![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 118. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on November 30, 2009, at 12:53:40
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept, posted by Meltingpot on November 30, 2009, at 9:27:54
> Perhaps I'm looking for a more profound response in my search to be lifted out of depression. I expect colours to look brighter, music to sound better, my sense of enjoyment to be increased.
Me too. Exactly.
> I know I could never get that from placebo and it is not something that exercise has ever given me.
I forgot that I did try running for a few months. Nothing.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2009, at 19:52:44
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on November 30, 2009, at 12:53:40
Scott maybe it's the diagnosis as mine is Gad. Who knows? Phillipa
Posted by mtdewcmu on November 30, 2009, at 23:27:09
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept, posted by Meltingpot on November 30, 2009, at 9:27:54
> I'm also very skeptical about "the placebo affect" when it comes to depression. I honestly believe that if somebody has a placebo response to a medication or herbal supplement or whatever then their depression is more psychological otherwise, they would know a placebo response for what it is.
>Not everybody has chronic depression like us. For a lot of people, depression is transient and will go away on its own. In a clinical study, the placebo effect encompasses depression that resolves spontaneously as well as people who cure themselves by believing in the drug. Some people may also under-report their symptoms toward the end of the study in an effort to please the researchers.
Posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 2:49:39
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skeptic, posted by SLS on November 27, 2009, at 4:07:34
Scott,
I agree that the patient may be unable to exercise due to severe depression-induced anergy, amotivation, and anhedonia. However, let's not dismiss the fact that exercise improves brain functioning. That's beyond dispute. For example, it is well known that exercise increases BDNF; and this pays very large rewards.
Please scan the links, my very good friend:
http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/jpn/vol-31/issue-2/pdf/pg84.pdf
http://www.ulbruxelles.be/facs/ism/docs/behaviorBDNF.pdf
http://www.physci.ucla.edu/research/GomezPinilla/publications/ReviewHormesis.pdf (click down to access all 14 pages)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g441495247401673/fulltext.pdf?page=1
http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=pdf&file=000223730
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2614307/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2597158/
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n11/full/1301671a.html
http://bmbreports.org/jbmb/jbmb_files/%5B42-5%5D0905250942_(239-244)BMB222.pdf
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/62/5/633
http://svaynman.com/images/exerciseBDNFcognition.pdf
http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/88/5/2187
-- Ron
dx: Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling and mild OCPD
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
500 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
1.9 mg/day Deplin (taken with methyl B-12 and P-5-P)
Dark therapy via LowBlueLight glasses------------------------------------------
> I think that this is another case of needing to acknowledge the interindividual differences that exist in the presentations of what we are all calling "depression". I never tried performing vigorous aerobic exercise every day for 3-4 weeks. I have lifted tons of weight, though. My exercise schedule comprised 4 times a week with alternating muscle groups. I did this for years without gleaning any benefit for my depression. There was a time when I did take brisk walks of 5 miles every day. Again, no help.
>
> I think one needs to respect the potential for depression to render one nearly motionless with paralyzing psychomotor retardation and suffocating anergia. To intimate that a person with such a presentation can exercise if they were only to try hard enough can insinuate that they perhaps are somehow inferior and simply do not want to do what might be necessary to get well. Of course performing exercise is generally a good thing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of it. Fortunately, there are other ways of treating depression. Exercise is not a necessary component of most treatment regimes. Actually, there are a few doctors who believe that intense anaerobic resistance exercise like weight-lifting can make someone feel worse instead of better - something about depleting brain amines. I don't know if I agree with this, though.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by morganator on December 1, 2009, at 3:06:36
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept, posted by mtdewcmu on November 30, 2009, at 23:27:09
I've said this before, exercise may not be the cure for your depression, but if you can get yourself to do it , you will be healthier and you will be less likely to suffer from the damage that chronic depression does to the brain and cardiovascular system.
If you are capable of it, it is your choice-Exercise and be healthier and possibly feel a little better, or don't exercise.
