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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ron Hill on April 7, 2003, at 14:21:52
In reply to To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol club, posted by glenn on April 7, 2003, at 13:24:33
Posted by glenn on April 7, 2003, at 15:32:05
In reply to How much are the cortisol club membership dues ? (nm) » glenn, posted by Ron Hill on April 7, 2003, at 14:21:52
Very good ron!!
Hows about a two week supply of ru-486 !
Glenn
Posted by stjames on April 7, 2003, at 17:50:07
In reply to To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol club, posted by glenn on April 7, 2003, at 13:24:33
> Down with Cortisol!( the clubs motto- lol )
Too bad Cortisol is nessecary for one to function
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 7, 2003, at 18:20:51
In reply to To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol club, posted by glenn on April 7, 2003, at 13:24:33
My brain and I are thrilled to belong to such an exclusive club! After all, not just any hippocampus can get in.
Pfinstegg
Thanks so much for the information on Centrepointe and Seraphos, Glenn- I'll follow it up.
Posted by jerrympls on April 7, 2003, at 22:44:18
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol club, posted by stjames on April 7, 2003, at 17:50:07
> > Down with Cortisol!( the clubs motto- lol )
>
>
> Too bad Cortisol is nessecary for one to functionHey! What about us with LOW cortisol levels? I take 10mg of hydrocortisone and when I miss a dose I spiral downward! Anyone in the club know if LOW cortisol levels are just a as "bad" as high cortisol levels??
Thanks!
Jerry
Posted by bozeman on April 8, 2003, at 0:22:03
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by jerrympls on April 7, 2003, at 22:44:18
Yup. As with many things, while too much is a bad thing, not enough is also a bad thing, just not in exactly the same way. But still bad.
Every time some ^&(@# tries to run me over on the freeway and I have that "heart-pound-wrench-jerk-blood-pressure-through-the-roof" reaction, if I don't pull over and take an *extra* dose of hydrocortisone right then, I'll be bottoming out and nearly passing out within ten to fifteen minutes. Not good in traffic.
As always, YMMV.
bozeman
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 8, 2003, at 8:48:21
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c » jerrympls, posted by bozeman on April 8, 2003, at 0:22:03
I recently read a single article about how war veterans and rape victims with PTSD often have very LOW 24-hour cortisols. Their adrenal glands apparently become exhausted by the stress of their terrible experiences and can not produce a normal surge of cortisol in response to a "normal"stressor. Is this similiar to what you both experience?
Do you need to take the extra cortisone on a regular basis? I would be concerned that that would make your adrenal glands gradually smaller and less reactive over a period of years, so that you would become dependent upon the cortisone, and that you also might develop some of the major side effects such as osteoporosis. This can happen quite rapidly with regular cortisone use. I have seen a patient treated with 5mg. daily of dexamethasone (for an autoimmune disorder) develop 8 spontaneous vertebral fractures and a tremendous amount of pain and disability, after just five years. If someone absolutely has to take regular cortisone, they should probably also be taking one of the bone-protective drugs like Edronax.
I am unsure about what might be a better aproach, but was thinking along the lines of what people do when they have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I know that it is a very difficult condition to treat, but I'd like to get more familiar with some of the ideas which various people have put forth on the board here about CFS. Up until now, I haven't been reading those.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dave1 on April 8, 2003, at 10:39:05
In reply to low cortisol- Jerry mpls and bozeman, posted by Pfinstegg on April 8, 2003, at 8:48:21
Hi,
What is the standard test for cortisol?
Also, if you cortisol is normal should take drugs to block it and protect your hippocampus?
Still learning.Dave
Posted by linkadge on April 8, 2003, at 11:37:25
In reply to Re: low cortisol- Jerry mpls and bozeman, posted by Dave1 on April 8, 2003, at 10:39:05
There really is no 'normal' but a range. I would say If your cortisol is low and you feel little stress, then you are unlikely to suffer dammage to the hippocampus (at least from cortisol)
If you find yourself suffering stress related mood disorders (ie extreme/persisting lows after a stressfull event) this could be indicitive of some dammage to your hippocampus.
