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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gabby77 on June 2, 2004, at 19:32:40
In reply to Re: weaning off effexor after 3 years at 300 mgs, posted by boatsie on June 2, 2004, at 16:49:56
I went to my doc yesterday and she about had a fit when she saw my physical apearance. i took my mom to document how horrid my weekend had been...she immediately wanted to put me back on effexor 75 and i said are you nuts???? i just got it out of my system....i had already had prozac poop out three years ago, but she gave me 10 mg of prozac and it has been a miracle for me....i woke up feeling a lot better...partly because teh withdraw is weaning, but also cause the prozac is helping....just keep faith and get off the effexor.....it's woth it
Posted by boatsie on June 2, 2004, at 19:35:54
In reply to Re: weaning off effexor after 3 years at 300 mgs, posted by Jiggitykid on June 2, 2004, at 18:00:37
For so many years I was not a proponent of ADs but rather someone who believed that they should ONLY be prescribed for the most severe cases. I was so grateful for my sanity, having slipped so far in my last depressive episode some 9 years ago, that I was resigned to living on meds, antagonistic to those who spoke against using them because they just didn't have any idea of the terror of having so lost it that nowhere was safe anymore and there was no escape from the horror! The thought of going back there again ....
Thank you so much for your response and for ALLof your postings to this board. I have read all of it and really don't know where to turn next. Yesterday, in discussion with my psych regarding my cutting back on effexor, ativan and trazadone , a process I had already begun on my own, she indicated that I had to stop smoking before I fiddled with anything. I'm convinced that the medications are what reignited my smoking ... I am a recovering alocholic (20 years) who had quit smoking for 15 before starting in my third year of meds.
Somewhere a few years ago i read about the chance that they would invent some type of hat you could wear that would stimulate the exact areas in your brain that were malfunctioning. ... when i asked about ECT, i was told tyhat even with that, you still need medicine.....My dr. has seen me through a psychotic break, recurrent depressive episodes, cancer, a divorce, worked successfully with my BPD ... and all the while i feel as if i am working mentally on 3/4 empty.... memory, confusion, loss of mental fluidity .... and I am a writer!
I just don't know where to begin here. I read all these posts and I say, but was anyone as seriously ill as I was. I look back on the woman i was sans medicine, and i recall the free flowing anxiety, the sleep disorders, the sadness, the confusion, the isolation, the hypervigilance the whole shebang which represented my life even in between depressive episodes. I was always afflicted. Is it possible that all this work, these nine years of therapy, are enough to enable me to emerge on the other side sans meds as a highly functioning individual?
> You are farther along than I have any "expertise." I can tell you that I am meds free right now and am fine, but this varies with each person and with each condition. The biggest problem, IMO, with trying to get off of effexor is that the withdrawal symptoms mimic many of the symptoms we were trying to treat. I echo your feelings about the research - I don't trust the drug companies. I hope someone else here can give you more/better information, particularly your question about doctors. I switched doctors after the effexor problem, but went through the withdrawals alone.
>
> Again, please, someone here respond with more detailed information or recommendations for someone to contact.
>
> Take care of yourself - the withdrawal stinks. My suggestion to you (as to many others) is that you go back through the archives here and print out the many shared withdrawal symptoms (and visit the petition page) and show your doctor. We aren't making this up and we aren't a noisy minority. I'm glad you found this page - I can't tell you how much this helped me!!
>
> > I am lying on my couch with this horrid headache and trying to remember if I re-upped my Effexor to 300 (i had been down to 150 for two days and at the same time cutting back on ativan and lorazepam). I am 53 and have been on medication for 9 years. My psychiatrist recently went to a seminar at Stanford in which the report was that NO ONE who has suffered a severe psychotic break can hope to live free of medication ...!! (Yes, i pointed out to her that ONLY the drug companies are doing research now and how many patients does she have who are trying to get off meds now... and this is a psy that i trust but she has her vision .... )
> > I read all your postings after rising from couch -- brain zaps, the hampster dance in the chest (is this that cortisone rush thing?), the fear of going to sleep, the hallucinogenic nightmares, thought disorders...... ALL the symptoms we treated and which start to reapear when i try to lower ativan...
