Posted by Dr. Bob on February 16, 2004, at 18:02:49
In reply to AA and meds « Dalilah, posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2004, at 8:04:13
Re: AA and meds » Dalilah
Posted by MB on February 13, 2004, at 10:50:30
In reply to AA and meds, posted by Dalilah on February 9, 2004, at 12:48:58
> I've heard numerous stories of people directed NOT to take their meds, that the 12 steps would relieve there depression, and then these people ended up committing suicide, something that may very well have been avoided with meds.
Yeah, and then the anti-med members claim that the suicide "failed AA," "...just constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves..." Of course, AA never fails *anyone* according to these strict constructionists of AA dogma; unsuccessful members only fail to work an honest program.
There is a schism in the AA community in my town: the anti-med members on one side, and the pro-med members on the other. In fact, the number of meetings here in town has been growing as resentments over this matter are engendered, and members split off from one group to form another.
Anyway, there is a conference approved pamphlet stating it is important to take any psychiatric medications the doctor prescribes (as long as they're not addictive). Sometimes I feel like shoving these pamphlets in the faces of the anti-med members. We're talking AA (a place to get sober) not the fricken Church of Scientology.
End Rant,
MB
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Dalilah on February 13, 2004, at 12:12:05
In reply to Re: AA and meds » Dalilah, posted by MB on February 13, 2004, at 10:50:30
MB,
Always nice to know I'm not alone. I'm curious what town are you in? As I've said, I'm in L.A. I am completely familiar with all you've said below. And I am aware of the pamphlet, something I used to carry around to meetings, just to make me feel better.I'm sure you're aware that the AA in the book is wildly different that the AA in the program/the fellowship.
I'm afraid I've just quit going to meetings, which is a worse offense than taking meds. In addition to med issues, I found no support regarding my depression when I really needed it. Now that I'm not depressed, my attitude regarding the rules and meetings has just turned sour. And when I try to go, it only turns my stomach.
An unpopular opinion indeed, but in a year without meetings I feel healthier than ever. Knock wood.
-Dalilah
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Stryker88 on February 14, 2004, at 0:06:01
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Dalilah on February 13, 2004, at 12:12:05
I am a little bit concerned about all this anti AA talk it makes me wonder if you guys are completely clean and sober. Having said that I am sharing the same exprience, my attitude towards AA has changed since taking Effexor 150mg, I used to go and stay the whole meeting while soaking in all the important message, and now I rarely go and when I do I tend to judge people that are having a tough time, I am a bit concerned that the meds have made me less caring about others. AA is supposed to be my #1 priority in life and I still believe that but I have abandoned the daily practice and reprieve. Now I am thinking about stopping Effexor I am tired of it.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Dalilah on February 14, 2004, at 12:39:43
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Stryker88 on February 14, 2004, at 0:06:01
> I am a little bit concerned about all this anti AA talk it makes me wonder if you guys are completely clean and sober.
I haven't had a drink or drug for over 6 1/2 years. I think that counts.
>Having said that I am sharing the same exprience, my attitude towards AA has changed since taking Effexor 150mg, I used to go and stay the whole meeting while soaking in all the important message, and now I rarely go and when I do I tend to judge people that are having a tough time, I am a bit concerned that the meds have made me less caring about others.
I work with my psychiatrist to constantly monitor my psych meds. I take an active role in my recovery from bipolar and addiction.
>AA is supposed to be my #1 priority in life and I still believe that but I have abandoned the daily practice and reprieve.
My #1 priority in life is taking care of my health: mental, physical, and spiritual.
>Now I am thinking about stopping Effexor I am tired of it.
Once again, I always work with my doctor to find what is right for me.
