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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by samplemethod on May 24, 2003, at 8:13:54
Hi guys,
Stumbled on your site. Found it very interesting, and the type of info I am interested in. Thanks for all of your interesting and contributive posts that I have read so far.
Anyway I have a small background in trying supplements to enhance feeling of wellbeing. I guess this was spurred on by the discovery that some thing so small (rec drugs) can affect your world so much(unfortunately not indefinately).
I would call myself mildy depressed and mildly anxious at times as a general guide, however have never really go to bad stages, lets say medium level dep and anxiety. However I have had pretty bad comedowns after rec drugs. I havent done rec drugs for like 2 years, and plan not too either. I drink here and there though.
However as all people have, I have been pissed off with life, people, myself, parents etc, and I've noticed that certain substances can affect my mood, and have tried diff supplements to make my view of the world nicer :)
I havent really stuck with anything at all as a supplement. None really have done much.
Havent tried any rx drugs, but im interested in trying tramadol( only cos i might be able to get it).. and selegiline if I can get it.have tried inositol... that was ok... I got pretty flushed on it, and doses of 1 gram( i never tried doses of over 2g) used to make me feel smacked out, but it never really made me feel good and ready to take on the world. Now i notice, when i try inositol at say 1 gram I get a little headache and get somewhat stimulated. not that nice of a stimulation though so i dont use it.
got a really really nice buzz off 100mg( like MDMA) of ALA the first but that wore off after 2 days, and now i take it regularly for fitness purposes, but i doesnt give me any type of high.
recently have been taking like over 20-30grams of fish oil, and i think that somewhat did something, but seems to not anymore or anything real special.
right now im feeling ok(average), just wanna be a bit more stimulated, and a bit more lovey.
5-htp doesnt really do much for me at all... anyone know if there is something else you can take with it so it can actually affect your serotonin levels in your brain.
A-L-C did nothing nice for me.
Anyway i bought NADH yesterday, (after reading some posts, especially Ron's trial). I tried it today (5mg). It flushed me, it gave me a headache that lasted over 8 hours, it stimulated me in the morning, but it didnt really feel nice, made me a little more anxious i guess, or just wired. I guess you could also say I was irritable... Ron says he got that way after weeks of taking it, so i dunno. Anyone have any thoughts on this... other ways to take it? other things to take it with to make it work better....im thinking of trying TMG as Ron has suggested. though i dunno why that would work to make it less stimulative and less irritating??Next on my list to try is L-theanine, and nicotinamide(btw i enjoy flushing)
Anyway, anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about what I have said, or can relate to me? I look forward to chatting with y'all.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 24, 2003, at 14:16:35
In reply to Hi, I'm new!! - Introduction - NADH was a bitch , posted by samplemethod on May 24, 2003, at 8:13:54
Hey Sample,
Welcome to pbabbleland.
> Anyway i bought NADH yesterday, (after reading some posts, especially Ron's trial). I tried it today (5mg). It flushed me, it gave me a headache that lasted over 8 hours, it stimulated me in the morning, but it didnt really feel nice, made me a little more anxious i guess, or just wired. I guess you could also say I was irritable... Ron says he got that way after weeks of taking it, so i dunno.
Based on your reaction, it doesn’t sound like Enada NADH is a good fit for you. You are attempting to treat your mild depression and anxiety, correct? Please reply with a list of your specific symptoms. It is my opinion that Enada NADH is best suited to treat atypical depressive symptoms (e.g.; anhedonia, anergy, low motivation, apathy, hypersomnia, etc) attributable to dopaminergic pathway problems. If your depression is not atypical, other supplements (or medications) might serve you better.
> Anyone have any thoughts on this... other ways to take it? other things to take it with to make it work better....im thinking of trying TMG as Ron has suggested. though i dunno why that would work to make it less stimulative and less irritating??