> >
> > Yesterday, I had the beginnings of this incredible headache, weakenss in arms and hands and legs, depression, long sleep,
> >
> > Noone ever told me about effexor's short life..... I don't know what to address first, the effexor or the ativan/lorazepam .....
> > Has anyone received support from a doctor? Is there any professional out there that has done the research on withdrawal....
> > And is there hope for leading a normal life after withdrawal. I am so frightened.
> > Can someone please respond?
> >
>
>
Posted by boatsie on June 2, 2004, at 19:42:37
In reply to Re: Cold Turkey after 7 years on 300mg? get help, posted by seanwrx on May 18, 2004, at 21:03:38
Has anyone anything to report on losing the weight you gained on effexor after quitting?
Has anyone else been on a cocktail like mine? Effexor 300, Wellbutrin 75, Ativan 2mg, Trazadone 150?
What should i work on first? From postings, it seems as if the Ativan and Trazadone might help with some of the symptoms of withdrawal from the effexor ....
And i Read somewhere that you can open the pills and take some out ...but then someone else posted this didn't work .....
Posted by Laurajean on June 2, 2004, at 21:35:04
In reply to weaning off effexor after 3 years at 300 mgs, posted by gabby77 on June 2, 2004, at 19:32:40
Hi all,
I haven't been here for a while but I saw some posts recently about trying to come off relatively high doses for long periods of time and just wanted to reassure you it can be done!I was on 300 mg xr for three or more years and I have been OFF now for about eight weeks....and I finally am feeling more "normal." No physical symptoms that I know of, and the crying jags, anxiety, etc. is much less.
The withdrawal process was horrendous....it amazes me that even days go by now where I don't think about it. That is improvement!
Thank you to all who helped me......
laura
Posted by Jiggitykid on June 2, 2004, at 22:29:10
In reply to I'm off! (8 weeks), posted by Laurajean on June 2, 2004, at 21:35:04
>>>The withdrawal process was horrendous....it amazes me that even days go by now where I don't think about it. That is improvement!
laura<<<
I've been off of effexor for about 6+ months now. Rarely, I wake up with the brain shivers, but that's very uncommon. I agree with you - I knew I was getting better when I could go for hours or even a day without even thinking about it.
Posted by boatsie on June 3, 2004, at 14:08:55
In reply to Re: I'm off! (8 weeks), posted by Jiggitykid on June 2, 2004, at 22:29:10
Has anyone experienced delusions .... let me explain. Before I went on medications I used to suffer from what I called the "What ifs".... reality had no consistency. i would imagine that dogs turned into wolves, that trees turned into cartoonish representations, that people on tv might take off their clothing.... i would see pictures and they would morph in my mind into distorted frightening images..... I would have these terrifying thoughts upon seeing someone "what if they pulled out a knife .....
after cutting down to 150mg for three days my mind started playing these tricks again.... I am wondering if there is a way if you are on effexor xr to wean more slowley from 300 down .... maybe 150 mg is too big a step?
I read in a posting yesterday that if these types of delusions reoccured it was a sign that the sevre depression was not resolvedd and that you should remain on medication.... Anyone?
Posted by Tiffanie on June 8, 2004, at 16:30:50
In reply to Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Becky on October 2, 1999, at 22:03:30
I was originally on 75 mg. After I decided to get off Effexor I got the doc to write a script for 37.5mg. After I got use to that, I took a 37.5 mg every other day until I got used to that. Then the doc wrote me a script for 25 mg pills.
(FYI 25mg is a child’s dose so most adult docs wouldn't know this dosage is available. 25 mg pills are tabs, not capsules so they are east to break; they even have a perforated line that makes breaking them in half easy. It pays to be 23 and still see a pediatrician.)
I took the 25 mg's until I got use to that and then went to 25 mg every other day. After that, I cut the 25 mg's in half. Finally I got to 12.5 mg every other day. Then I stopped.
"Getting used to" the change is dosage sucked each time but it was better then when I just tried to quit the 37.5's cold turkey and almost "died"(figuratively). It took from 3-4 weeks to get used to each new dosage. Then I stayed at the dosage for about 2 or 3 weeks so I didn’t shock my body.
It's only been a week since I took my last 12.5mg. I'm still getting shocks, but they are little ones and I can deal.
I am soooo tired and fat…thanks a lot Effexor.