I always recommend that people try to think positively during exercise. I find that you can sort of rewire your thinking this way. It may not work for everyone but it might be worth giving it a shot.
Sometimes it is a matter of finding the type of exercise that suits you. Some people play racquet ball or squash or some other sport. Some like to bike ride or ride stationary bikes. Some love running. Some do yoga. Some people just enjoy a good walk.
If suffer from depression so badly that you can't exercise, hopefully you get better at least enough so that you can exercise and enjoy other things life has to offer that are good and healing(like having regular contact with people you enjoy spending time with).
Posted by morganator on December 1, 2009, at 3:13:30
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept, posted by mtdewcmu on November 30, 2009, at 23:27:09
> > I'm also very skeptical about "the placebo affect" when it comes to depression. I honestly believe that if somebody has a placebo response to a medication or herbal supplement or whatever then their depression is more psychological otherwise, they would know a placebo response for what it is.
> >
>
> Not everybody has chronic depression like us. For a lot of people, depression is transient and will go away on its own. In a clinical study, the placebo effect encompasses depression that resolves spontaneously as well as people who cure themselves by believing in the drug. Some people may also under-report their symptoms toward the end of the study in an effort to please the researchers.The benefits of exercise on mood are not placebo. Just because you do not benefit from exercise(who knows maybe you will some day) does not mean that the benefits are placebo.
I do think there is something to say for people feeling good about working out so they feel less stressed or depressed later. It's like accomplishing anything and feeling good about it after. Still, exercise relieves stress and anxiety and has specific effects on the brain leaving many to feel less stressed and depressed leaving the gym as they were going into the gym.
Posted by morganator on December 1, 2009, at 3:14:55
In reply to Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 2:49:39
I second that
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
In reply to Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 2:49:39
Hi Ron.
> I agree that the patient may be unable to exercise due to severe depression-induced anergy, amotivation, and anhedonia. However, let's not dismiss the fact that exercise improves brain functioning.
This feels like someone is trying to force a sugar pill down my throat. Give me something that works for ME.
What is so hard about acknowledging the fact that exercise will not benefit a sizable percentage of people who suffer from depression? Let's not extol the virtues of exercise on physical fitness. That is irrelevant to this discussion.
Regarding BDNF, if it were simply a matter of increasing its production, the only drug that would ever be needed to treat MDD and BD is lithium. Unfortunately, things are more complicated than that. Whatever benefits you think exercise has on brain function are either missing the target or not robust enough. Personally, I think it misses the target in a large number of people.
It is harmful when one person insists that another person is not experiencing what they "should" be, despite that person having met the criteria set by the first person.
In 1982, some of the most progressive research psychiatrists in the world insisted that my ultra-rapid cycling was due to a variability in my processing of unidentified pscychological pathologies. I was incredulous that my treatment team was so blind, especially with Ronald R. Fieve's office door being located just down the hall. I had already tried psychotherapy for 6 years using 4 therapists. Then, imipramine showed me what consciousness is without depression. Fortunately, I didn't internalize my doctors' assertions that I was in need of more psychotherapy and that drug therapy was not indicated. If they only had opened their eyes and minds, they would have seen the striking regularity of my ultra-rapid cycling, and realized that they were looking at a biogenic affective illness. Fieve would have diagnosed me properly right away, but then I would have had to suffer through trials of rubidium. I knew.
For people whose depressions are areactive to exercise, we know. We just know.
- Scott
Posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 10:34:03
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
Scott,
It is not my intent to imply that you must respond favorably to exercise. Different pts respond to differing tx's.
Further, it is certainly not my intent to question your ability to discern what works and what does not work for you as an individual. To the contrary; you are one of the best I know at being in tune with the effectiveness of various treatments and the degree that the tx's affect your well-being.
Instead, my only point is that, generally speaking, exercise can make positive measurable changes within the brain.
Scott, for the first time in the ten years that we have known each other, I clearly hurt your feelings. And, what hurts you hurts me.
