Posted by linkadge on March 16, 2006, at 11:28:39
In reply to Re: Never thought I'd hear this..... » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 16, 2006, at 10:36:57
>They exhibit their depressive behaviors in the >absence of drugs.
Most of the time we induce depression in animals by subjecting them to repeated mild, chronic stressors. Genetically speaking, I am only aware of the flinders rats, which still really only exhibit depression in response to cholinergic drugs.
>This is the thing. To my knowledge, a rodent >model of mania in the absence of drugs does not >yet exist.I would argue that an animal model of depression, in the absence of chronic stressors, doesn't really exist.
>Also seen in non-manic humans taking >amphetamines and cocaine, no?I don't know what you would classify it as, but if a drug induced lack of sleep, hypersexuality, hyperhedonia, hallucinations, euphoria, hyperlocomotion, then I would say that drug has induced a manic episode.
>I admit that I really don't know enough about >this stuff. However, the question raised is >whether or not a manic reaction to therapeutic >dosages of antidepressants indicates bipolar >disorder. I guess the best way to assess this >question is via a longitudinal investigation of >people who have experienced this reaction, both >retrospectively and prospectively.I see it as a continuoum. Especially when we are talking about norepinephrine active drugs, we see
a lot of behaviors such as irritability in people taking the drug for depression, even if they never get diagnosed with mania. Its like steroids, a lot of the problems associated with them are dose dependant, and also dependant on individual tolerances. A theraputic dose doesn't really mean anything in my oppinion. By friend can drink 10 cups of coffee and not get anxious, I drink 1 and have a panic attack. But, off coffee, I don't have those panic attacks.>He needed to create a hyperlocomotive state >using a combination of amphetamine + >chlordiazepoxide to produce a state that was >responsive to valproate.
I think that it depends on the animal, and the situation. Stress increases PKC, and antidepressants increase PKC, so it could be additive. I personally noted that my "manic episode" was a combination of severe stress, and high doses of antidepressants. There are so many factors.
>Can amphetamine alone switch someone from >depression into mania?
I would say so. Perhaps high doses would be needed.
>The irony is this: Dr. Manji evaluates the >validity of an animal model of mania by >determining whether or not it is attenuated by a >mood stabilizer. This is tantamount to >diagnosing bipolar disorder by evaluating >response vs non-response to a mood stabilizer.
That is exactly my point. If mood stabalizers serve as antidotes to manic episodes (of any origin), then there is no way to determine what exactly caused the manic episode. I heard of a lady who treated her "bipolar disorder" with antidepressants alone. If she felt a manic epsiode coming on, she simply lowered the antidepressant dose.
Here is another interesting article. It suggests how elevated PKC can cause impaired thinking, impaired memory, and impulsivity. At the bottom, it notes how it was able to create these conditions using norepinephrine active drugs, (if I recall it was an NRI used) It basically said how lithium or tegretol were able to block the effects of norepinephrine drugs in these domains.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/prenzyme.cfm
Linkadge
poster:linkadge
thread:620137
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060315/msgs/620922.html