Posted by Tesssi on June 11, 2004, at 23:01:07
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Tiffanie on June 8, 2004, at 16:30:50
Good for you for getting off of it... i am still taking prozac every other day and feeling depressed and teary. I tried to go cold turkey from 37.5 and couldnt handle it. I really had no symptoms weaning down, until i went completely off. I personally think it should be outlawed...i know. .i am so wrong according to so many. but the crap is evil...what is does to your brain is just not right. Not when coming off it is that bad and it is bad, sorry for you others that will never come off. but some of us do and it is not easy...it makes us weak and want to go back on it.
Posted by FaithT on June 12, 2004, at 8:21:20
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Tesssi on June 11, 2004, at 23:01:07
Hello everyone~
Well, I must say I had NO CLUE what I was in store for when I made the decision to stop Effexor. Like the rest of you, I weaned down the correct way, 150 mg. to 75 mg. to 35 mg. to none..for the past 3 days. Oh my God, I feel so bizarre. I was fine while weaning down, but once there was none.. I started having these weird electrical sensations go through my head and body, I'm having horrid nightmares and waking after each one,and my tongue feels funny..sort of tingly. I thought this was only me, until I just finished reading your above postings..I just never knew.
I went on this med. 2 years ago, because I was dignosed with melanoma. I went off the deep end, and needed help. This med. really did help me, but I don't want to be on it anymore. I'm past the depression thank God.
Do these strange feelings go away? Does anyone know? Thank you in advance..and thank you ALL for being so honest about this issue.
Faith~
Posted by Jiggitykid on June 12, 2004, at 10:26:41
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms! Me too! Help!, posted by FaithT on June 12, 2004, at 8:21:20
Hi Faith,
They *do* go away. It takes a while though, so you'll have to be patient. It took me at least a month before I was close to "normal." What you are experiencing is quite common, as you've seen from this board, but you'd never know that from the drug company or the medical community.
I have my strong concerns/reservations about prescribing antidepressants for situations, but I know others feel quite differently. Take care of yourself and let those around you know what is going on. It does sound as if your doc at least knew to taper and not to say, "Oh, you're fine now, just quit." Thanks for posting, and spread the word about Effexor!
Posted by FaithT on June 12, 2004, at 16:28:37
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms! Me too! Help! » FaithT, posted by Jiggitykid on June 12, 2004, at 10:26:41
Thanks so much for your post...I did ALOT of research today, and what I found was really shocking. I had no clue about Effexor and the difficult withdrawl that is involved..I do now, and I have already spread the word!
Yes, you're right in that I did follow my Dr.'s advice and weaned down gradually. Like I said, everything was fine until that last 37.5 mg. pill.That was 3 days ago, and wow, I've never felt anything this bizarre in my life. I guess that the Docs don't want to warn you about this stuff, because they probably feel that you'll start imagining side effects. However, I think this is really wrong...I just pray that this passes, as you said it should. I see my doc.on Wednesday for a follow up,so I'll definately make him aware, but I'm just going to stick it out..not going the Prozac route....By the way, the Dramamine did nothing for me..Bummer!
Thank you again for your reply...Faith~
Faith~
Posted by allycat on June 12, 2004, at 18:17:42
In reply to Advice for the weary?, posted by Scared Stiff on November 20, 2003, at 22:09:42
I have been gradually reducing my dose of effexor now for just over a month.When i started i was on 225mgs per day..i am now down to 37.5mg & believe me, it's been hard & hellish..I had been on this high dose of the drug for about 2 years & it seemed like it had just stopped being effective for me..I suffer from chronic depression & have been on a number of different AD's since i was 18 (i'm now 30) The same thing happens every few years..i find an AD that works for me, i'm great for a while, then it seems to stop working..Tho i have to say, that i have never experienced withdrawal symptoms like the ones i have from effexor...thank god most of the worst physical withdrawal symptoms seem to have passed (head & body "shocks",heart palpitations,restless legs,sweats,dizziness,nausea &feeling like the ground is moving when i walk)...i still have the worst headaches& blurry vision, but these are tolerable with the aid of good painkillers& a cold eye mask..Has anyone else had barely controllable carbohydrate cravings during their withdrawal? I will be off effexor completely in 2 days time..My doctor had planned for me to start taking another AD called Lustral, but i refuse after going thru this! Instead i have done some research & found a natural amino acid supplement called 5-HTP..it works in a similar way to AD's in that it helps the brain to produce seretonin(the feel good hormone) U can buy it at the health food store, so i got myself some capsules & plan to start taking them as soon as i can..it's got to be worth a try & there are no withdrawal symptoms! (or so they say!) All this does make u sceptical tho! If they work i will let u know in due course..Meanwhile, i wish everyone going through this same thing all the best..Make sure u have the support of a good friend, ur family & make ur GP aware of any symptoms u are suffering..I have also found this site to be of great support, keep posting everyone!