Hope this helps,
-Dalilah--
Re: AA and meds » Dalilah
Posted by MB on February 14, 2004, at 12:54:55
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Dalilah on February 13, 2004, at 12:12:05
I live in a small town, Dalilah, so I'd rather not say which one...too un-anonymous, if you know what I mean. I hope that's not rude. I feel sour about meetings, too, by the way. Maybe it's the Wellbutrin making me an irritible bitch...maybe I've heard just too many people condemn the notion of having a sense of inherent self worth: "the ego must be smashed." Well, I'm tired of self-loathing, and I'd like to *develope* somewhat of an ego, thank you (as long as it's healthy; I don't want to become an *egotist*). I just got back from treatment for a relapse (depression related), and they told me there that I "needed to find my own voice--my own power," that the "powerlessness" aspect of the program is meant to end after the first step (not imbue every aspect of life) and that I needed to learn to love myself and not be such a codependent(looking for self-worth outside of myself). That kind of thinking just isn't supported "in the rooms". I'm scared because I don't know if I can stay sober without the support, but at the same time, the meetings make me sick (all the self-flagellation). I look around the rooms, and nobody there "has what I want," especially the old-timers who still come day after day--obviously not having healed one bit.
MB
--
Re: AA and meds » Stryker88
Posted by MB on February 14, 2004, at 13:09:03
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Stryker88 on February 14, 2004, at 0:06:01
> I am a little bit concerned about all this anti AA talk it makes me wonder if you guys are completely clean and sober.
You mean, you wonder if I'm using addictive drugs and alcohol? I'm not at the moment, but I just relapsed (two weeks ago) and have come back into "the rooms," so my addict's voice is very strong right now. It might be the cause of my inability to be open-minded of others' opinions in the meetings.
> Having said that I am sharing the same exprience, my attitude towards AA has changed since taking Effexor 150mg, I used to go and stay the whole meeting while soaking in all the important message, and now I rarely go and when I do I tend to judge people that are having a tough time, I am a bit concerned that the meds have made me less caring about others. AA is supposed to be my #1 priority in life and I still believe that but I have abandoned the daily practice and reprieve. Now I am thinking about stopping Effexor I am tired of it.
Four months ago (when I had nine months sober), and I was taking Lexapro, If someone in a meeting said something i didn't agree with, I just set it aside thinking, "maybe they're right, maybe not, but I'll discuss it with my sponsor later." I didn't get all worked up. Now after my relapse, going to treatment, and comming back on Wellbutrin, I really get upset when someone says something I don't like. I really wonder if it *is* the medication.
One thing that has changed is that I did some cognative therapy in treatment for depression. We were trained to recognize our negative self-talk whenever our moods took a dive, and to correct it by saying positive affirmations about ourselves--to affirm that we have inherent self-worth, and to promote self-love. Now, when I go to a meeting and hear all the self-condemnation that is so popular in the meetings (can't say anything nice about yourself in a meeting unless you follow it up with a put down), I feel like it's threatening what I was taught to do in treatment.
MB
--
#1 Priorities
Posted by MB on February 14, 2004, at 13:16:16
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Dalilah on February 14, 2004, at 12:39:43
> > AA is supposed to be my #1 priority in life and I still believe that but I have abandoned the daily practice and reprieve.
>
> My #1 priority in life is taking care of my health: mental, physical, and spiritual.Right now, my #1 priority is to not dissect my radial artery.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Stryker88 on February 14, 2004, at 15:25:40
In reply to Re: AA and meds » Dalilah, posted by MB on February 14, 2004, at 12:54:55
I feel the same way about some of the old timers who have not improved at all. I want to go somewhere in life not give up on it.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by PsychoSage on February 15, 2004, at 12:56:44
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Stryker88 on February 14, 2004, at 15:25:40
WOW! I am so happy I came across you. My heart is always in AA, but when I relapsed I became other people's stories. I know that I ended up there with similar stories, but i think it is part recovery and part open bar/shooting gallery. It is not as safe a haven as one would think. I have 25 months of continuous sobriety, but I have gone to very few meetings. I average one a month. The first year I averaged one a week. I go to other treatment, and I have worked some steps this time, and I am on 8. I relapsed many times during my first 2.5 years in AA. I would have 3 and then 4 and then 3 and then whatever and 7 months is what I had the last time before I drank for a month.
