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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by KaraS on March 8, 2005, at 20:09:56
In reply to Parnate 20mg, Day 6, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 8, 2005, at 14:48:55
> First, my apologies for being away from the board for a few days without an update -- I've just been having so much fun getting out with friends and truly enjoying myself for once! I mean, I thought Adderall was great for my depression, but it did cause me to eventually begin to isolate myself a bit. Parnate, on the other hand, is already a dream come true. I think I may even put off going up to 30mg for now (though I'll have to talk with my pdoc about it Friday)! The only side effect I've experienced is moderate insomnia, which responds very well to 300mg secobarbital or 1,200mg meprobamate (I'm switching back and forth as I've found it prevents a tolerance from developing to either drug).
>
> I've also found the dietary restrictions, thusfar anyway, to be more "forgiving" than they were with Nardil. I'll continue to remain vigilant on this matter, though, as I know full MAO inhibition hasn't yet been reached.
>
> All in all, I'd describe my current state of being as a *true* complete remission, and I have past experiences with 50+ drugs to back that assertion up. There's a mild-moderate noticeable stimulation, but it's purely mental for me and much less coarse than amphetamines.
>
> I have to run, but I'll actually try to keep up with the board this time, lol -- I'll check back later on tonight.
>
> ~MichaelHi Michael,
It's wonderful to read that you're doing so well. It's such a short amount of time and such a low dose though. Are you sure you're not just experiencing the intial amphetamine-like effects that people often describe upon start-up of Parnate? Also, everything I've read and seen posted leads me to believe that Parnate is much less forgiving in terms of dietary restriction so definitely be careful if/when you escalate the dosage. Overall though, I think this is going to be a great drug for you. I'm really glad it's working out so well.
Take care and keep us posted.
Kara
Posted by Maxime on March 8, 2005, at 21:34:30
In reply to Parnate 20mg, Day 6, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 8, 2005, at 14:48:55
I'm glad it is working so well for you. I remember when I first took that med and it helped so much.
How on earth did you get a doctor to prescribe secobarbital?
Maxime
> First, my apologies for being away from the board for a few days without an update -- I've just been having so much fun getting out with friends and truly enjoying myself for once! I mean, I thought Adderall was great for my depression, but it did cause me to eventually begin to isolate myself a bit. Parnate, on the other hand, is already a dream come true. I think I may even put off going up to 30mg for now (though I'll have to talk with my pdoc about it Friday)! The only side effect I've experienced is moderate insomnia, which responds very well to 300mg secobarbital or 1,200mg meprobamate (I'm switching back and forth as I've found it prevents a tolerance from developing to either drug).
>
> I've also found the dietary restrictions, thusfar anyway, to be more "forgiving" than they were with Nardil. I'll continue to remain vigilant on this matter, though, as I know full MAO inhibition hasn't yet been reached.
>
> All in all, I'd describe my current state of being as a *true* complete remission, and I have past experiences with 50+ drugs to back that assertion up. There's a mild-moderate noticeable stimulation, but it's purely mental for me and much less coarse than amphetamines.
>
> I have to run, but I'll actually try to keep up with the board this time, lol -- I'll check back later on tonight.
>
> ~Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 7:33:07
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2005, at 17:46:56
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 7:51:13
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Ame Sans Vie, posted by KaraS on March 8, 2005, at 20:09:56
Hi Kara!
> It's wonderful to read that you're doing so well. It's such a short amount of time and such a low dose though. Are you sure you're not just experiencing the intial amphetamine-like effects that people often describe upon start-up of Parnate?
Actually, I'm pretty certain that *is* what I'm experiencing, but I've no complaints, lol. There is also a very noticeable effect creeping up on me that seems incredibly soothing and "evening". I'm assuming that would be the MAO inhibition gradually becoming stronger... ?
> Also, everything I've read and seen posted leads me to believe that Parnate is much less forgiving in terms of dietary restriction so definitely be careful if/when you escalate the dosage.
