![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 6:31:21
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » maxime, posted by SLS on October 30, 2010, at 5:36:56
> Hi.
>
> http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/brainstorm/br6304.htm
>
> There are a bunch more. Pain is a putative symptom of depression.
>
>
> - ScottI think we have to be careful about assuming that everything is due to someone's mental health label. See, this blog entry by a psychiatrist who definitely is not anti-meds.
http://lockupdoc.com/2010/05/psychiatric-patients-with-medical-illness-may-not-be-taken-seriously/
Dr. Stahl is another one of those professionals who isn't exactly bias free.
http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com/search/label/Steven%20Stahl
Please understand I don't disagree that pain can be a part of depression. But what I found disturbing about his article is there is no attempt to even distinguish situations in which pain might not have anything to do with depression.
That could be very costly to someone's life.
49er
Posted by linkadge on October 30, 2010, at 7:26:17
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » SLS, posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 6:31:21
Well, not tylenol, but the metabolite of tylenol (AM404) is a cannabanoid reuptake inhibitor.
It was recently shown that the metabolite of tylenol (previous mechanism of action unknown) is a cannabanoid reuptake inhibitor. Thus, it has a central (not peripherial) mechanism of action. So, perhaps your depression is a result of (or accociated with) low cannabanoid function.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM404
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 30, 2010, at 7:30:53
In reply to Re: tylenol is a cannabanoid reuptake inhibitor, posted by linkadge on October 30, 2010, at 7:26:17
I wouldn't be suprised if some depressions were not entirely based on a endocannabanoid deficiancy.
Insomnia, anxiety, depression, anorexia, low pain threshold, mood lability, are all associated with the cannabanoid system.
Interestingly too, activating the cannabanoid system apparently reduces the activity of sodium and calcium channels. Since bipolar treatments ususally involve modulation of these ion channels, I do give credit to those who claim MJ cais a mood stabilizer for them.
Linkadge
Posted by Maxime on October 30, 2010, at 8:33:35
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » maxime, posted by floatingbridge on October 30, 2010, at 0:16:57
> Maxime, could you have some osteoarthritis? Hips are usually affected. An xray could show it.
>
> When do you hurt the most, morning, evening?
>
> Joints? Knees, toes, finger tips or first joints of fingers?
>
> Have you had a bone scan?
>
> Sorry you are experiencing so much pain :(I hurt throughout the day but mostly when I have been in one position too long. Um, the pain in my hips and back radiates down my bum (sorry). The joints in my wrists hurt and the middle joint in my finger. My knees hurt and the bottom of my feet really hurt ... that is a lot of pain!
I have told my GP and my Endo. Neither suggested a bone scan or x-ray. Idiots.
Class is starting ... must go!
Posted by SLS on October 30, 2010, at 8:50:04
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » SLS, posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 6:31:21
> > Hi.
> >
> > http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/brainstorm/br6304.htm
> >
> > There are a bunch more. Pain is a putative symptom of depression.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> I think we have to be careful about assuming that everything is due to someone's mental health label.Yes. I'm sure that Dr. Stahl, being a trained medical doctor, embraces the idea that, invariably, all pain is caused by depression. NOT.
> See, this blog entry by a psychiatrist who definitely is not anti-meds.
> http://lockupdoc.com/2010/05/psychiatric-patients-with-medical-illness-may-not-be-taken-seriously/
I invite you to read the literature you refer to. The word "depression" appears nowhere in the text. It is unfortunate that the mentally ill should not be treated seriously when they have physical complaints. This might be the result of depressed patients presenting with pain but without any other organic condition to be found. Instead of recognizing that pain could be a symptom of depression, they are sent home without a diagnosis and without treatment. I believe this is precisely what Dr. Stahl would like to see remedied. That's all.
> Dr. Stahl is another one of those professionals who isn't exactly bias free.What do you mean by this? What exactly has Stahl done to deserve disparaging remarks? The blog intimates wrong-doing, but does not provide details or proof of this.
I have followed much of Stahl's work for over a decade. I like him. If you have not read his work, perhaps doing so would provide you with a better idea as to the quality of his work. Sometimes, you must judge the work on its own merits rather than presume knowledge of the author's motivations. Being payed by drug companies for lectures and other services rendered can give the appearance of bias and impropriety. However, it doesn't prove it. There are people working on ways to mitigate this. It is difficult to find funding for pure research.