Posted by FaithT on June 13, 2004, at 7:20:35
In reply to It DOES Get Better!, posted by allycat on June 12, 2004, at 18:17:42
I never thought that I would take something like sleep, for granted. These nightmares are so hell-like, that I feel like the girl from the Nightmare on Elm Street movies..afraid to go to sleep.
Faith~ 1 month since beginning weaning off Effexor 150mg. /Beginning Day 4 of being totally off, and still in utter disbelief of what has happened to my body, in the past 3 days.
Posted by Tiffanie on June 13, 2004, at 20:51:48
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms! Me too! Help! » Jiggitykid, posted by FaithT on June 12, 2004, at 16:28:37
For those of you trying to get off effexor and making the jump from 37.5 to nothing because you can't cut a capsule, DON'T. 25 mg tablets do exist. It is a childrens dose so some Docs may not be aware of it. Also, the 25 mg tabs are easy to split into 12.5 mg doses.
Hopefully this knowlege will ease the pain of getting off this crap. See my 6/8/04 post by Tiffanie to see how I got off of Effexor.
Posted by grannyclampett on June 16, 2004, at 9:24:59
In reply to I'm off! (8 weeks), posted by Laurajean on June 2, 2004, at 21:35:04
Oh my god, I am so glad I found you folks! Thought I was losing my mind. I've been on 300 mg/Effexor for 2 years and have been tapering off for 6+ weeks now. This is my first week w/o any Effexor. Started on Adderall XR (10mg 2x/day for previously undiagnosed ADD) as I started going off the AD. It's a new doc who is helping get off this stuff and although she seems aware of how hard the withdrawl can be she thinks my weepiness, anxiety, irritability, constant exhaustion, etc. are due to my (probably) being peri-menopausal. Some days are better than others and I don't have the tearfulness & irritability, but the exhaustion seems constant. The brain zaps and swooshes are familiar to me -- used to happen if I missed a single dose. I think I've done a pretty good job of tapering off so those side effects are not as prevalent. It's the constant exhaustion & the feeling choking back tears that's driving me nuts.
Laura: your post gives me hope but here's my question. Did it take 8 weeks after your final dose or 8 weeks including tapering off?
> Hi all,
> I haven't been here for a while but I saw some posts recently about trying to come off relatively high doses for long periods of time and just wanted to reassure you it can be done!
>
> I was on 300 mg xr for three or more years and I have been OFF now for about eight weeks....and I finally am feeling more "normal." No physical symptoms that I know of, and the crying jags, anxiety, etc. is much less.
>
> The withdrawal process was horrendous....it amazes me that even days go by now where I don't think about it. That is improvement!
>
> Thank you to all who helped me......
>
> laura
Posted by Jiggitykid on June 16, 2004, at 11:46:43
In reply to Re: I'm off! (8 weeks) » Laurajean, posted by grannyclampett on June 16, 2004, at 9:24:59
GrannyClampett - I went cold-turkey, not having any idea about the withdrawal until I was full-blown into it. I didn't go back on any because I just couldn't put one more granule into my body. Most advise tapering, the way your doctor did. As for the feeling like you'll cry at any second - that's a TOTALLY NORMAL part of withdrawal and it will take about a month, give or take, for it to subside. It took me a month after my last dose to feel like I might be normal again, and then another month to gain complete control over my teariness. The exhaustion was hard to measure, but it has been since November that I quit taking it, and just last month I could stop taking what was helping me with the exhaustion. I have IA already, so again, exhaustion is a hard thing to measure with me.