We are the latter. For some reason the cortisol our bodies release is too much/stays in the body too long, and does our system dammage.
For me, stressfull situations almost always induce a painful a sickeneing feeling that I just want to die. Trying to convince myself that the event will indeed end is useless. I have found a few items that do indeed help this sickening and persisting feeling. Large doses of vitamin c, lithium, ginkgo, and some other anticortisols seem to flush that feeling out.
I am waiting and hoping for something that will spedifically reduce that tension. I have a strong feeling that anticortisols will be those miracles.
Linkadge
Posted by Ron Hill on April 8, 2003, at 11:47:14
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c » jerrympls, posted by bozeman on April 8, 2003, at 0:22:03
Hi Bozeman,
> Every time some ^&(@# tries to run me over on the freeway and I have that "heart-pound-wrench-jerk-blood-pressure-through-the-roof" reaction ...
This is what high cortisol levels feel like, right?
> ... if I don't pull over and take an *extra* dose of hydrocortisone right then, I'll be bottoming out and nearly passing out within ten to fifteen minutes.
And the "nearly passing out" feeling is due to low cortisol, correct?
Thanks for taking time to clarify this for me.
-- Ron
P.S. There is a town in the state of Montana (US) named after you.
Posted by Dave1 on April 8, 2003, at 12:58:24
In reply to Re: low cortisol- Jerry mpls and bozeman, posted by linkadge on April 8, 2003, at 11:37:25
Should I take something to block the cortisol, like the antidepressant tianeman which PFINSTEGG takes or something else. Also, how do I get my pdoc to give it to me. I brought up the cortisol thing once and he brushed it off saying alot of chemicals effect your brain
thanks,
dave
Posted by stjames on April 8, 2003, at 14:44:53
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by jerrympls on April 7, 2003, at 22:44:18
> > > Down with Cortisol!( the clubs motto- lol )
> >
> >
> > Too bad Cortisol is nessecary for one to function
>
> Hey! What about us with LOW cortisol levels? I take 10mg of hydrocortisone and when I miss a dose I spiral downward! Anyone in the club know if LOW cortisol levels are just a as "bad" as high cortisol levels??
>
> Thanks!
> JerrySame with me, I required cortisone ingections for
several years, just to live.I am conserved with statements like "Down with Cortisol!" being made as it gives a false impression. People get their facts from this board
and we don't want folks to think the answer to their problems is getting rid of all Cortisol.
To do that would cause death.
Posted by glenn on April 8, 2003, at 17:39:17
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by stjames on April 8, 2003, at 14:44:53
I take your point, however I would hope that anyone reading this would read the whole thread and get themselves tested before either attempting to either lower or increase their cortisol levels!
It also helps to have a sense of humour?! yours does not seem to be working too well today!Glenn
Posted by stjames on April 8, 2003, at 18:56:17
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by glenn on April 8, 2003, at 17:39:17
> I take your point, however I would hope that anyone reading this would read the whole thread and get themselves tested before either attempting to either lower or increase their cortisol levels!
> It also helps to have a sense of humour?! yours does not seem to be working too well today!
>
> GlennIt is hard to tell when one is joking as the issues are serious.
Posted by jerrympls on April 8, 2003, at 20:27:57
In reply to low cortisol- Jerry mpls and bozeman, posted by Pfinstegg on April 8, 2003, at 8:48:21
> I recently read a single article about how war veterans and rape victims with PTSD often have very LOW 24-hour cortisols. Their adrenal glands apparently become exhausted by the stress of their terrible experiences and can not produce a normal surge of cortisol in response to a "normal"stressor. Is this similiar to what you both experience?
>
> Do you need to take the extra cortisone on a regular basis? I would be concerned that that would make your adrenal glands gradually smaller and less reactive over a period of years, so that you would become dependent upon the cortisone, and that you also might develop some of the major side effects such as osteoporosis. This can happen quite rapidly with regular cortisone use. I have seen a patient treated with 5mg. daily of dexamethasone (for an autoimmune disorder) develop 8 spontaneous vertebral fractures and a tremendous amount of pain and disability, after just five years. If someone absolutely has to take regular cortisone, they should probably also be taking one of the bone-protective drugs like Edronax.