{Ron is: boo-hoo, boo-hoo ... tears, tears}. But, you still love me like a brother, right?
-- Ron
-----------------------
> Hi Ron.
>
> > I agree that the patient may be unable to exercise due to severe depression-induced anergy, amotivation, and anhedonia. However, let's not dismiss the fact that exercise improves brain functioning.
>
> This feels like someone is trying to force a sugar pill down my throat. Give me something that works for ME.
>
> What is so hard about acknowledging the fact that exercise will not benefit a sizable percentage of people who suffer from depression? Let's not extol the virtues of exercise on physical fitness. That is irrelevant to this discussion.
>
> Regarding BDNF, if it were simply a matter of increasing its production, the only drug that would ever be needed to treat MDD and BD is lithium. Unfortunately, things are more complicated than that. Whatever benefits you think exercise has on brain function are either missing the target or not robust enough. Personally, I think it misses the target in a large number of people.
>
> It is harmful when one person insists that another person is not experiencing what they "should" be, despite that person having met the criteria set by the first person.
>
> In 1982, some of the most progressive research psychiatrists in the world insisted that my ultra-rapid cycling was due to a variability in my processing of unidentified pscychological pathologies. I was incredulous that my treatment team was so blind, especially with Ronald R. Fieve's office door being located just down the hall. I had already tried psychotherapy for 6 years using 4 therapists. Then, imipramine showed me what consciousness is without depression. Fortunately, I didn't internalize my doctors' assertions that I was in need of more psychotherapy and that drug therapy was not indicated. If they only had opened their eyes and minds, they would have seen the striking regularity of my ultra-rapid cycling, and realized that they were looking at a biogenic affective illness. Fieve would have diagnosed me properly right away, but then I would have had to suffer through trials of rubidium. I knew.
>
> For people whose depressions are areactive to exercise, we know. We just know.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Katgirl on December 1, 2009, at 10:44:12
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
OK, coming late to this thread, and am sick so can't read the whole thing, so I am just going to pipe in with my own experience (which is all I can ever do anyway, right?)
When I was clinically depressed with psycho motor retardation etc etc. I was told that I needed to try to keep moving etc etc. I would try to go for walks. It was exhausting, it made me worse, but I did it because it was what my doctor instructed. Basically it never helped at all.
Now, after rTMS, I have mild/moderate depression depending on the day. Now Exercise is crucial for me. Especially exercising outside (bike riding etc). It is so helpful for me that I get very concerned about a setback when I can't exercise. This fall I had major surgery and was out of commission for several weeks. I was really starting to hit the skids by the end of my recovery. Getting back on my exercise schedule was crucial.
For me moderate exercise is the key. Enough aerobic exercise to perk me up and get my endorphins going but not so much that it exhausts me.
So, in short I think it depends what kind of depression you have whether exercise will work for you. At least that is what my personal experience has taught me.
In the end, all of us are different. What works for one won't work for all. We all just need to keep trying.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 1, 2009, at 10:55:04
In reply to Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 2:49:39
I guess I am going to have to skim through all of those studies now. But I expect that all of them are flawed in similar ways.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 1, 2009, at 11:15:12
In reply to Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 2:49:39
> Please scan the links, my very good friend:
>
> http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/jpn/vol-31/issue-2/pdf/pg84.pdf
>That article postulates a mechanism; it doesn't prove that exercise works. You should have posted these studies instead (quoted from the paper):
"Most germane to the present article are the recent studies that have assessed the effects of exercise on patients with MDD. Three articles are of particular interest. First, Dimeo et al99 assessed the efficacy of exercise in the treatment of moderate-to-severe MDD. In this study, exercise significantly alleviated the condition. In the second, Mather et al100 assessed the effects of exercise classes as an adjunct to antidepressant medication. The patients who participated in the exercise classes displayed greater improvement than did the control patients, who attended health education talks. Third, Dunn et al101 assessed the effect of the dose of exercise on 80 adults with MDD. There were 3 conditions: moderate aerobic exercise, low-intensity aerobic exercise and flexibility exercise. The moderate aerobic exercise group improved significantly more than the other 2 groups."