> http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com/search/label/Steven%20Stahl
I performed several literature searches on Google using various combinations of keywords. The only hit that comes up repeatedly intimating ethical breaches by Dr. Stahl is the one you linked to. Perhaps you will have better luck. Use "stephen m stahl" as keywords, including the quotes. Let's go cherry-picking.
> Please understand I don't disagree that pain can be a part of depression.
That is the only point to be made by Stahl in the Brainstorm piece. He never states that all pain experienced by people is due to mental illness. He does offer a physiological mechanism by which 5-HT/NE reuptake inhibitors can address depression-induced hyperalgesia.
> But what I found disturbing about his article is there is no attempt to even distinguish situations in which pain might not have anything to do with depression.
I guess Stahl relies to a degree on the education level of his readers. There are myriad reasons why someone can experience pain. We all learn that as children. I don't think Stahl set out to list every medical condition ever recorded for which pain is a symptom. His thesis was to describe the existence of pain as a symptom of depression, just in case anyone remained ignorant of this fact.
> That could be very costly to someone's life.
Medical mistakes often can be.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 9:27:10
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » 49er, posted by SLS on October 30, 2010, at 8:50:04
<<Yes. I'm sure that Dr. Stahl, being a trained medical doctor, embraces the idea that, invariably, all pain is caused by depression. NOT.>>
Just because someone is a trained medical doctor doesn't mean they don't have biases. This is true of non psychiatrists also.
<< I invite you to read the literature you refer to. The word "depression" appears nowhere in the text. It is unfortunate that the mentally ill should not be treated seriously when they have physical complaints. This might be the result of depressed patients presenting with pain but without any other organic condition to be found. Instead of recognizing that pain could be a symptom of depression, they are sent home without a diagnosis and without treatment. I believe this is precisely what Dr. Stahl would like to see remedied. That's all.>>Fair point.
Regarding Dr. Stahl and drug companies, click on this link:
http://www.cspinet.org/cgi-bin/integrity.cgi
That is not cherry picked as those are cold hard facts.
He is connected to several drugs companies financially.
No, that doesn't mean that someone is necessarily dishonest but I think it is fair to point out when evaluating someone's work if they have a financial conflict.
That is no different from the folks on this board who rightfully pointed out that one of the critics of the Star D study also had a financial conflict. Just like their remarks weren't disparaging, either are mine.
49er
Posted by lamictal on October 30, 2010, at 14:41:45
In reply to Depression HURTS, posted by maxime on October 29, 2010, at 21:39:53
> I know have mentioned this before in other posts, but I have a question about it. Today my aches and pain were really bad. I was out with a friend and we were sitting down. It HURT so much to get up. Everything hurt! It hurt the most in my hip bones. Anyhow, I took two extra strength Tylenol and they helped with the aches and pains I have in my body. If depression is causing these pains, would Tylenol be able to help the way it did?
>
> I am so exhausted most of the time. Not tired, but exhausted. A coupld of nights last week I went to bed at 7:30 pm. Usually I go to bed at midnight and I only sleep 4 hours a night. I need more sleep now.
>
> I saw my endo about 5-6 weeks ago and everything was ok with my thyroid. I told her about my pain and she didn't ask me any questions about it.
>
> I hurt every day. At work I take Tylenol during the day to help ease the pain. I hate taking so much Tylenol ... but it helps and it's hard to teach when I am in so much pain and discomfort.
>
> That was a long winded way of asking if Tylenol helps, does that still mean that it's my depression causing the pain?Yes depression sometimes causes the body to shutdown the production of endorphins and you will than have aches and pains. I've read your posts and know you have used parnate. My p-doc has used parnate in addition to my lamictal when I've had flareups of my sciatica. So the combo of parnate added to my lamictal brought really good pain relief. OH my yes and he added suboxone to that mix and that worked great. Oh yes that will bring a smile to your face! Once the depression was under control he just went with lamictal. I do miss my little combo! Should I have old him my depression was gone? lol...teh he..oh well..I did feel really good while that lasted and good pain relief. I promise you that
Posted by floatingbridge on October 30, 2010, at 15:05:47
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on October 30, 2010, at 8:33:35
Hi Maxime,
I thought it OA as a possibility because I have just been diagnosised with it. It's pretty common. Guess depression doesn't stop aging :(
It was my pt for carpal tunnel who saw a 'look' to my hand--the finger tip joints--that said OA. She is 56 and also told me to have a bone scan by 50 so bone loss can be monitored. I didn't know.