I can't bare meetings on a daily basis. Dogma is exactly what is dispensed at those meetings. Their belief is backed up by the level of pleasure in their lives. If they have none then they have the back up of creating gratitude out of thin air. I think I have learned to struggle like a snail crawling on pavement on a hot summer day in AA. It gives you an AA ego instead of no ego.
Each person is different. As cliche as that sounds it is true. Some people need it for a life. However, I eventually tried to start counting how many real friends that were left outside of recovery. AA was a crutch for me and enabled my hypomanic moods.
I would use it sparingly. Some people should not love it too much. I probably squeezed the juice out of it.
Back on the topic, I think meetings help stigmatize me more because I have to censor myself when it comes to my moods and meds if only in my own mind which is the most important place not to be.
General rule is don't abuse any scripts, and don't trick yourself about the safety of a drug even if you were prescribed it. Take as directed, and be wary of benzos, pain killers and stimulants specifically. We have to be educated consumers, and that means sharing about side effects ALL THE TIME. If an SSRI switches us on to mania and we drink, then how many people would want to hear this in an AA meeting? We can't just speak about our psychiatric lives in passing if we have few other outlets.
Addiction is a subset of our mental illness.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by zero on February 15, 2004, at 14:55:16
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Stryker88 on February 14, 2004, at 0:06:01
My #1 priority is taking good care of myself - in every way. Stopping binge-drinking has been one of these ways.
I was drawn to AA because it seemed most people there were forgiving/accepting, there was "fellowship" to be had, and most people there seemed to be trying to make their lives better.
I feel I must "censor" myself when it comes to "sharing" about psych. problems, as most of my problems at this point are bipolar+social phobia related.
In the meetings I go to, I'd estimate 1/3 of the people are on psych. meds. Still, I occasionally hear people coming down on those who take them.
Years ago people told me I wasn't really "sober" 'cause I took psych. meds. ( as in, "you're an alcoholic that's all that's wrong with you - flush those pills down the toilet!"). This made me feel guilty, so I went "back out", which added years to my drinking career. Fortunately attitudes have changed on this a lot (meeting-dependent, of course).
No one becomes a problem drinker for no reason. Mental health issues are the most common reason I see in the AA "rooms" where I go.
I keep all of this in mind when picking the meetings I go to.
I try to hang with people in AA whose attitudes on mental health issues are more modern and enlightened.
"Take what you need and leave the rest" - (AA slogan).
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Dalilah on February 15, 2004, at 16:16:27
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by zero on February 15, 2004, at 14:55:16
Yeah! I agree with most of what I'm reading here and it confirms that AA is not the cure all end all that it claims to be.
I like what was said about AA crushing the ego. I feel the same way more or less. You go to a meeting and all you hear is, "I keep making the same mistakes. I make bad decisions constantly, it's my acoholism. I have stinking thinking. There is something wrong with my brain." BINGO! Like you said, addiction is a subset of our mental illness. And I just can't believe that this constant self flagellation regarding our broken brains can be helpful.
And the idea of self censoring our most important issue, our mental illness, in the one place we are supposed to feel safe and always accepted is another mind twist that results in shame.
But don't get me wrong, AA is great. It saved my life. I love love love that book. I do not, however, feel like an indentured servant who must attend 3 meetings a week for the rest of my life or I'll "go out."
