Posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 8:43:22
In reply to Re: Questions about Phenylalanine and more. » Larry Hoover, posted by Indie on July 24, 2004, at 12:46:59
> WOW...That's alot of information. Are you a bio-chemist or something
environmental toxicologist
> or have you just done alot of research on the matter??
That too.
> You say more questions welcome...I've got a million!!
Great!
> I am bi-polar II and know just enough about all of it to be a danger to myself :-)
<spock eyebrow>
> Basically I am trying to get a grasp on the systems that control mood to understand better what systems may be out of whack so that I can make some educated guesses on fixing them.
Good base assumption.
> If you have any suggestions and info on that front I am ready to hear as much info as you care to give.
Far better, I think, to ask about specific symptoms or symptom clusters. There's a "where to start" thread, above us, that gets into the basics.
> As additional info, my manias are very easy to control, lamictal pretty much does the job. I find it a bit confusing that half of my manias are euphoric and half miserabely dysphoric.
My instant intuition is that one is A, the other is A and B. If you could control factor B, you'd be addressing the dysphoric disturbance more closely. That's how my brain models things. Of course, identifying factor B is harder than modelling it.
> My depressions are extrordinarally difficult to control. ADs have worked in the past as did ECT once but now nothing on that front seems to be working..,
>
> until this week. At the suggestion of my doc, I started taking SAMe along with an anti-homocysteineWhat exactly is in the anti-homocysteine?
> and it seems to be giving me a bit of relief. I started with 200 mg 2X/day and after three days moved to 400 mg 2X/day. The only problem is that my anxiety seems to be getting worse.
That happens a lot, when you substantially push the activity of a single biochemical process. You've probably so substantially increased your B-vitamin demand that your body is shifting into stress.
> Now I know that SAMe is a methyl donor that allows the tryptophan-5HTP-5HT process and the tyrosine-dopamine-norepinephrine process to work.
The more I look at that, the more I wonder where that idea came from. The only methylation process among the major neurotransmitters is the conversion of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) to epinephrine (adrenaline). Methylation *is* a key process in DNA transcription, and thus protein formation---> enzymes in general, receptors in general, etc.
> I also know that people advise Bipolars not to take the stuff as it may cause mania, however my doc and pharmacist both said that this really wasn't true.
It's not one of those things you can predict. What makes SAMe different from other interventions is that if you use it sensibly, activation can be noted, and the supplement stopped, long before frank mania ensues.
> I guess that all of this babbling is wondering why SAMe might relieve depression but increase anxiety.
See above. B-vitamin stress. You need a B-complex, and multimineral formulation. More specific recommendations come from specific symptoms. Anxiety could arise from niacin stress (niacinamide is the treatment, not niacin). Magnesium stress. Lots of things. Carpet bomb your body with general nutrients first, though.
> As for the phenylalanine, where does it fit into the system? I am going to add supplements very slowly, but would it make any sense to take this supplement with SAMe?Get the B-complex and multiminerals going first. And, I'm astounded, as I read through your post, that nobody has yet suggested fish oil to you. Or antioxidants. Take fish oil with your biggest meal(s) of the day (same with the other supps). Start at 3 grams/day, and work up, as tolerated, to 5-7 grams. You need vitamin E to protect the fish oil, 400 IU (and vitamin C, too, 1,000 mg).
> The reason that I am wondering about glutamine is because of an experience that my doctor had many moons ago. He was working on a study at the University of Texas doing blood tests for nutritional status. Just for kicks he decided to get himself tested. After a few weeks his motivation increased dramatically. Over several months he lost over 30 lbs without even thinking about it. They did a mini study on the issue and the results were duplicated in patients with a family history of depression and diabetes.Hmmm....gonna come back to that.
> I have two reasons for interest in this. The first is because I have motivation problems even when I am symptom free. The second is that my sister is clinically obese. She eats a pretty good diet and runs frequently but still gains weight.
Could be a chromium problem. Gonna come back to it.
> >
> > Simply put, glutamic acid is excitatory, whereas glutamine is inhibitory,but sometimes the glutamic acid excites an inhibitory process (net inhibitory effect), and sometimes the glutamine inhibits an inhibitory process (net excitatory effect), so the outcomes can seem paradoxical. Like amphetamine to treat hyperactivity. It works, but it doesn't seem logical, on its face.
>
> In my limited understanding, it seems to me that this study indicates the paradoxical effect of Glutamine inhibiting an inhibitory process. Is this a good assumption?I'm not fully comfortable yet with my understanding of glutamine activity. I'm gonna come back to it. No rush, ya know? You gotta pump those vitamins and minerals first, anyway.
> Again, would it make sense to take this supplement with SAMe? My doc was taking around 1.5 grams/day "if his memory serves him correctly."
The presumption that your body has the nutrients it needs to fully utilize these treatments suggested by your pdoc may not be valid.
> As for tryptophan/5HTP, as you seem to think that tryptophan is the best choice between these two...same question. Would it make sense to take it with SAMe?
Dose makes the poison. Always remember that. Start low, go slow, when you think there might be an interaction. There might be an interaction, is my gut reaction. No clear reason not to try it, just do the experiment with care.
> Do you have any insight or suggestions about the anxiety issue?? I do not want to quit the SAMe as it seems to be having a positive effect on depression but the anxiety gets so bad sometimes that I feel like I am suffocating.I hope I've covered that sufficiently already.
> Thanks in advancee for any info.You're most welcome.
> P.S. I have another question off the topic but I will start a new thread for that.I don't have much to offer there, other than anecdote. I'll ponder it a bit.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:369909
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040718/msgs/370235.html