Yes, same here -- of course, right now it's a bit of apples and oranges: I was on Nardil at 120mg for six months, while today's dose of Parnate completes one week with the first three days at 10mg, now up to 20mg. I constantly monitor my blood pressure, still avoid what very few foods there are on the list (as well as *anything* that may not be fresh, i.e., fast food), and have nifedipine and chlorpromazine to take in the remote chance of a hypertensive crisis.
> Overall though, I think this is going to be a great drug for you. I'm really glad it's working out so well.
I really think so too, and thank you!
~Michael
Posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 7:54:08
In reply to Parnate 20mg, Day 6, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 8, 2005, at 14:48:55
Hi Michael,
>I think I may even put off going up to 30mg for now.
Yes, you should definitely not increase the dose since you're feeling so great! Only if it starts to poop-out should you consider an increase, there's no point in taking more than you need :-)
Best Regards,
Ed.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 7:58:18
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6, posted by Maxime on March 8, 2005, at 21:34:30
>How on earth did you get a doctor to prescribe secobarbital?
I have a history of unresponsiveness to anything sedating, likely due to my high-dose Klonopin usage during the day (8mg). Ambien, Sonata, Halcion, Dalmane, Doral, ProSom, Restoril, Remeron, Desyrel, Elavil, Sinequan, phenobarbital, mephobarbital, and chloral hydrate have long since stopped working for me (and most of them never worked at all). I don't think Lunesta is even worth a shot. Meprobamate, Seconal, and Nembutal are all that works for me, so it doesn't leave my doctors with much of a choice.
Take care,
~Michael
Posted by cubbybear on March 9, 2005, at 8:00:46
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » KaraS, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 7:51:13
Hi Michael,
I'm very happy for you that you seem to have struck it rich with Parnate. If indeed you attain full therapeutic benefit (including remisison of depression) from a mere 20 mg./day, I think that would be quite rare. Please talk to your doctor about that, so you don't wind up having a relapse and mistakenly think that the Parnate pooped out, when in fact you were not taking an adequate therapeutic dose.My next question, which i've wondered about all this time--is what does "ames san vie" mean?
best of luck, cubbybear
Posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 8:26:51
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Ame Sans Vie, posted by cubbybear on March 9, 2005, at 8:00:46
Hello,
> what does "ames san vie" mean?
I think it means lifeless soul, or 'soul without life'.
>Please talk to your doctor about that, so you don't wind up having a relapse and mistakenly think that the Parnate pooped out, when in fact you were not taking an adequate therapeutic dose.
It would make sense to wait and see whether it does poop-out though, because it might not. What constitutes an adequate therapeutic dose varies greatly from person to person.
Best Regards,
Ed.
Posted by Phillipa on March 9, 2005, at 13:55:27
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » cubbybear, posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 8:26:51
Boy you must have a tolerance. I took meprobomate 450mg with valium years ago, but gave it up on my own when I felt better. I'm now in the process of giving up chloral hydrate liquid after 8yrs use. I'm taking l5mg remeron and l0mg valium now to sleep and it works. May I ask how much chloral hydrate you took, and how long it worked for you. You're the first person on this Board that I've heard has taken this med. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 14:47:49
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Ame Sans Vie, posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 7:54:08
> Yes, you should definitely not increase the dose since you're feeling so great! Only if it starts to poop-out should you consider an increase, there's no point in taking more than you need :-)
Exactly my thinking, as well as the fact that I know many people develop tolerance to Parnate over time and so the lower I can keep my dose at any given time, the better!
~Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 14:53:41
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Ame Sans Vie, posted by cubbybear on March 9, 2005, at 8:00:46
> Hi Michael,
> I'm very happy for you that you seem to have struck it rich with Parnate. If indeed you attain full therapeutic benefit (including remisison of depression) from a mere 20 mg./day, I think that would be quite rare. Please talk to your doctor about that, so you don't wind up having a relapse and mistakenly think that the Parnate pooped out, when in fact you were not taking an adequate therapeutic dose.I'm surprised at my response as well, especially considering the relatively high doses of amphetamines I required (not to mention my enormous tolerance for other drugs). I have spoken with my doctor about this already, actually, to feel him out concerning how high he'd be willing to push the dose if required, as I know some people end up needing hundreds of milligrams per day. He says the sky's the limit, barring unwanted adverse reactions.