So the rheumy looked at my hands and confirmed. Felt his conclusion was depression as main problem; no other information was given.
My gp will order a bone scan.
I think aches and pains warrant checking out and being treated, if only palliatively. My depression makes my OA pain more intense. Being the case doesn't mean I don't have some pain treatment.
Best sweetie.
Posted by SLS on October 30, 2010, at 15:47:07
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » SLS, posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 9:27:10
> Regarding Dr. Stahl and drug companies, click on this link:
>
> http://www.cspinet.org/cgi-bin/integrity.cgi
>
> That is not cherry picked as those are cold hard facts.Why do you single out Stephen Stahl? Does he participate in the system any differently than most other researchers? If you don't like the system, that's one thing. If you would like to accuse Stephen Stahl of a breach of ethics, I would like for you to provide the details of that "cold hard fact". After all, the blogger forgot to do this.
Try looking up a few other doctors in your database. Do you see anything different between the listing for Stahl and the other names working in clinical psychopharmacology?
The first name I entered, Frederick Goodwin, came up with quite a few affiliations. Perhaps you could prove an association between Goodwin and a breach of ethics. He has certainly been around long enough to have been "caught" being naughty. He hasn't been. So, in what ways has Goodwin been singularly naughty? After all, he does appear in your database. That database is a listing of facts. It is not a determination of culpability of illegal or unethical behavior.
If psychiatric researchers are to refuse funding for their work, perhaps we should increase the funding of the NIH by a factor of 100 to offset the loss.
If you don't like the system, perhaps you could devise an alternative. How would you fund research? Now, that would be a worthy issue to spend your energies on. Capitalism isn't always idyllic.
Perhaps you can present here for us an act that is a specific breach of ethics that you feel Stahl is guilty of that Goodwin and the other researchers are not. What research conclusions of Stahl do you feel have been influenced by money?
Perhaps you can elucidate for us how Stahl's liking of lurasidone is tantamount to unethical. Quite simply, as the blog suggests, "Lurasidone is simply another antipsychoticno more, no less"
Is it unethical for Stahl to like lurasidone? After all, he is entitled to his professional opinions.
Try Andrew Nierenberg in the database. Then try looking him up in Google. How would you go about impugning his reputation as you did with Stahl? Your presentation of that database proves nothing more than the state of the system. It is not a commentary on the quality and validity of the scientific and clinical work produced by it.
The blog you presented is nothing more than intimations rather than a detailing of facts. I found the tone of piece to be melodramatic and self-serving as an editorial. The author would rather spend his time and energies attempting to perform performing character assasination. Unfortunately, he tries to do this without a weapon. He says that he likes Stahl's transparency. Fortunately, so too is the unsubstantiated agenda of the blogger.
I believe that it would be instructive for you to answer at least some of the questions I posed to you in the passages above.
By the way, pain is often a symptom of affective disorders. It most often disappears as the depression remits. Now, where were we?
- Scott
Posted by lamictal on October 30, 2010, at 18:04:30
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » SLS, posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 9:27:10
> <<Yes. I'm sure that Dr. Stahl, being a trained medical doctor, embraces the idea that, invariably, all pain is caused by depression. NOT.>>
>
> Just because someone is a trained medical doctor doesn't mean they don't have biases. This is true of non psychiatrists also.
>
> << I invite you to read the literature you refer to. The word "depression" appears nowhere in the text. It is unfortunate that the mentally ill should not be treated seriously when they have physical complaints. This might be the result of depressed patients presenting with pain but without any other organic condition to be found. Instead of recognizing that pain could be a symptom of depression, they are sent home without a diagnosis and without treatment. I believe this is precisely what Dr. Stahl would like to see remedied. That's all.>>
>
> Fair point.
>
> Regarding Dr. Stahl and drug companies, click on this link:
>
> http://www.cspinet.org/cgi-bin/integrity.cgi
>
> That is not cherry picked as those are cold hard facts.