>
> I am unsure about what might be a better aproach, but was thinking along the lines of what people do when they have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I know that it is a very difficult condition to treat, but I'd like to get more familiar with some of the ideas which various people have put forth on the board here about CFS. Up until now, I haven't been reading those.
>
> PfinsteggFascinating! What you state above is striking similar to my reaction to stress. I've had only the 24-hr cortisol urine screen - twice. I have a great endocrinologist who likes to be sure about things. Also, I had some sort of adrenal function test where they took blood and then gave me a shot of something that "would trigger my adrenal glands to react.." then, after 30 mins they took another blood sample. That test came back normal. Anyways- I wouldn't say the hydrocortisone i take greatly increases my mood - however, I can certainly tell when it seems to wear off - say around 7-8pm - even though hydrocortisone has a long half-life - I begin to feel very lonely and get a knot of hoplessness in my stomach - hard to explain. I have been trying to keep myself educated on the effects of long-term cortisol treatment. I see my endo dr. on the 25th - so we'll see what he says. He also has me on testosterone replacement - and I think that helps a little too. I often wonder if the Lexapro, Seroquel, Dexedrine, Xanax - yada yada are working against the testosterone/cortisol therapy. Not sure.
Anyways, thanks for the info - and I'll keep y'all posted after I see my dr.
OH - and my hemoglobin is low too - but he doesn't have me on anything for that. Anyone have any info regarding those low levels??
Posted by bozeman on April 9, 2003, at 1:25:41
In reply to Re: low cortisol- Jerry mpls and bozeman » Pfinstegg, posted by jerrympls on April 8, 2003, at 20:27:57
Going to try to answer several posts in one so I can get to bed. I apologize for the confusion of answering several in one.
> > > I recently read a single article about how war veterans and rape victims with PTSD often have very LOW 24-hour cortisols. Their adrenal glands apparently become exhausted by the stress of their terrible experiences and can not produce a normal surge of cortisol in response to a "normal"stressor. Is this similiar to what you both experience?
> > >I suspect this is exactly what happened to me.
> > >Do you need to take the extra cortisone on a regular basis? I would be concerned that that would make your adrenal glands gradually smaller and less reactive over a period of years, so that you would become dependent upon the cortisone, and that you also might develop some of the major side effects such as osteoporosis. This can happen quite rapidly with regular cortisone use. I have seen a patient treated with 5mg. daily of dexamethasone (for an autoimmune disorder) develop 8 spontaneous vertebral fractures and a tremendous amount of pain and disability, after just five years. If someone absolutely has to take regular cortisone, they should probably also be taking one of the bone-protective drugs like Edronax.
> > >I'm not sure much anything could make my adrenals *less* reactive. :-) My doctor tried for over two years to get my adrenals functioning normally using less drastic measures (I'm not even sure what pieces of what we're doing are targeted at the adrenals.) But cortisol production would not normalize. Hence the supplementation (5 mg 3 or 4 times per day.) Not intended to be permanent -- hopefully not, anyway. At this point, I definitely have no signs of any of the dread adrenal diseases (that I know of) -- I'm female, appear normal and look well to most people (just don't feel well, and am basically a shadow of my former self and capabilities.) Predisone is probably to blame for my adrenal problems (don't ask. I've changed doctors since then, and that's a big part of why.)
> > >I am unsure about what might be a better aproach, but was thinking along the lines of what people do when they have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I know that it is a very difficult condition to treat, but I'd like to get more familiar with some of the ideas which various people have put forth on the board here about CFS. Up until now, I haven't been reading those.
> > >
> > >PfinsteggI take magnesium maleate, and it sure doesn't hurt. But then I take about six different forms of Mg. My intracellular levels had gotten ridiculously low, so low my doctor didn't believe it -- thought the lab had made a mistake and made them run the test again with a new tissue sample.) I get crampy (legs, arms, feet, fingers, back, between ribs, jaw, etc.) and shaky if I don't keep my magnesium intake high. Other than that and the DHEA, I'm not sure what is CFS-specific in my treatment. Depression and CFS can mimic each other, so it's hard to tell which is acting up, sometimes. I take Lexapro, allergy pills, and a ton of supplements -- the doctor and I debate regularly which ones I can discontinue, but for now, she wins, I stay on them all.