I'm not a professional, but I'd say that the weepiness isn't perimenopausal (which I'm entering too). It's the *(&#^#& efffexor. Give it at least 4 weeks, then see if you notice a difference.
Hang in there - this ride stinks, but it does end and you can get your body back. :-)
Posted by boatsie on June 16, 2004, at 12:14:30
In reply to Re: I'm off! (8 weeks) » grannyclampett, posted by Jiggitykid on June 16, 2004, at 11:46:43
Like you, i was on 300 mg but for much longer. right now i am in second week of slow taper which involves 300 day one, 150 day two. I also am interested in how long the withdrawal symptoms continue after totally being off.
Today I see my psy to report on my progress and to request 75 mg pills which the pharmacist says i should use for 225 day one and 150 day two.. then we're down to 150, 150.this is definitely a scarey thing. so far, i've noiticed that i'm not AS exhausted as i was on the full dose effexor. feel more clear mentally, more motivated, more on top of things.... is this just in my mind?
dreams getting a tad weird. some bouts of feeling like I have the flu, the sweats, and on again off again numbness in left side (something I've lived with for 20 years on off and noone knows why .... when the depression was at its worst this numbness seemed to be on verge of taking over whole body...
i'm lucky to have a group of pharms supporting me. i'm nervous about seeing psy today as she honestly doesn't believe i'll be able to come off drugs. she says its too far progessed, the damage has been done and is irreversible. but that goes against everything i read in new research that is not funded by drug companies.
Thank you all for this list once again. I send my support to all of you. Hope someone writes back who is in process so we can support each other real time through the process.
Deborah
Posted by Jiggitykid on June 16, 2004, at 13:06:32
In reply to Re: I'm off! (8 weeks), posted by boatsie on June 16, 2004, at 12:14:30
> >this is definitely a scarey thing. so far, i've noiticed that i'm not AS exhausted as i was on the full dose effexor. feel more clear mentally, more motivated, more on top of things.... is this just in my mind?<<
Nope - the effexor clouded me up so much that my marriage was nearly destroyed. I was "gone" most of the time. It was horrible!!! Clearing up and feeling better means that garbage is getting out of your brain and allowing you to think again.
> >i'm lucky to have a group of pharms supporting me. i'm nervous about seeing psy today as she honestly doesn't believe i'll be able to come off drugs. she says its too far progessed, the damage has been done and is irreversible. but that goes against everything i read in new research that is not funded by drug companies.<<
Yep - I'm not a professional, but I'd wager that the "studies" are done so that the income can keep flowing in. Until there are credible studies done by independent labs, the truth will not be widely known. I'm anti-depressent free, and fine. Remember, though, everyone is different.
Take care of yourself and hang in there. It's a rough road, but worth it.
Posted by FaithT on June 16, 2004, at 13:54:44
In reply to Re: I'm off! (8 weeks) » Laurajean, posted by grannyclampett on June 16, 2004, at 9:24:59
Hello all..I just wanted to let you know that it really is getting better! The "shocks" or "zaps" are really lessening. The nightmares are becoming a little less psychedelic, alothough sleep itself is still a problem.
Anyway, Thank God, I am finally starting to feel semi-normal again.
Again, I did this the supposed correct way, and weaned down under a Dr.'s supervision, slowly...from 150, to 75, to 37.5..to none. That's when the you know what hit the fan...I had no clue!
I am SO grateful that I seem to be past most of it...I wish the same for all of you!
Love, Faith
Posted by boatsie on June 16, 2004, at 14:46:13
In reply to Re: I'm off...6 days!, posted by FaithT on June 16, 2004, at 13:54:44
Faith,
Re your message ... so the real withdrawal symptoms only started for you when you were totally off? Can you give me a timeframe for cut down?I am also working with nicotine addiction ... i quit in january for 7 wks and was so depressed due to dopamine withdrawal that I had to go on wellbutrin. I don't dare fiddle right now with cigarette withdrawal (which i'm convinced started again after 15 years because of the drug cocktail I've been on. ANyone else have any experience with withdrawal from nicotine?
Posted by FaithT on June 16, 2004, at 15:08:14
In reply to Re: I'm off...6 days! Faith, posted by boatsie on June 16, 2004, at 14:46:13
Hi Boatsie~
Yup..I was totally fine until that last 37.5 mg. capsule...Then all hell broke loose..no undertstatment. I kept saying to my husband, " I feel like I'm being zapped." I was so scared until I started reading that so many others go through the same thing...unfortunately.