>
> He is connected to several drugs companies financially.
>
> No, that doesn't mean that someone is necessarily dishonest but I think it is fair to point out when evaluating someone's work if they have a financial conflict.
>
> That is no different from the folks on this board who rightfully pointed out that one of the critics of the Star D study also had a financial conflict. Just like their remarks weren't disparaging, either are mine.
>
> 49er
>
>I'm new here but your stance has me kind of confused. I can't take an anti med stance because lamictal gave me back my life. But why the anti drug agenda. Did they not work for you or you had bad sides? Well they worked for me. But that only means they work for some and not for others with all shades of grey inbetween.
But I have to agree with Scott on this one. We live in system called capatalism. People hire us to do a job and we get paid. That doesn't mean I'm dishonest. I keep seeing this conclusion that if one participates on this system that one's work is flawed. So if his work came from a socialist system the work is pure.
I must be missing something. People don't like the system therefore if you participate in it your work is dishonest. NOT true at all. You just can't make that leap.
The guy that wrote the blog participates in the system maybe someone hired him to gun down Stahl.
It's a blog and not a solid scientific study. You need a judge and jury to convict this man of fraud. That's also the system. You just can't say the man wrote a conclusion and got paid for it and therefore the conclusion is invalid. That is libel is it not? Maybe he just doesn't like the man. Maybe he is jealous. Who knows but he's just one man and not judge and jury.
It seems to me from being here that there are some with agendas. That tends to cloud ones judgement because once one takes a particular inflexible stance you have to keep seeing everything that will support that stance and filter out what doesn't support that stance.
The problem with that emotion is one ends up reject what doesn't support that stance. People need to take a step back and ask are their viewpoints so emotionally driven they will no longer allow their minds to be open to some facts that may in well counter what they say is the absolute truth?? One has to think about that and see if that is influencing many of their conslusions.
Just something to dwell on.
Posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 18:27:48
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » 49er, posted by SLS on October 30, 2010, at 15:47:07
> > Regarding Dr. Stahl and drug companies, click on this link:
> >
> > http://www.cspinet.org/cgi-bin/integrity.cgi
> >
> > That is not cherry picked as those are cold hard facts.
>
> Why do you single out Stephen Stahl? Does he participate in the system any differently than most other researchers? If you don't like the system, that's one thing. If you would like to accuse Stephen Stahl of a breach of ethics, I would like for you to provide the details of that "cold hard fact". After all, the blogger forgot to do this.
>
> Try looking up a few other doctors in your database. Do you see anything different between the listing for Stahl and the other names working in clinical psychopharmacology?
>
> The first name I entered, Frederick Goodwin, came up with quite a few affiliations. Perhaps you could prove an association between Goodwin and a breach of ethics. He has certainly been around long enough to have been "caught" being naughty. He hasn't been. So, in what ways has Goodwin been singularly naughty? After all, he does appear in your database. That database is a listing of facts. It is not a determination of culpability of illegal or unethical behavior.
>
> If psychiatric researchers are to refuse funding for their work, perhaps we should increase the funding of the NIH by a factor of 100 to offset the loss.
>
> If you don't like the system, perhaps you could devise an alternative. How would you fund research? Now, that would be a worthy issue to spend your energies on. Capitalism isn't always idyllic.
>
> Perhaps you can present here for us an act that is a specific breach of ethics that you feel Stahl is guilty of that Goodwin and the other researchers are not. What research conclusions of Stahl do you feel have been influenced by money?
>
> Perhaps you can elucidate for us how Stahl's liking of lurasidone is tantamount to unethical. Quite simply, as the blog suggests, "Lurasidone is simply another antipsychoticno more, no less"
>
> Is it unethical for Stahl to like lurasidone? After all, he is entitled to his professional opinions.
>
> Try Andrew Nierenberg in the database. Then try looking him up in Google. How would you go about impugning his reputation as you did with Stahl? Your presentation of that database proves nothing more than the state of the system. It is not a commentary on the quality and validity of the scientific and clinical work produced by it.
>
> The blog you presented is nothing more than intimations rather than a detailing of facts. I found the tone of piece to be melodramatic and self-serving as an editorial. The author would rather spend his time and energies attempting to perform performing character assasination. Unfortunately, he tries to do this without a weapon. He says that he likes Stahl's transparency. Fortunately, so too is the unsubstantiated agenda of the blogger.