I agree; TMG is activating in and of itself so, at least at face value, it would not seem logical that it would make Enada NADH less stimulating. However, it's not that TMG makes Enada NADH less simulative and less irritating in a direct fashion, but instead, the TMG seems to extend the duration of effectiveness of an Enada NADH dose and, as a result, the irritability quotient is lowered indirectly by being able to reduce the NADH dosing frequency.
For example, in my (anecdotal) case, without TMG I needed to take 2.5 mg of Enada NADH once every four days in order to keep the atypical depression demons at bay. However, with the addition of 250 mg/day of TMG, I only need to take 2.5 mg of Enada NADH once per week. Therefore, by reducing the dosing frequency, my irritability is reduced.
Maybe TMG without the Enada NADH would help you. However, I hesitate to make any suggestions until I’ve seen your list of symptoms.
> Next on my list to try is L-theanine, and nicotinamide(btw i enjoy flushing)
I’ve not tried L-theanine so I can not comment on it. However, per a recommendation by johnj, I started taking 250 mg/day of vitamin B3 about five days ago. I’m currently taking niacin (nicotinic acid) but I plan to conduct a trial of niacinamide (nicotinamide) in place of the niacin within the next week or two. But I’m not going to change anything right away because the niacin is doing such an incredible job treating my irritability that I absolutely refuse to run the risk of rocking the boat. My words can not fully express how happy I am with the niacin trial thus far. I realize that it is early in the trial, but so far niacin (and/or perhaps niacinamide?) appears to be the final missing piece(s) in my brain chemistry stabilization project. Let me explain.
I am bipolar II and my symptoms fall into three main categories (presented in order of most enjoyable to most hated): 1) Mildly Euphoric Hypomania (tons of great ideas but jump from one uncompleted project to another without finishing anything, high energy, somewhat over-inflated self-confidence, very optimistic can-do attitude, tendency to be socially inappropriate, talkative, risk-taking behaviors, lessened need for sleep, tendency to overspend, etc); 2) Atypical Depression (anhedonia, anergy, low motivation, apathy, hypersomnia, very low self-confidence, negative self-talk – woe is me I’ll never get better, pessimistic doom-and-gloom, etc); 3) Dysphoric Mood States (GRRRRRRRRRR!!, flash rage, very low tolerance to frustration, anal retentive bordering on OCD-like thought patterns, highly critical of myself and others, negative self-talk -- this ain’t friggin fair, in your face get outta my way demeanor, etc).
The good news is that I now have medication and supplements on board that successfully treat each of these three categories of symptoms. Lithobid (600 mg/day, 0.4 mEq/l blood level) successfully treats my hypomania, Enada NADH and TMG keep me out of depression, and the recent addition of niacin has my dysphoric mood states under control. I’m hopeful that this cocktail has long-term efficacy.
I take many vitamins and supplements, and I won’t bore everyone by listing them all, but a couple deserves honorable mention. Magnesium (800 mg at bedtime each night) is a great sleep aid and seems to help balance my brain chemistry, fish oil provides me some pretty good mood stabilizing and antidepressive benefits, and I consider phosphatidyl serine to be worthwhile. Lastly, if you enjoy the flush, take niacin. Niacinamide does not cause a flush in most people (or so I’m told).
Best wishes.
-- Ron
Posted by Caleb462 on May 24, 2003, at 20:36:25
In reply to Hi, I'm new!! - Introduction - NADH was a bitch , posted by samplemethod on May 24, 2003, at 8:13:54
> Hi guys,
>
> Stumbled on your site. Found it very interesting, and the type of info I am interested in. Thanks for all of your interesting and contributive posts that I have read so far.
>
> Anyway I have a small background in trying supplements to enhance feeling of wellbeing. I guess this was spurred on by the discovery that some thing so small (rec drugs) can affect your world so much(unfortunately not indefinately).
>
> I would call myself mildy depressed and mildly anxious at times as a general guide, however have never really go to bad stages, lets say medium level dep and anxiety. However I have had pretty bad comedowns after rec drugs. I havent done rec drugs for like 2 years, and plan not too either. I drink here and there though.