> http://www.ulbruxelles.be/facs/ism/docs/behaviorBDNF.pdf
>Same problem.
> http://www.physci.ucla.edu/research/GomezPinilla/publications/ReviewHormesis.pdf (click down to access all 14 pages)
>This article is a literature review, not a study. It doesn't contain proof of anything.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/g441495247401673/fulltext.pdf?page=1
>I can only see one page of the preceding article.
That study deals with DHA, not exercise directly. Moreover, the experiment was done on rats, which will exercise spontaneously unless they are kept in confinement. So, studies on rats tell us more about the negative effects of confinement than they do the positive effects of exercise.
It's too tedious to go through all of these articles. Reply with 2-3 good ones if you can.
Neal
> http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=pdf&file=000223730
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2614307/
>
> http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=3ykTAQ7QIegC&oi=fnd&pg=PA33&dq=BDNF+exercise+depression&ots=Awf7zrzXog&sig=w5r8n2IZ25Ue2o7EU8phqsszrkc#v=onepage&q=BDNF%20exercise%20depression&f=false
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2597158/
>
> http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n11/full/1301671a.html
>
> http://bmbreports.org/jbmb/jbmb_files/%5B42-5%5D0905250942_(239-244)BMB222.pdf
>
> http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/62/5/633
>
> http://svaynman.com/images/exerciseBDNFcognition.pdf
>
> http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/88/5/2187
>
> -- Ron
>
> dx: Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling and mild OCPD
>
> 600 mg/day Trileptal
> 200 mg/day Lamictal
> 500 mg/day Keppra
> 90 mg/day Nardil
> 1.9 mg/day Deplin (taken with methyl B-12 and P-5-P)
> Dark therapy via LowBlueLight glasses
>
> ------------------------------------------
>
> > I think that this is another case of needing to acknowledge the interindividual differences that exist in the presentations of what we are all calling "depression". I never tried performing vigorous aerobic exercise every day for 3-4 weeks. I have lifted tons of weight, though. My exercise schedule comprised 4 times a week with alternating muscle groups. I did this for years without gleaning any benefit for my depression. There was a time when I did take brisk walks of 5 miles every day. Again, no help.
> >
> > I think one needs to respect the potential for depression to render one nearly motionless with paralyzing psychomotor retardation and suffocating anergia. To intimate that a person with such a presentation can exercise if they were only to try hard enough can insinuate that they perhaps are somehow inferior and simply do not want to do what might be necessary to get well. Of course performing exercise is generally a good thing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of it. Fortunately, there are other ways of treating depression. Exercise is not a necessary component of most treatment regimes. Actually, there are a few doctors who believe that intense anaerobic resistance exercise like weight-lifting can make someone feel worse instead of better - something about depleting brain amines. I don't know if I agree with this, though.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:16:09
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by Katgirl on December 1, 2009, at 10:44:12
> When I was clinically depressed with psycho motor retardation etc etc. I was told that I needed to try to keep moving etc etc. I would try to go for walks. It was exhausting, it made me worse, but I did it because it was what my doctor instructed. Basically it never helped at all.
> Now, after rTMS, I have mild/moderate depression depending on the day. Now Exercise is crucial for me. Especially exercising outside (bike riding etc). It is so helpful for me that I get very concerned about a setback when I can't exercise. This fall I had major surgery and was out of commission for several weeks. I was really starting to hit the skids by the end of my recovery. Getting back on my exercise schedule was crucial.Thanks for posting this. It is foreign to me that exercise should have such a positive impact on one's state of depression. What is most fascinating about your story is how different your response to exercise has been before and after rTMS.
I hope you continue to feel better.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:22:15
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 10:34:03
Hi Ron.
No, I am not angry with you, especially because I know that your motivations are of true concern rather than of wanting to win a pedantic debate.