- Dalilah
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by HenryO on February 15, 2004, at 16:52:23
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Stryker88 on February 14, 2004, at 0:06:01
I know from experience at least half of us drunks are on meds and the other half need to be. AA is a bunch of different people. If you don't like what you hear forget them and go to a different meeting. We get there by being sick so everyone there is sort of nuts. But to say AA did not accept you is silly. The people at a particular meeting may be intolerant, that does not mean AA as a whole shares their opinion. It is an orginization for alcoholism, naturally if you are talking mostly about mental health and depression that could be tricky. I have never heard anybody at any meeting ever in 20 years tell somebody not to take their meds. There are the occasional nazis who think that the big book solves all problems. But that is directly addressed under "problems other than alcohol." Meds are not AA's focus of course, we have only one reason for existing. I don't talk about meds much at meetings because we are there to talk about alcoholism. I deal with other issues at different places with the appropriate people.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Stryker88 on February 15, 2004, at 19:27:41
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by PsychoSage on February 15, 2004, at 12:56:44
YOU KNOW EVERYTHING THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR INFINITE WISDOM!! SORRY FOR WASTING A FEW MINUTES FROM YOUR PERFECT LIVES
--
Re: AA and meds » HenryO
Posted by PsychoSage on February 15, 2004, at 20:40:37
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by HenryO on February 15, 2004, at 16:52:23
> I know from experience at least half of us drunks are on meds and the other half need to be. AA is a bunch of different people. If you don't like what you hear forget them and go to a different meeting. We get there by being sick so everyone there is sort of nuts. But to say AA did not accept you is silly. The people at a particular meeting may be intolerant, that does not mean AA as a whole shares their opinion. It is an orginization for alcoholism, naturally if you are talking mostly about mental health and depression that could be tricky. I have never heard anybody at any meeting ever in 20 years tell somebody not to take their meds. There are the occasional nazis who think that the big book solves all problems. But that is directly addressed under "problems other than alcohol." Meds are not AA's focus of course, we have only one reason for existing. I don't talk about meds much at meetings because we are there to talk about alcoholism. I deal with other issues at different places with the appropriate people.
>
I don't know a problem that is really exclusively alcohol-related. We are taught that AA is much more than about alcohol. The mental health clinicians tell us to go to meetings and get support. however, we end up talking around everything important at meetings and hide behind cliches and some page in the big book.Some of us need more than learning how to be an AA drone and gushing praise at the latest person with an anniversary/birthday. Unfortunately, speaking about meds and mental illness is like a new form of dialogue, and just as we learned how to avoid war stories and not go after an active user alone, we need to speak in more depth about our illness. I have no solutions, but my point is that AA is all that most of us have when it comes to dark and dirty and pathetic thoughts and issues. As liberal as we pretend it to be, it's common focus can lead many astray. Not everyone sees this way, and many are confrotable about supplementing other helathy habits and treatments to AA, but a large chunk don't have that luxury or those influences. A lot of people get lost in those rooms. They don't realize that there are 23 other hours in the day. In meetings I start coming up with more non-AA speak kind of ideas than AA fast food wisdom. Unfortunately, many addicts do not have normal friends and family who can help them have a multi dimensional recovery or those addicts do not want to burden them.
Personally, I have talked about meds a lot every now and then in the rooms, but meetings encourage using the big book and the steps to solve our problems. Sometimes we can't apply those ambiguous steps to every part of out life. Sometimes we can, but those are just words that are symbols that refer to more ideas that only mean something to the speaker sometimes. Please explicate more AA people! We get so many great general feel-good messages but it's really just a great place to also feel better than people. I definitely go to AA to see who is struggling so I remember what I don't want to be like again. AA people feed off the recent misfortune of others and forget to move on with their lives. They take inventory and what they pass off as gratitude is really arrogance. It's life. The problem is that people go to the same place for years and often step on the same people. Keep coming back and learn how to make coffee in a large pot. It gives us false hope because all our problems are not supposed to be attacked with cognitive changes and prayer. AA needs to loosen up in terms of the content of discussion. We are also biological/biochemical beings with neurons and central nervous systems. It should be as important as talking about your dead cat. It seems that the format and the etiquette which is informal is too limited and bl#ws. We can not delude ourselves into thinking that a 90/90 will save our lives. If we keep hitting a wall in AA then we need to openly talk about getting ideas and help elsewhere. However, we become heretics or accused of going AWOL when we become become an unChristian AA to some. You can't even say the name of narcotics Anonymous without having eggs thrown at you in those rooms. I'm sorry but the spirit is stale.
I put AA up there as my savior, and that was the biggest joke of my life.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by contemplative1 on February 15, 2004, at 21:37:17
In reply to Re: AA and meds » HenryO, posted by PsychoSage on February 15, 2004, at 20:40:37
My first sponsor told me that once I completed my fifth step that I would feel such a transformation that I would no longer need my psych meds. Suffice to say the thought both appealed and terrified me. His credo was that we AA's not take anything that propigates the idea that we can take a pill to solve our emotional problems. I relapsed every 90 days for a year after this.