> My next question, which i've wondered about all this time--is what does "ames san vie" mean?
Ed_uk hit the nail on the head -- "soul without life", or "lifeless soul", in French. Kind of a downer, I know, lol, but everyone has known be by that name here and elsewhere on the net for ten years.
~Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 15:03:07
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6, posted by Phillipa on March 9, 2005, at 13:55:27
> Boy you must have a tolerance.
To put it quite mildly! :-) I envy my mother and sister who can take a milligram of Xanax XR and be set for most of the day. Ever since I first began taking benzodiazepines in a "self-medicating" fashion at the age of 16 six years ago, four milligrams of immediate-release Xanax was the bare minimum that worked for me.
> I took meprobomate 450mg with valium years ago, but gave it up on my own when I felt better. I'm now in the process of giving up chloral hydrate liquid after 8yrs use. I'm taking l5mg remeron and l0mg valium now to sleep and it works. May I ask how much chloral hydrate you took, and how long it worked for you. You're the first person on this Board that I've heard has taken this med.
Yeah, it is pretty rarely prescribed these days, especially outside of pediatrics and veterinary medicine, it seems. I find it to be rather ridiculous as it has much less abuse potential than benzos or the newer drugs replacing them as hypnotics (Ambien, Sonata, Imovane, Lunesta). Besides, for me anyway, it works a lot better too.
I took Somnote (comes in blister packs of 500mg gelcaps) 2,000mg at night, alternating with Tuinal (amobarbital/secobarbital combination) to avoid tolerance. This went on for about a year while I was prescribed amphetamines for depression.
Best of luck coming off the chloral -- I know it can be hard, especially after eight years! But the Remeron and Valium should help with that quite a bit.
Take care,
~Michael
Posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 15:28:33
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Phillipa, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 15:03:07
Hi Ame,
>Yeah, it is pretty rarely prescribed these days, especially outside of pediatrics and veterinary medicine, it seems.
I've worked in a few pharmacies (in England). Most people who take Seconal are very old- I guess they've been on it for decades~! A lot of them are in nursing homes, often in their 90s or ever 100! The same goes for Amytal, Sodium Amytal, Tuinal and Soneryl.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 9, 2005, at 21:10:35
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Ame Sans Vie » cubbybear, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 14:53:41
> "soul without life", or "lifeless soul", in French. Kind of a downer, I know, lol, but everyone has known be by that name here and elsewhere on the net for ten years.
Maybe 10 years is long enough? How would one say "soul with life" in French? :-)
Bob
Posted by cubbybear on March 10, 2005, at 1:24:19
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6 » Ame Sans Vie » cubbybear, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 9, 2005, at 14:53:41
I have spoken with my doctor about this already, actually, to feel him out concerning how high he'd be willing to push the dose if required, as I know some people end up needing hundreds of milligrams per day. He says the sky's the limit, barring unwanted adverse reactions.
>
I'm always amazed at hearing how many people do well on doses in excess of 70 mg/day. My thinking has been (wrongfully) shaped by the patient insert which simply states therapeutic dose up to 60 mg/day, and Glaxosmith Kline evidently refuses to update the insert to reflect the liberalized diet restrictions and changes in thinking about high doses.
I still wonder, though, if you don't have insurance, wouldn't high doses get to be quite expensive? And if you are covered by insurance, hasn't the insurance company established a limit as to how high a dose they will pay for? Seems that these people have mastered the art of denying payment for every reason imaginable, so I wonder if they've set a maximum reimbursement vis a vis Parnate dosage. Just curious. cubbybear
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 10:39:35
In reply to Re: Short-acting barbiturates » Ame Sans Vie, posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 15:28:33
> >Yeah, it is pretty rarely prescribed these days, especially outside of pediatrics and veterinary medicine, it seems.