> >
> >Fascinating! What you state above is striking similar to my reaction to stress. I've had only the 24-hr cortisol urine screen - twice. I have a great endocrinologist who likes to be sure about things. Also, I had some sort of adrenal function test where they took blood and then gave me a shot of something that "would trigger my adrenal glands to react.." then, after 30 mins they took another blood sample. That test came back normal.
> >I think it's called a "cortrisyn stimulation test" or something like that. Mine was in the toilet. That shot is supposed to stimulate your adrenals to produce cortisol. My adrenals basically ignored the shot. :-(
> >Anyways- I wouldn't say the hydrocortisone i take greatly increases my mood - however, I can certainly tell when it seems to wear off - say around 7-8pm - even though hydrocortisone has a long half-life - I begin to feel very lonely and get a knot of hoplessness in my stomach - hard to explain. I have been trying to keep myself educated on the effects of long-term cortisol treatment. I see my endo dr. on the 25th - so we'll see what he says. He also has me on testosterone replacement - and I think that helps a little too. I often wonder if the Lexapro, Seroquel, Dexedrine, Xanax - yada yada are working against the testosterone/cortisol therapy. Not sure.
> >I can't tell that it makes me feel like it does you . . . interesting. I can't tell that it affects my mood at all. But it does make me feel more . . . resilient, in a physical sense. Like my blood pressure doesn't drop every time I stand up so I don't get that "going to black out" feeling. I can carry grocieries, etc. without feeling faint. Much of the last several years, even while depressed, the mind has been willing but the body weak. The hydrocortisone/cortisol replacement/whatever it is helps with that. I just don't feel as weak. When things happen that demand a response -- I can respond, now, and I couldn't, for many years.
Someone asked about the feeling you get when you nearly get run over on the freeway -- I always referred to it (in my own mind) as "adrenaline shock" -- something happens and stimulates your "fight or flight" response. I'm not at all sure, but I thought cortisol was what enabled your body to actually respond (on a cellular level) to the "fight or flight" mechanism. You know, the stuff we read about "She had superhuman strength", "He ran like Forrest Gump to get away from those guys " etc. That's the piece I no longer have. I get the "fight or flight" response, but then I collapse because I have nothing to respond to it with, if that makes any sense. This article (though not exceptionally scientific, it's an easy read) explains it in basic terms.
http://www.linezine.com/4.3/themes/ksbmboa.htm
Hope that helps.
And yes, I always wanted to move to Montana, hence the screen name. I think it's absolutely beautiful.
Obscure movie quote: (must be read with a thick Russian accent)
Borodin: Do you think they will let me live in Montana?
Capt. Ramius: I would think they'll let you live wherever you want.
Borodin: Good. Then I will live in Montana. And I will marry a round American woman, and raise rabbits, and she will cook them for me. And I will have a pick-up truck, or umm... possibly even...a recreational vehicle, and drive from state to state. Do they let you do that?
Capt. Ramius: Oh yes.
Borodin: No papers?
Capt. Ramius: No papers. State-to-state.Goodnight from a wanna-be Big Sky resident
bozeman
Posted by glenn on April 9, 2003, at 4:14:54
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by stjames on April 8, 2003, at 18:56:17
Well I always thought lol actually meant laugh out loud, I obviously got that one wrong!
Glenn
Posted by stjames on April 9, 2003, at 10:13:39
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by glenn on April 9, 2003, at 4:14:54
> Well I always thought lol actually meant laugh out loud, I obviously got that one wrong!
>
> GlennAnd there are also people now asking "How do I block cortisol, it is bad". So, as you see, people
do read and base their treatments on misinformation here. And no, they don't seem to read the whole thread.
Posted by glenn on April 9, 2003, at 11:10:18
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by stjames on April 9, 2003, at 10:13:39
People are reading and then asking questions??