Since then I met a much more "enlightned" sponsor who is also on meds. I am now almost 2 years sober.
Without AA I would be back on drugs. Without my meds I would be back on drugs. I value both and NEED both.
I do not share at the podium my dependence on meds and only speak of this with people of like minds in AA. This has worked for me and I have not had one person shake their head in disgust. In fact I have turned into the resident expert on psych meds (arrogance will probably take me out..I know).
I like what someone said in an earlier post that you take what you want and leave what you don't.
With the right mixture of meds and AA life can be a wonderful thing.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Dalilah on February 15, 2004, at 22:01:41
In reply to Re: AA and meds » HenryO, posted by PsychoSage on February 15, 2004, at 20:40:37
I've got to say I'm with Psychosage on this one. It's true that we talk about just about everything and anything in AA, but when it comes to meds, that is an outside issue. Honestyly, what else is an outside issue? Oh yeah, NA, SA but not Alanon I don't think?
AA rooms are a place you can talk about anything you're feeling unless it regards meds. Of course you can and I usually do mention meds, but it is looked down upon in the majority of meetings I've tried, and I've tried quite a few, seeking that one that's right for me? So I usually share about my meds cause that's pertinent to my current situation, while the urge for a drink is not nor has it been, for well over five years. "Problems other than alcohol" are what I've got. Once again it leaves me in the position of not attending meetings so that I may "deal with other issues at different places with the appropriate people." Meanwhile my AA friends disapprove of my decision and try to bring me back into the fold/cult.
We do like to think that AA "in the rooms" is liberal and accepting, but it doesn't take too long to figure out that's not entirely true. I suspect my mental illness helped make me the addict I was. Therefore the root of the problem (mental illness) "should" not be discussed in the meetings where you go to deal with the problem (addiction.) It's unfortunate and I certainly hope that change will come about.
I'm sure you know AA's main man Bill Wilson suffered from intense depression way back in the 1940's. I can't imagine he would like such stringent lines drawn around these issues. He even mentions the "least understood manic depressive type of alcoholic" in the big bible book. That's right Bill - over 60 years later - and we're pretty damn misunderstood, at least in "some of the rooms."
- Dalilah
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by PsychoSage on February 16, 2004, at 1:49:25
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Dalilah on February 15, 2004, at 22:01:41
Thanks, Dalilah. Unfortunately, there is no mental illness anonymous, so we really have to get our "peer-help" recovery needs in 12step. The granddaddy of them all could use a shot in the arm or two though. I would love to see a movement or revolution where AA becomes more appealing to the contemporary addict. I am not sure how that could happen, but we need to be conscious of AA's limitations. More shall be revealed on this I guess.
But perhaps its not AA that needs to change as much as society. That way AA will change for the better, and the dialogue in the rooms can be less coded in ambiguity. It is fine to speak through the terms of the program, but those terms need something around them. I feel that is not happening. Bringing the message appears commercial and contrived with a certain percentage of members. One thing is certain is that AA is not a sobriety factory, and I am not going to pretend it works if you work it. You can not go into AA without letting these people occupy your life. It is a place where the pressure and expectation can be as suffocating as the world outside the rooms if life is not swinging your way. Sobriety is given if you give and take with the program. That comes with a lot of risks.
Interestingly, January's grapevine is titled "The Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" I just picked it up last week. I will keep coming back, but I will attend sparkingly.
--
Take what you can use, leave the rest behind.
Posted by HenryO on February 16, 2004, at 3:27:17
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by PsychoSage on February 16, 2004, at 1:49:25
If Bill Wilson were alive today, belive me, he would be on meds. He would be loud about too. He tried everything he could get his hands on, from massive doses of niacin to LSD. All his life he suffered terribly from depression and I bet he talked about it at meetings. I'd also bet there were foolish people there who told him his problem was lack of faith or something equally stupid.
The twelve steps won't cure arthritis though. If you have depression you should see a doctor.
There are plenty sick flawed people in AA. That's why they got there.