>
> I believe that it would be instructive for you to answer at least some of the questions I posed to you in the passages above.
>
> By the way, pain is often a symptom of affective disorders. It most often disappears as the depression remits. Now, where were we?
>
>
> - Scott
>
Scott,Maxime, my apologies for temporarily going off topic but I will get back on at the end of this post.
Scott, you're totally missing my point.
Whether it is a psychiatric researcher or an alternative heatlh practitioner, when someone has the appearance of conflict when they are making a claim, that needs to be fully disclosed. I didn't say anywhere in my post that it implied wrong doing and to infer otherwise is simply unfair.
"By the way, pain is often a symptom of affective disorders. It most often disappears as the depression remits. Now, where were we?""
I don't disagree but it sounds like Maxime is having pain that is more than just depression. Obviously, I am not a doctor but I really feel she needs to get this checked out.
49er
Posted by Phillipa on October 30, 2010, at 20:04:10
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » SLS, posted by 49er on October 30, 2010, at 18:27:48
It is said that osteoporsis is a silent disease I disagree with as I do have pain from it as well as OA. Seeing that you have mentioned an eating disorder I'd get a bone scan also. Phillipa mine was estremly troubling.
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 30, 2010, at 20:13:16
In reply to Depression HURTS, posted by maxime on October 29, 2010, at 21:39:53
Could you have some low-stage osteo-arthritis in your hips? I developed some in my knees and found it hurt when I first got out of a car or something, then got better. I wasn't until I fell and tore my menicus that I went to an orthopedist who told me I have stage 2 arthritis.
Posted by maxime on October 30, 2010, at 22:26:00
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » Maxime, posted by floatingbridge on October 30, 2010, at 15:05:47
> Hi Maxime,
>
> I thought it OA as a possibility because I have just been diagnosised with it. It's pretty common. Guess depression doesn't stop aging :(
>
> It was my pt for carpal tunnel who saw a 'look' to my hand--the finger tip joints--that said OA. She is 56 and also told me to have a bone scan by 50 so bone loss can be monitored. I didn't know.
>
> So the rheumy looked at my hands and confirmed. Felt his conclusion was depression as main problem; no other information was given.
>
> My gp will order a bone scan.
>
> I think aches and pains warrant checking out and being treated, if only palliatively. My depression makes my OA pain more intense. Being the case doesn't mean I don't have some pain treatment.
>
> Best sweetie.Thanks for you post. I feel so stupid because I can't figure out what OA stands for except Overeaters Anonymous which I don't think you are talking about! What does OA mean?
I am really tired right now.
Posted by maxime on October 30, 2010, at 22:29:35
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » floatingbridge, posted by maxime on October 30, 2010, at 22:26:00
Tee-hee. I think I got it - osteo-arthritis. Sorry for my stupidity.
Posted by 49er on October 31, 2010, at 9:20:02
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » 49er, posted by lamictal on October 30, 2010, at 18:04:30
Lamictal,
As to whether I am anti meds, I guess you missed a post in which I described how someone who suffered horrific withdrawal symptoms from insomnia felt a psychiatrist was life saving with very low dose medication. I highly praised this professional and wish I had access to someone like that in my area.
Unless you have read alot of posts by someone, I would caution you to make premature judgments.
Again, my apologies to Maxime for this off topic response but I saw in another thread where you warned people like me to stay away. So I thought you needed to know that your perception wasn't totally accurate.
I wish you well.
49er
Posted by 49er on October 31, 2010, at 9:22:24
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » maxime, posted by maxime on October 30, 2010, at 22:29:35
> Tee-hee. I think I got it - osteo-arthritis. Sorry for my stupidity.
Uh, you are definitely not stupid. Get that word out of your vocabulary.
49er
Posted by lamictal on October 31, 2010, at 11:11:51
In reply to Depression Hurts » lamictal, posted by 49er on October 31, 2010, at 9:20:02
> Lamictal,
>
> As to whether I am anti meds, I guess you missed a post in which I described how someone who suffered horrific withdrawal symptoms from insomnia felt a psychiatrist was life saving with very low dose medication. I highly praised this professional and wish I had access to someone like that in my area.
>
> Unless you have read alot of posts by someone, I would caution you to make premature judgments.