That is bad???
You sound like the consultant I saw who told me that patients who read about their conditions were dangerous.
Correct me if I am wrong but has anyone on here said that they have gone out and bought some ketoconazole and taken a quick slug to get their cortisol down?
I personally beleive that patients taking an interest in their illnesses is a good thing as is seeking information, it is right that they question and check anything they find on here
but if asking about any matter including cortisol is frowned upon here then I am clearly in the wrong place!Glenn
Posted by bozeman on April 9, 2003, at 18:21:26
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c » bozeman, posted by Ron Hill on April 8, 2003, at 11:47:14
>Hi Bozeman,
>
> >Every time some ^&(@# tries to run me over on the freeway and I have that "heart-pound-wrench-jerk-blood-pressure-through-the-roof" reaction ...
> >
>
>This is what high cortisol levels feel like, right?
>Hi Ron -- the feeling nearly getting run over on the freeway -- I always referred to it (in my own mind) as "adrenaline shock" -- something happens and stimulates your "fight or flight" response. I'm not at all sure, but I thought cortisol was what enabled your body to actually respond (on a cellular level) to the "fight or flight" adrenalin mechanism. I get the "fight or flight" response, but then I collapse because I have nothing to respond to it with, if that makes any sense.
This article (though not exceptionally scientific, it's an easy read) explains it in basic terms.
http://www.linezine.com/4.3/themes/ksbmboa.htm
> > ... if I don't pull over and take an *extra* dose of hydrocortisone right then, I'll be bottoming out and nearly passing out within ten to fifteen minutes.
>
>And the "nearly passing out" feeling is due to low cortisol, correct?
>
>Thanks for taking time to clarify this for me.
>
>-- RonI believe so, yes.
>
> P.S. There is a town in the state of Montana (US) named after you
>Yes, I always wanted to move to Montana, hence the screen name. I think it's absolutely beautiful.
Must be read with a thick Russian accent
Borodin: Do you think they will let me live in Montana?
Capt. Ramius: I would think they'll let you live wherever you want.
Borodin: Good. Then I will live in Montana. And I will marry a round American woman, and raise rabbits, and she will cook them for me. And I will have a pick-up truck, or umm... possibly even...a recreational vehicle, and drive from state to state. Do they let you do that?
Capt. Ramius: Oh yes.
Borodin: No papers?
Capt. Ramius: No papers. State-to-state.<grin>
I'm the only girl I know who quotes Clancy movies. :-)bozeman
Posted by bozeman on April 9, 2003, at 18:24:21
In reply to Re: low cortisol- Jerry mpls and bozeman, posted by Dave1 on April 8, 2003, at 10:39:05
Some doctors do a 24-hr. urine cortisol test, some do the cortrisyn stimulation test (where they draw blood, give you the hormone shot, then draw blood 30 minutes later.) I don't know in which circumstances, which test is more useful, but Pfinstegg could probably tell you?
I wouldn't think you would need to block cortisol if it's normal. That could cause harm in different ways, I think (not enough is bad, as is too much cortisol.)
Hope this helps. Good luck.
bozeman
Posted by jerrympls on April 9, 2003, at 19:57:34
In reply to Re: low cortisol- Jerry mpls and bozeman » Dave1, posted by bozeman on April 9, 2003, at 18:24:21
> Some doctors do a 24-hr. urine cortisol test, some do the cortrisyn stimulation test (where they draw blood, give you the hormone shot, then draw blood 30 minutes later.) I don't know in which circumstances, which test is more useful, but Pfinstegg could probably tell you?
>
> I wouldn't think you would need to block cortisol if it's normal. That could cause harm in different ways, I think (not enough is bad, as is too much cortisol.)
>
> Hope this helps. Good luck.
>
> bozeman
Yeah - I had both of those tests performed - the urine one he had me to twice. The weird thing was that the adrenal stimulation test (where they draw blood) was all normal - but both 24-hr urine screens showed low levels of cortisol.Go figure?