>
> However as all people have, I have been pissed off with life, people, myself, parents etc, and I've noticed that certain substances can affect my mood, and have tried diff supplements to make my view of the world nicer :)
>
> I havent really stuck with anything at all as a supplement. None really have done much.
> Havent tried any rx drugs, but im interested in trying tramadol( only cos i might be able to get it).. and selegiline if I can get it.
>
> have tried inositol... that was ok... I got pretty flushed on it, and doses of 1 gram( i never tried doses of over 2g) used to make me feel smacked out, but it never really made me feel good and ready to take on the world. Now i notice, when i try inositol at say 1 gram I get a little headache and get somewhat stimulated. not that nice of a stimulation though so i dont use it.
>
> got a really really nice buzz off 100mg( like MDMA) of ALA the first but that wore off after 2 days, and now i take it regularly for fitness purposes, but i doesnt give me any type of high.
>
> recently have been taking like over 20-30grams of fish oil, and i think that somewhat did something, but seems to not anymore or anything real special.
>
> right now im feeling ok(average), just wanna be a bit more stimulated, and a bit more lovey.
>
> 5-htp doesnt really do much for me at all... anyone know if there is something else you can take with it so it can actually affect your serotonin levels in your brain.
>
> A-L-C did nothing nice for me.
>
>
> Anyway i bought NADH yesterday, (after reading some posts, especially Ron's trial). I tried it today (5mg). It flushed me, it gave me a headache that lasted over 8 hours, it stimulated me in the morning, but it didnt really feel nice, made me a little more anxious i guess, or just wired. I guess you could also say I was irritable... Ron says he got that way after weeks of taking it, so i dunno. Anyone have any thoughts on this... other ways to take it? other things to take it with to make it work better....im thinking of trying TMG as Ron has suggested. though i dunno why that would work to make it less stimulative and less irritating??
>
> Next on my list to try is L-theanine, and nicotinamide(btw i enjoy flushing)I ordered some L-theanine fairly recently, and it was a waste of money. NO effect, absolutely nothing. I even tried taking 400 mg (the max. reccomended dose is 200 mg) and still, nothing. Granted, this is just my experience, and it may work for others. For me, however, it was a BIG dissapointment.
> Anyway, anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about what I have said, or can relate to me? I look forward to chatting with y'all.
>
>
Posted by samplemethod on May 25, 2003, at 9:46:22
In reply to Re: Hi, I'm new!! - Introduction - NADH was a bitch , posted by Caleb462 on May 24, 2003, at 20:36:25
Thanks for your input guys.
To caleb, i think i might put off trying the l-theanine till i hear more reports about it.
Anyway it is my day after the NADH 5mg. Today seems less irritable. Though not much better.
ANyway I went out and bout nicotinamide today and also nicotinic acid.... which i actually had to get as a rx, but the pharmacist was cool about it.
I tried 250 mg of nicotinamide, was a little nicer afterwards yet still a wired /headache feeling from NADH was still lingering. I got no flush from nicotinamide. What I did notice is that when I took it just before lunch when i felt kinda hungry.... it really reduced my hunger and I didn't want to eat.... this continued till about dinner time.... I believe the effect upon me was the blood sugar regulation that some studies attribute to nicotinamide.... any even at dinner i didnt binge, which I believe I would have done, according to the deficit in calories I accumulated through the day. (or another reason could be mild stimulant affect creating the appetite suppresant)I think I will try nicotinic acid tomorrow in the morning and see how it goes. I am looking for the mellowed out feeling that people attribute to nicotinamide that apparently is induced in some, but in Rons case, he gets this from nicotinic acid.
In terms of diagnosis, which Ron questioned me about, I would say I am in a constant very mild depressive state(which i dunno if you would call it depressed at all), and I have mild-medium anxiety/social anxiety, and occasionally I get a mild manic state where I feel quite good and confident, and socially adept...but then that chills out, and I just go back to the mild depressive and mild-medium anxiety/social anxiety state. I would not say I go bipolar in that I would go low after my mild manic phase.....