>
> I've worked in a few pharmacies (in England). Most people who take Seconal are very old- I guess they've been on it for decades~! A lot of them are in nursing homes, often in their 90s or ever 100! The same goes for Amytal, Sodium Amytal, Tuinal and Soneryl.I was actually talking about chloral hydrate when I made the above remark -- you're certainly right that short-acting barbiturates are something of a dinosaur these days outside of hospital medicine and the elderly who've been dependent on them for 20, 30, 40+ years. Phenobarbital and Mebaral both seem to remain popular in pediatric use for epilepsy, however.
~Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 10:42:50
In reply to Re: Kind of a downer, posted by Dr. Bob on March 9, 2005, at 21:10:35
> > "soul without life", or "lifeless soul", in French. Kind of a downer, I know, lol, but everyone has known be by that name here and elsewhere on the net for ten years.
>
> Maybe 10 years is long enough? How would one say "soul with life" in French? :-)
>
> Boblol, perhaps you're right! I'm sure everyone would still recognize me with only a slightly altered name. :-)
I'll announce it in Admin and/or Social when I change it -- "soul with life" would be "Ame Avec Vie", which has a nice ring to it. :-)
~Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 10:55:12
In reply to Re: Parnate 20mg, Day 6, posted by cubbybear on March 10, 2005, at 1:24:19
> I still wonder, though, if you don't have insurance, wouldn't high doses get to be quite expensive? And if you are covered by insurance, hasn't the insurance company established a limit as to how high a dose they will pay for? Seems that these people have mastered the art of denying payment for every reason imaginable, so I wonder if they've set a maximum reimbursement vis a vis Parnate dosage. Just curious. cubbybear
At the moment I still rely on Medicaid to pay for any medications I take aside from clonazepam, meprobamate and Seconal, which I pay out of pocket for due to the three-prescription-per-month limit. Normally, though, at least in Texas, Medicaid won't reimburse for more than 100 tablets of Parnate in one prescription, which would mean 300 tablets per month (100mg / day) would be my upper limit. However, my new pdoc has worked with them to prearrange for the possibility of higher doses should they prove necessary, and Medicaid has agreed to pay for whatever is necessary considering my history of extreme treatment-resistance. After all, it is much less expensive than ECT or many other drugs I've been on, e.g., Provigil and Desoxyn!
Also, I of course do not want to rely on the State to pay for my drugs for the rest of my life, and I really struck gold the other day when I took an old computer monitor to a local repair shop for an extra $20 only to be offered a full-time position as server administrator for small businesses! Apparently they've been looking for someone who knows Linux and Unix for quite some time, so my switching from Windows to Linux and the resultant in-depth studying I've done into programming has really paid off! Parnate costs about $1 per tablet, and it (even at this early point in treatment) is worth more than its weight in gold to me and I'd be willing to pay however much it ends up costing me.
~Michael
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 11:07:16
In reply to Re: Short-acting barbiturates » ed_uk, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 10:39:35
Hi ame,
>I was actually talking about chloral hydrate when I made the above remark.
Oops sorry, I didn't read your post that carefully :-S You're right about chloral, it's sometimes used as a paediatric pre-med, midazolam seems to be replacing it to some extent. Welldorm tablets (chloral betaine) are prescribed in a similar manner to Amytal, Seconal etc.
>Mebaral
We don't have mephobarbital here!
Best regards,
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 11:10:12
In reply to Re: Kind of a downer » Dr. Bob, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 10:42:50
>I'll announce it in Admin and/or Social when I change it
No! Don't change it, it's a cool name, I like it! Are you secretly French?
Ed.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 11:50:19
In reply to Re: Kind of a downer » Ame Sans Vie, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 11:10:12
> >I'll announce it in Admin and/or Social when I change it
>
> No! Don't change it, it's a cool name, I like it! Are you secretly French?lol, no, I'm "secretly" Texan, actually... or Pennsylvanian... or Californian... depends on whether one defines that sort of thing by birth (California), childhood home (Pennsylvania), or current residence (Texas). :-)
I've just always been fascinated by languages and began to teach myself French at the age of 12, along with a multitude of other languages (e.g., Russian, Latin, Spanish, Italian, German, Kiswahili, Japanese, Mandarin, Arabic, Irish Gaelic) most of which I've sadly forgotten. My French is still pretty up to par, though, and currently I'm taking a step in another linguistic direction -- studying the evolution of the English language and learning the grammar and vocabulary of Chaucer's English (I've already gotten the pronunciation down -- *beautiful* language).