Anyway, I weaned down over about 5 weeks...Some do it in a longer time frame. I guess, in all reality maybe it was a little too fast, but it seems not matter how slow you do it, you still have some horrid symptoms.
Anyway, like I said, it's day 6 or 7, and I'm almost fine...totally functional, though sleep deprived!
Best of luck to you sweetie! Take your time, and do what you feel is right for you...I'm not a smoker but I know many friends that say it's such a hard habit to break...very addictive.
Love, Faith
Posted by Jiggitykid on June 16, 2004, at 16:21:02
In reply to Re: I'm off...6 days! Faith » boatsie, posted by FaithT on June 16, 2004, at 15:08:14
>>..I was totally fine until that last 37.5 mg. capsule...Then all hell broke loose..no undertstatment. I kept saying to my husband, " I feel like I'm being zapped." I was so scared until I started reading that so many others go through the same thing...unfortunately.
Anyway, I weaned down over about 5 weeks...Some do it in a longer time frame. I guess, in all reality maybe it was a little too fast, but it seems not matter how slow you do it, you still have some horrid symptoms.<<You're exactly right. It doesn't matter - when that last grain is gone, withdrawal begins. Some say that they feel tapering is easier. Cold-turkey did it for me - I have know way of "comparing" whether my symptoms of withdrawal were any worse than someone who tapered. It was hell - that's the only way to describe it, and it sounds as if hell is experienced at all levels once the med is gone.
Hang in there. You can get past this!!
Posted by jbc on June 17, 2004, at 13:15:14
In reply to It DOES Get Better!, posted by allycat on June 12, 2004, at 18:17:42
Allycat...I'm wondering how the 5-HTP worked for you. I've had to be away from the board for quite a while, so just now saw this post about the natural supplement you mentioned. I too suffer from chronic depression & am looking for something natural to try. Any advice you or anyone else can give would be greatly appreciated!
> ...My doctor had planned for me to start taking another AD called Lustral, but i refuse after going thru this! Instead i have done some research & found a natural amino acid supplement called 5-HTP..it works in a similar way to AD's in that it helps the brain to produce seretonin(the feel good hormone) U can buy it at the health food store, so i got myself some capsules & plan to start taking them as soon as i can...
Posted by boatsie on June 17, 2004, at 13:57:23
In reply to Re: It DOES Get Better! » allycat, posted by jbc on June 17, 2004, at 13:15:14
i also am interested in hearing about 5Htp ... i had been sailing through my tapering off experience (abnout two weeks) when yesterday and last night had horrid symptoms --- headache, sweating, disembodied feelings HIGHLIGHTED by the return of the horrid imagery and demented delusional dreams .... i am researching something called true hope for detox ... will let you know.
Posted by cassandra on July 21, 2004, at 17:18:23
In reply to Re: It DOES Get Better!, posted by boatsie on June 17, 2004, at 13:57:23
I would like to say -for those who might be scared to start taking effexor because of all the horror stories out there- that my experience of this drug has been a very positive one.
I started taking effexor xr 37.5mg six months ago for major depression and almost immediately started feeling much better. Initial side effects like slight insomnia and being a bit too hyper subsided within two weeks. I went from being totally apathetic and incapacitated to enjoying things again, became very productive at work and was capable of dealing with major life changes that probably started my depressive episode. Anyway within two months I was as good as I have ever been in my life (32 yrs old). Recently I decided to maybe get off effexor. My doctor agreed and told me to start opening the capsules and getting half of the 37.5mg dosage each day and we would even try to reduce it further within three weeks. Well because of huge workload I forgot to fill my prescription before I started any of the tampering and went two days without effexor. What I felt was NOTHING, meaning nothing bad no withdrawl symptoms whatsoever. I called the doctor who said since I wasnt experiencing any withdrawl symptoms I should give it a try without the drug and let him know how it is going. It has been two weeks now, I feel as good as I did on effexor (which is very good) and I did not have any withdrwal symptoms.
Of course things could be very different for different people but I know that I got very scared initially of taking this drug and if I hadn't I would potentially still be suffering (a lot)
I hope this helps
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