>
> Again, my apologies to Maxime for this off topic response but I saw in another thread where you warned people like me to stay away. So I thought you needed to know that your perception wasn't totally accurate.
>
> I wish you well.
>
> 49erYes I may not have been totally accurate in my assesment of your perceptions. and yes my apoligies to Maxime. Possibly there needs to be another thread in babble. There seems to be an attempt to draw a logical extrapolation of pscyhiatry that is in fact is not logical. What I am seeing from some:
1. We live in a system called capitalism that is profit driven. Yes that is true
2. P-docs take part in that system and there are profit driven. Partly true. Yes I'm sure that they enjoy making a good living and having a good life style. But that may not be their only driving force.
3. P-docs are totally profit driven. Not true.4. The pharmacuetical industry is profit driven and all their products are the products of greed. Partly true. That has been the case in isolated instances. But that does not mean all are lairs and thieves. They are often profit driven to create good and reputable products.
One can not assume that because one takes part in a capitalist system that all are liars and thieves. Yes unforunately in some cases but in many cases not true and good pruducts by hard working scientists who take pride in their work.
Wanting to make a lot of money is not a crime and does not mean you are a liar and a crook.
Some here do not like the capilist system and are jumping to the conclusion that therefore those who enjoy the fruits of it are not good people. Everyone is entitled to their day in court before being labeled a bad person.
this is not just a observation I have made of some here and is a very disturbing trend that a forum for med discussion has become a forum for bashing the system. Is this the proper forum for that?
Again my apoligies to Maxime.
Please just don't make assumptions about a barrel that may have some bad apples that the entire barrel is rotten.
Good luck to you also 49er. We are all striving for good health. perhaps the alt forum is a better place for you. An observation is that the med people don't hang out in the alt forum claiming it is bogus. Personally I wouldn't go to a cigar lovers forum if i were not a smoker to harangue them on the evils of tobacco. Just an observation and nothing more.
Posted by 49er on October 31, 2010, at 11:53:04
In reply to Re: Depression Hurts » 49er, posted by lamictal on October 31, 2010, at 11:11:51
Ok, I am really being bad in responding and continuing an off topic thread but you made a made a few points I wanted to respond to.
I participate in the meds forum in case there are posts from people who have tapererd who might benefit from my experience.
Also, my experience can benefit people who want to stay on meds but might benefit from a lower than normal dose.
By the way, Maxime said I gave her hope that depression can be overcome. If I had stayed in the alternative thread as you suggested, she wouldn't have seen my posts.
Hey, it is boring to be on forums where everybody agrees with each other. But I have never crusaded against meds like another poster you have seen on these boards.
I do draw my limits as I would never visit political forums where their views would be intolerable. But I find on this forum, there is enough common ground believe it or not, that I am not a total misfit.
Regarding the alt forum, why is this an either or situation? That life saving psychiatrist I talked about also believed in some supplements (not all).
But you are right to be leery as I feel many alternative health folks are preying on people's dissatisfaction with psychiatry and making bogus claims.
Sorry I wasn't clear about the financial conflict issue. People have every right to earn as much as possible.
But when you don't disclose a conflict that may affect your conclusions, I do have a problem with that. Just so you know I am not picking on psychiatry, I think this applies to all types of professionals, including alternative folks. By the way, they have plenty of conflicts in selling supplements that they make recommendations on.
And you're right, just because you have a potential conflict doesn't mean there is wrongdoing. Scott posted a link to another article on treating pain with antidepressants in which the financial conflict was disclosed. It looked like in reading the article that the conclusions were reasonable.
That is it for now.
49er
PS - By the way, I never thought my former P-doc was profit driven even when he felt I should be on meds for life when I totally disagreed with. I just don't think that someone who has a full practice would have that motive. And he charged the lowest rates in my area,
> > Lamictal,
> >
> > As to whether I am anti meds, I guess you missed a post in which I described how someone who suffered horrific withdrawal symptoms from insomnia felt a psychiatrist was life saving with very low dose medication. I highly praised this professional and wish I had access to someone like that in my area.
> >
> > Unless you have read alot of posts by someone, I would caution you to make premature judgments.
> >
> > Again, my apologies to Maxime for this off topic response but I saw in another thread where you warned people like me to stay away. So I thought you needed to know that your perception wasn't totally accurate.