I really like my name too, but it certainly doesn't reflect how I feel inside anymore... perhaps I should initiate a poll on Social? What do you think? :-)
Of course, I'm also totally open to other suggestions, either in French or English that I could translate into French. :-)
Take care,
~Michael
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 11:57:29
In reply to Re: Short-acting barbiturates, Chloral etc... » Ame Sans Vie, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 11:07:16
> Hi ame,
>
> >I was actually talking about chloral hydrate when I made the above remark.
>
> Oops sorry, I didn't read your post that carefully :-S You're right about chloral, it's sometimes used as a paediatric pre-med, midazolam seems to be replacing it to some extent.Yes, I'd heard that about midazolam, and considering its strong propensity to induce anterograde amnesia I imagine it would be more helpful in a pre-surgical setting than any form of chloral.
I'd also heard that, primarily outside the U.S., midazolam syrup is often used pediatrically to treat more severe forms of certain parasomnias. Was I misinformed, or is this really a valid use? Just curious.
> Welldorm tablets (chloral betaine) are prescribed in a similar manner to Amytal, Seconal etc.
I've never had chloral betaine... are its effects/indications much different than those for chloral hydrate?
> >Mebaral
>
> We don't have mephobarbital here!Oh, I wasn't aware of that -- ashamedly, I don't keep up as well as I should with international prescribing trends. :-)
~Michael
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 12:45:19
In reply to Re: Short-acting barbiturates, Chloral etc... » ed_uk, posted by Ame Sans Vie on March 10, 2005, at 11:57:29
Hi ame!
I was born, brought up and live in three towns which are very close together. I don't have such an interesting background :-)
>I've just always been fascinated by languages and began to teach myself French at the age of 12, along with a multitude of other languages (e.g., Russian, Latin, Spanish, Italian, German, Kiswahili, Japanese, Mandarin, Arabic, Irish Gaelic) most of which I've sadly forgotten. My French is still pretty up to par, though, and currently I'm taking a step in another linguistic direction -- studying the evolution of the English language and learning the grammar and vocabulary of Chaucer's English (I've already gotten the pronunciation down -- *beautiful* language).
That's amazing! How on earth did you find time to learn all those languages?
I did French for a few years at school but it was always my worst subject. I wanted to be good at it but I just didn't have the ability. I was good at science but dreadful at foreign languages.
You are a very interesting person. You seem to have taken practically every drug in Pihkal, do you still experiment?
>I really like my name too, but it certainly doesn't reflect how I feel inside anymore... perhaps I should initiate a poll on Social? What do you think? :-)
Maybe you should just call yourself 'ame', then it wouldn't matter how you were feeling. I think I prefer ame sans vie though, it's more unique. Yes, I think you should start a poll on social.
>I'd also heard that, primarily outside the U.S., midazolam syrup is often used pediatrically to treat more severe forms of certain parasomnias. Was I misinformed, or is this really a valid use? Just curious.
Oral midazolam syrup is apparantly popular in some countries, we don't have it in the UK though, we've just got the injection (Hypnovel). As far as I know, oral midazolam is popular as a premedication for children, I'm not sure whether it's used outside the hospital setting. In some countries, oral midazolam is used to treat insomnia in adults, not sure about children.
>I've never had chloral betaine... are its effects/indications much different than those for chloral hydrate?
They're virtually the same, chloral betaine rapidly dissociates in the stomach to release chloral hydrate.
>ashamedly, I don't keep up as well as I should with international prescribing trends.
Lol, you seem to have been keeping up with plenty of other things.
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 12:57:21
In reply to Re: Ame » Ame Sans Vie, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 12:45:19
BTW, chloral betaine 707 mg = chloral hydrate 414 mg.
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 13:04:45
In reply to Re: Ame » Ame Sans Vie, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2005, at 12:45:19
>You seem to have taken practically every drug in Pihkal, do you still experiment?
OK, maybe not while you're on Parnate!!
Ed.
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