Actually my mild manic phase isnt really manic at all, I would call it more feeling more confident and having more energy, but I dont really exhibit any real hyper behaviour like doing heaps of things, talking incessantly, sleeping little etc.... I would like to hope my mild manic phase is moreso my normal well self. ANyway that so called manic phase I talk about also doesnt go in any particular cycle. It just seems to come about when I am tackling life well, having fun, and connecting with people.
So what would you guys call me :) I dont think its anything real drastic... my life seems to work fine (apart from procrastination), it's just a bitch sometimes, and Im not as comfortable with people as I'd like to be.
ALso one other thing I'd like to mention is the feeling I got from NADH, was the feeling I get from 300mg tyrosine on an empty stomach. i.e. headache, stimulated (but not nicely feel-good stimulated like on amphetamines), and a little more anxious. I dont do the empty tyrosine thing, but I find if i have a protein powder with it, it takes the edge of the bad effects and ultimately makes me feel a bit more awake, but doesnt really make me feel anyway nicely stimulated as I feel on amphetamines.
anyway that'll do.. thanks guys
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Stumbled on your site. Found it very interesting, and the type of info I am interested in. Thanks for all of your interesting and contributive posts that I have read so far.
> >
> > Anyway I have a small background in trying supplements to enhance feeling of wellbeing. I guess this was spurred on by the discovery that some thing so small (rec drugs) can affect your world so much(unfortunately not indefinately).
> >
> > I would call myself mildy depressed and mildly anxious at times as a general guide, however have never really go to bad stages, lets say medium level dep and anxiety. However I have had pretty bad comedowns after rec drugs. I havent done rec drugs for like 2 years, and plan not too either. I drink here and there though.
> >
> > However as all people have, I have been pissed off with life, people, myself, parents etc, and I've noticed that certain substances can affect my mood, and have tried diff supplements to make my view of the world nicer :)
> >
> > I havent really stuck with anything at all as a supplement. None really have done much.
> > Havent tried any rx drugs, but im interested in trying tramadol( only cos i might be able to get it).. and selegiline if I can get it.
> >
> > have tried inositol... that was ok... I got pretty flushed on it, and doses of 1 gram( i never tried doses of over 2g) used to make me feel smacked out, but it never really made me feel good and ready to take on the world. Now i notice, when i try inositol at say 1 gram I get a little headache and get somewhat stimulated. not that nice of a stimulation though so i dont use it.
> >
> > got a really really nice buzz off 100mg( like MDMA) of ALA the first but that wore off after 2 days, and now i take it regularly for fitness purposes, but i doesnt give me any type of high.
> >
> > recently have been taking like over 20-30grams of fish oil, and i think that somewhat did something, but seems to not anymore or anything real special.
> >
> > right now im feeling ok(average), just wanna be a bit more stimulated, and a bit more lovey.
> >
> > 5-htp doesnt really do much for me at all... anyone know if there is something else you can take with it so it can actually affect your serotonin levels in your brain.
> >
> > A-L-C did nothing nice for me.
> >
> >
> > Anyway i bought NADH yesterday, (after reading some posts, especially Ron's trial). I tried it today (5mg). It flushed me, it gave me a headache that lasted over 8 hours, it stimulated me in the morning, but it didnt really feel nice, made me a little more anxious i guess, or just wired. I guess you could also say I was irritable... Ron says he got that way after weeks of taking it, so i dunno. Anyone have any thoughts on this... other ways to take it? other things to take it with to make it work better....im thinking of trying TMG as Ron has suggested. though i dunno why that would work to make it less stimulative and less irritating??