I still love you.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Katgirl on December 1, 2009, at 11:40:05
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Katgirl, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:16:09
I think exercise is VERY helfpul for my anxiety as well. But I guess that makes more sense than the depression. And to clarify, it is not like exercise makes me all better, but it definitely makes an appreciable difference. Interestingly enough, exercise also benefited me when I was on a medication that worked for me. So for me, like all things, I seem to need to be at a certain level of wellness for adjunct therapies like exercise etc to work.
Yeah, the rTMS thing is so interesting. A bit like a reset button for my brain (although not quite all the way!) Wish they could find some way to make it work on anxiety as well!
Take care! K
Posted by Meltingpot on December 1, 2009, at 12:23:10
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on November 30, 2009, at 12:53:40
Hi Scott,
Glad somebody feels the same way as I do about what constitutes a response for them.
It's strange really, for just over a year I've been going to these weekly spiritual sessions (where they pray over you). I tend to sit on the fence as far as religion goes, neither believing or disbelieving. I know that when I'm feeling very bad though, I think that God is punishing me.
The spiritual healing sessions haven't really been helping (at least I don't think they have) but I made a friend there who became a born again christian years ago after experiencing the power of the holy spirit. I asked her how it felt and she said that she suddenly noticed the colours of everything around her, how they seemed really vivid. I asked her if she was taking any medication at the time as it sounds something like an antidepressant response. I keep going to the spiritual healing hoping that if the medication doesn't work then perhaps I'll be invested with the Power of the Holy Spirit instead. I would like to have some faith in something as I don't feel I have any faith in anything apart from medication (and that doesn't work so well any more). I just think maybe if I could truly believe that there was a God up there and he/she/it loved me then it might help me a bit.
I do hate myself sometimes for always being so negative about more hollistic treatments, secretly I envy people who do feel better from exercise or taking vitamin B tablets or therapy.
Denise
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 12:59:20
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by Meltingpot on December 1, 2009, at 12:23:10
For me, my spirituality helps me to accept what is and not curse God for what isn't. It does not improve my biological depression, but it does help to maintain my psychological health and sense of well-being.
- Scott
Posted by RocketMan on December 1, 2009, at 14:02:23
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 12:59:20
> For me, my spirituality helps me to accept what is and not curse God for what isn't. It does not improve my biological depression, but it does help to maintain my psychological health and sense of well-being.
>
>
> - ScottAmen to that. If not for my faith, the world would not be a place for me. With faith, I am able to remain here, one day at a time. +
Rick
Posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 16:00:42
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:22:15
> I still love you.Phew!
-- Ron
Posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2009, at 20:42:27
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by RocketMan on December 1, 2009, at 14:02:23
I have lacked religion all my life wasn't exposed to it so fear everything. Not good Phillipa
Posted by morganator on December 1, 2009, at 23:34:18
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
>Whatever benefits you think exercise has on brain function are either missing the target or not robust enough. Personally, I think it misses the target in a large number of people.
I don't think someone has to get significant relief from their depression for exercise to benefit the depressed brain. Exercise can be used simply to maintain brain health/fitness and help prevent depression/anxiety/stress from damaging the brain.
I think one important thing that we are seeing from what people have been saying is that people are more likely to exercise and benefit from it if much of their depression has been treated through medication or some other treatment.
So we could all agree that a large portion of the depressed/anxious population benefits from exercise(probably people suffering from anxiety will be more likely to benefit) and a large portion of the population does not. Who knows whether one is considerably more than the other. It would be interesting to find out.
I have to admit I have been pushing exercise here. I have also come off as I am trying to win an argument. The same can be said for someone else(not you Scott). What matters to me most is that people would at least try to exercise if they can and hopefully feel good because of it.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:21:13
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2009, at 20:42:27
> I have lacked religion all my life wasn't exposed to it so fear everything. Not good Phillipa
I was raised with religion, but I never found it to be a comfort. I never felt secure that God would let me into heaven. So it was another source of anxiety.