Posted by stjames on April 9, 2003, at 23:42:24
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by glenn on April 9, 2003, at 11:10:18
I only have a problem with posts with unknown users asking only how to reduse cortisol and being told what to do, with no information.
Cortisol is the flavor on this month, but
it has wide effects on many of the most basic
life functions. It can kill you if you have too much or not enough. At one point it was a cure
for depression. It is very effective, till you
go psychotic, damage your optic nerves, lose
a lot of bone, get an infection and your body
cannot bring it under control, ect. I can't recall
if the cortisol like drugs cause cancer, but many
harmones can.I have about 15 years experience on being on
cortisone, first by mouth and later by injection
once or twice a month. Celestone, Decadron LA, and Kenaloge. I know them all. At least 4 years
of 24/7, 356 use of Kenaloge at the end. I am now
about 4 years off this, and have lost some bone
but may not of damaged my optic nerves. I was not
as selective with docs or informed at first so a stupid doc withdrew me too fast and I went into adrenal crisis. Then there was the fun time I was given too much and cleaned the house with a toothbrush for 3 days, without sleeping.cortisol is a dangerous drug if there is too much or too little and the only way to know is to test.
To poke around with the cortisol levels without
knowing 1) a lifetime of knowlage of endocronology
2) tests, one is playing with fire.
Posted by stthomas on June 11, 2003, at 11:54:54
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c, posted by stjames on April 9, 2003, at 23:42:24
stjames - Thanks for your post. A couple of questions: 1) I assume that your Cortisol is low? (based on the fact that you were taking a supplement) 2) what are you doing to supplement you adrenals now so that you can function if you are not using a steriod?
THKS
StThomas
> I only have a problem with posts with unknown users asking only how to reduse cortisol and being told what to do, with no information.
> Cortisol is the flavor on this month, but
> it has wide effects on many of the most basic
> life functions. It can kill you if you have too much or not enough. At one point it was a cure
> for depression. It is very effective, till you
> go psychotic, damage your optic nerves, lose
> a lot of bone, get an infection and your body
> cannot bring it under control, ect. I can't recall
> if the cortisol like drugs cause cancer, but many
> harmones can.
>
> I have about 15 years experience on being on
> cortisone, first by mouth and later by injection
> once or twice a month. Celestone, Decadron LA, and Kenaloge. I know them all. At least 4 years
> of 24/7, 356 use of Kenaloge at the end. I am now
> about 4 years off this, and have lost some bone
> but may not of damaged my optic nerves. I was not
> as selective with docs or informed at first so a stupid doc withdrew me too fast and I went into adrenal crisis. Then there was the fun time I was given too much and cleaned the house with a toothbrush for 3 days, without sleeping.
>
> cortisol is a dangerous drug if there is too much or too little and the only way to know is to test.
> To poke around with the cortisol levels without
> knowing 1) a lifetime of knowlage of endocronology
> 2) tests, one is playing with fire.
>
>
>
>
Posted by jerrympls on June 11, 2003, at 20:02:41
In reply to Re: To Pfinstegg and all members of the cortisol c » stjames, posted by stthomas on June 11, 2003, at 11:54:54
My cortisol has been checked MANY times because I have all the symptoms of HIGH cortisol levels but the tests always come back indicating LOW levels. However, they're not low enough to indicate anything like Addison's Disease - but low enough my endocrinologist thought I should be on a small amount of oral cortisol replacement meds. So, I take 10mg in the morning and 5 early evening. It has a small, but noticable POSITIVE effect upon my mood/depression. Nothing to write a book about or anything.
I did talk to my dr. about the dangers/warnings etc of long-term cortisol placement and he explained things to me (I was so appreciative that he was eager to explain!) and said that 15mg of hydrocortisone is far from dangerous and that it takes much much higher dosages to be "dangerous" - i.e. adrenal crisis if you stop taking it, etc etc.
This is MY experience and I am not saying EVERYONE will be fine on cortisol replacement, etc. But I thought I'd post because I really trust my doc and he's one of the best in the city (teaches, researches at the U of M). So, I'm still a member of the cortisol club, but I don't think it's the miracle cure....but if it helps a little - then thank God.
This is the end of the thread.
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