Ignore any alcoholic who hasn't got something of value you can use. Look at all your trials and experiences with meds. But, you stick with it and keep trying to get the results you want. Just because you had a rigid ignorant sponsor or have been to meetings with rigid ignorant people doesn't mean that that is AA. If you find intolerant people at meetings, laugh at their stupidity, find a better class of drunk or start your own meeting.
--
Re: AA and meds
Posted by Stryker88 on February 16, 2004, at 4:11:26
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by PsychoSage on February 16, 2004, at 1:49:25
There are support groups for depression, go to those for depression and AA or NA for drug addiction, problem solved, we could analyze this all day
--
Last post on this.
Posted by PsychoSage on February 16, 2004, at 13:03:33
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Stryker88 on February 16, 2004, at 4:11:26
> There are support groups for depression, go to those for depression and AA or NA for drug addiction, problem solved, we could analyze this all day
My point was that even though that exists that is not the direction where courts send drug offenders. There are not enough mental health support groups with any structure around. It's just not prevalent, and it's unlikely to take off.
The whole point was that we don't get strong support to be forthright about our mental health when AA is about addiction which falls under mental health. The program in print is not as problematic as the sociology of the members.
We are not gag-ordered, but the general consensus is that one has to be conservative and pick and choose who one should share about these sensitive issues. That is just like other sensitive issues, but I believe other people would like to speak more freely about the fact they receive treatment and take psychotropic drugs without being labelled an illegitmate AA member.
The point is that meds help us stay well which helps us stay sober. It's not like we are talking about sexual issues in depth.
AA makes itself out to be a one-stop shopping store. Not everyone believes that, but that is how it comes accross to the newcomer and even those with a a couple years. Just work the program and pray and don't worry about anything else. A spiritual conversion will take care of everything as the Higher Power will do what you can't do for yourself. I feel a lot of people are sick of listening that page four hundred and so and so is the answer to your problems. It's a simple program. People can lose themselves in the program and blame themselves for failure when they are closed off to challenging the way AA is practiced and even the principles. If they are taught "by suggestion" or just sheer brain-washing to get into the program they really have to think like an AA member. Unfortunately, some people will suffer because they don't have a wider perspective of recovery or experience with dealing with AA egos. They may start to believe that certain versions of AA are the only way to stay sane {step 3}.
There are too many overzealous AA people with time who dominate the scene and suck people into to being initiated, and if you relapse or go away then you are "out of the program" and sick. "Wait for the miracle to happen." People think they are spiritual geniuses when they dispense stuff like that.
I guess I am pointing to AA being outdated in some respects. I am still thinking about it,
That's my last post in this thread!
--
Lamictal Good God--(and AA,, sorry)
Posted by alathea on February 16, 2004, at 17:24:33
In reply to Re: AA and meds, posted by Stryker88 on February 16, 2004, at 4:11:26
I think I'm paranoid. Only thing is, I don't know if my doctor gets some sick and pointless pleasure out of just MEDICATING me (since I'm obviously totally sane) or if the medications are really the problem, as in like, bad. I think these are more like trust issues than like psychotic paranoid issues, but at this point I really can't tell anymore. He gave me Lorazapam (sp?) so I wouldn't kill a dog or be afraid of going near my children, but I....I'm still off the wall.
I was interested to read what you all had to say about Lamictal. I think it's making me insane.I also think it's interesting that I'm taking this lamazipam crap since I have avoided benzos like the plague since I got clean and sober three years ago.
I think AA is simply behavioral therapy and it is usually the first place most of us have been accepted in a long time. Both accepted and told to get it together--and we're hearing it from people who understand. It's very simple behavioral therapy and it's all laid out in the big book. My only problem with it is the dogmatic nature of it where there is no flexibility and if you "screw up" or find something else that appears to be working for you, then you are in denial and on a sure route to alcoholic destruction. For people who come into the program in a very desperate and suggestible state of mental and emotional deterioration that can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If I don't hurry I will never get all the rest of my homework for the rest of the quarter done in one night!
poster:Dr. Bob
thread:311972
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20040130/msgs/314236.html