Interesting that someone brought up religion in an exercise thread. Exercise is a religion to some people. It gives them a holier-than-thou attitude toward people that don't.
I will exercise if I feel like it. I don't appreciate being lectured to about it. The evidence for benefits from exercise is pretty flimsy from what I've seen. It's certainly not strong enough to make somebody feel like they are to blame for their depression if they don't exercise.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:27:12
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by morganator on December 1, 2009, at 23:34:18
> I have to admit I have been pushing exercise here. I have also come off as I am trying to win an argument. The same can be said for someone else(not you Scott). What matters to me most is that people would at least try to exercise if they can and hopefully feel good because of it.
>I have a feeling you are referring to me, since I have gone out on a limb supporting the devil's advocate position. I'm afraid to say that you came across as a bit belligerent in your support of exercise, but I intuit that you are generally a decent person nonetheless.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:31:34
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:21:13
I think a lot of people exercise even though they hate doing it and as a result it makes them angry. That is one reason that I don't force myself to do it.
(Or perhaps angry people channel their energy into exercise as a means of sublimation.)
Posted by Ron Hill on December 2, 2009, at 1:13:21
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
Scott,
The following article purports to describe a condition where exercise is highly detrimental to the patient's wellbeing.
<Begin Quote from Article>
Free radicals are unstable molecules that move freely through the body and bond with other molecules in healthy cells, damaging chromosomes, enzymes, cell membranes and mitochondria through oxidization (the same process that makes iron rust).
The most damaging free radicals are produced within the cell's mitochondria. Believe it or not, exercise can actually speed up this process by as much as 200%. These added free radicals likely can't be quelled by our inherent antioxidant defenses, especially with today's sub-par diets. Instead they damage our cell systems resulting in decreased energy levels, accelerated aging and decreased mental performance.
<End Quote from Article>
http://www.howlifeworks.com/health_beauty/energy_boost_1245976566/?cid=7060bz
Overlook the product endorsement.
Who says I don't strive to provide balance?
:-)
-- Ron
dx: Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling and mild OCPD
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
500 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
1.9 mg/day Deplin (taken with methyl B-12 and P-5-P)
Dark therapy via LowBlueLight glasses
Exercise: Brisk walk with dog on foothills trails, Ride, Lift, Swim, and Sauna-------------------------------------------
> Hi Ron.
> > I agree that the patient may be unable to exercise due to severe depression-induced anergy, amotivation, and anhedonia. However, let's not dismiss the fact that exercise improves brain functioning.> This feels like someone is trying to force a sugar pill down my throat. Give me something that works for ME.
> What is so hard about acknowledging the fact that exercise will not benefit a sizable percentage of people who suffer from depression? Let's not extol the virtues of exercise on physical fitness. That is irrelevant to this discussion.
> Regarding BDNF, if it were simply a matter of increasing its production, the only drug that would ever be needed to treat MDD and BD is lithium. Unfortunately, things are more complicated than that. Whatever benefits you think exercise has on brain function are either missing the target or not robust enough. Personally, I think it misses the target in a large number of people.> It is harmful when one person insists that another person is not experiencing what they "should" be, despite that person having met the criteria set by the first person.
> In 1982, some of the most progressive research psychiatrists in the world insisted that my ultra-rapid cycling was due to a variability in my processing of unidentified pscychological pathologies. I was incredulous that my treatment team was so blind, especially with Ronald R. Fieve's office door being located just down the hall. I had already tried psychotherapy for 6 years using 4 therapists. Then, imipramine showed me what consciousness is without depression. Fortunately, I didn't internalize my doctors' assertions that I was in need of more psychotherapy and that drug therapy was not indicated. If they only had opened their eyes and minds, they would have seen the striking regularity of my ultra-rapid cycling, and realized that they were looking at a biogenic affective illness. Fieve would have diagnosed me properly right away, but then I would have had to suffer through trials of rubidium. I knew.> For people whose depressions are areactive to exercise, we know. We just know.
> - Scott
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