> >
> > Next on my list to try is L-theanine, and nicotinamide(btw i enjoy flushing)
>
> I ordered some L-theanine fairly recently, and it was a waste of money. NO effect, absolutely nothing. I even tried taking 400 mg (the max. reccomended dose is 200 mg) and still, nothing. Granted, this is just my experience, and it may work for others. For me, however, it was a BIG dissapointment.
>
> > Anyway, anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about what I have said, or can relate to me? I look forward to chatting with y'all.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Ron Hill on May 25, 2003, at 11:52:56
In reply to Re: new!! - Intro - NADH bitch RON, Caleb, posted by samplemethod on May 25, 2003, at 9:46:22
Sample,
What kind of exercise program do you have in place? How rigorous is it?
-- Ron
Posted by samplemethod on May 25, 2003, at 19:36:57
In reply to Re: new!! - Intro - NADH bitch RON, Caleb » samplemethod, posted by Ron Hill on May 25, 2003, at 11:52:56
Ron,
Its fairly good i think. about 3-4 hours of soccer/basketball medium aerobic level. Not much weight training at the moment.
Got any info about exercise affects upon me. Basically, over all, I just think I need to chill out and dont take life too seriously. if i had a method or a drug that could make that easier to accomplish I believe then the rest will more easily fall into place. In other words I think I have enough energy in general, its just its nervous energy that doesnt feel that nice at times (maybe too much cortisol or something similar in my system)....and if I can chill out a little in the way alcohol/ mild benzo, with a little bit more serotonin/lovey/chill out feeling....my life will flow better.
> Sample,
>
> What kind of exercise program do you have in place? How rigorous is it?
>
> -- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on May 26, 2003, at 1:21:50
In reply to Re: new!! - Intro - NADH bitch RON, Caleb, posted by samplemethod on May 25, 2003, at 19:36:57
Sample,
> Its fairly good i think. about 3-4 hours of soccer/basketball medium aerobic level. Not much weight training at the moment.
Sounds great.
> Got any info about exercise affects upon me.Here's some interesting information about exercise taken from the web page at http://www.psycheducation.com/mechanism/introduction%20to%20mechanism.htm :
<quote>
Finally we have arrived at the new "discovery" of the last several years of research. This is the part that's not "for sure" yet, but looks very probable. It all centers, for now, around this "brain derived neurotrophic factor" (BDNF). This is the molecule that antidepressants increase, that depression appears to decrease, and that other effective antidepressants like ECTDuman(d) , exerciseOliff , and rTMS Muller also increase. What is this molecule and what does it do?As it sounds, this is a molecule that "trophs" neurons. What do "trophs" do? This term comes from the Greek word trophe, which means nourishment. A trophic factor is a molecule that somehow stimulates or allows neurons to feed, to grow, and to flourish. Without such factors neurons decrease in activity and connections to other cells. Both lithium and valproate, mood stabilizers used in bipolar disorder, increase another neurotrophic factor called bcl-2. Estrogen is another neurotrophic factor! Unfortunately, we don't know exactly what to do with that fact, but as we learn, I'll keep you posted on the Hormones and Mood site.
So, we just learned that the end effect of taking an antidepressant -- or regular exercise, or ECT, or rTMS -- is to increase BDNF; and that when the cell nucleus makes more BDNF, it helps nourish the neuron. The neuron becomes more active and makes more connections to other cells.
And this is really the only part of the story that's still uncertain. Is that the "last step"? Is it really BDNF that is the "final common path" by which all effective antidepressant approaches work? If that's so, then psychotherapy, which also definitely works in depression, ought to increase BDNF too. That hasn't been tested yet and probably won't be anytime soon (the therapy people and the molecular people are not across the hall from one another).
If you want to see some nifty pictures of BDNF itself, and see Prozac maintaining BDNF levels under stress, go on. Otherwise, you can go back to the menu of options here at PsychEducation.org.
<end quote>
What did you decide about trying approximately 250 mg/day of TMG? Also, do you think the niacinamide and/or niacin is worth continuing?
-- Ron
This is the end of the thread.
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