> >
> > I wish you well.
> >
> > 49er
>
> Yes I may not have been totally accurate in my assesment of your perceptions. and yes my apoligies to Maxime. Possibly there needs to be another thread in babble. There seems to be an attempt to draw a logical extrapolation of pscyhiatry that is in fact is not logical. What I am seeing from some:
>
> 1. We live in a system called capitalism that is profit driven. Yes that is true
> 2. P-docs take part in that system and there are profit driven. Partly true. Yes I'm sure that they enjoy making a good living and having a good life style. But that may not be their only driving force.
> 3. P-docs are totally profit driven. Not true.
>
> 4. The pharmacuetical industry is profit driven and all their products are the products of greed. Partly true. That has been the case in isolated instances. But that does not mean all are lairs and thieves. They are often profit driven to create good and reputable products.
>
> One can not assume that because one takes part in a capitalist system that all are liars and thieves. Yes unforunately in some cases but in many cases not true and good pruducts by hard working scientists who take pride in their work.
>
> Wanting to make a lot of money is not a crime and does not mean you are a liar and a crook.
>
> Some here do not like the capilist system and are jumping to the conclusion that therefore those who enjoy the fruits of it are not good people. Everyone is entitled to their day in court before being labeled a bad person.
>
> this is not just a observation I have made of some here and is a very disturbing trend that a forum for med discussion has become a forum for bashing the system. Is this the proper forum for that?
>
> Again my apoligies to Maxime.
>
> Please just don't make assumptions about a barrel that may have some bad apples that the entire barrel is rotten.
>
> Good luck to you also 49er. We are all striving for good health. perhaps the alt forum is a better place for you. An observation is that the med people don't hang out in the alt forum claiming it is bogus. Personally I wouldn't go to a cigar lovers forum if i were not a smoker to harangue them on the evils of tobacco. Just an observation and nothing more.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 31, 2010, at 14:07:42
In reply to Re: Depression HURTS » floatingbridge, posted by maxime on October 30, 2010, at 22:26:00
OA is osteoarthritis. Sorry.
Posted by maxime on October 31, 2010, at 14:41:08
In reply to Re: tylenol is a cannabanoid reuptake inhibitor, posted by linkadge on October 30, 2010, at 7:30:53
> I wouldn't be suprised if some depressions were not entirely based on a endocannabanoid deficiancy.
>
> Insomnia, anxiety, depression, anorexia, low pain threshold, mood lability, are all associated with the cannabanoid system.
>
> Interestingly too, activating the cannabanoid system apparently reduces the activity of sodium and calcium channels. Since bipolar treatments ususally involve modulation of these ion channels, I do give credit to those who claim MJ cais a mood stabilizer for them.
>
>
> LinkadgeThis is really insteresting. What is MJ cais?
I am going to look into what you wrote about cannabanoid system.
Posted by lamictal on October 31, 2010, at 16:52:26
In reply to Re: Depression Hurts » lamictal, posted by 49er on October 31, 2010, at 11:53:04
> Ok, I am really being bad in responding and continuing an off topic thread but you made a made a few points I wanted to respond to.
>
> I participate in the meds forum in case there are posts from people who have tapererd who might benefit from my experience.
>
> Also, my experience can benefit people who want to stay on meds but might benefit from a lower than normal dose.
>
> By the way, Maxime said I gave her hope that depression can be overcome. If I had stayed in the alternative thread as you suggested, she wouldn't have seen my posts.
>
> Hey, it is boring to be on forums where everybody agrees with each other. But I have never crusaded against meds like another poster you have seen on these boards.
>
> I do draw my limits as I would never visit political forums where their views would be intolerable. But I find on this forum, there is enough common ground believe it or not, that I am not a total misfit.
>
> Regarding the alt forum, why is this an either or situation? That life saving psychiatrist I talked about also believed in some supplements (not all).
>
> But you are right to be leery as I feel many alternative health folks are preying on people's dissatisfaction with psychiatry and making bogus claims.
>
> Sorry I wasn't clear about the financial conflict issue. People have every right to earn as much as possible.
>
> But when you don't disclose a conflict that may affect your conclusions, I do have a problem with that. Just so you know I am not picking on psychiatry, I think this applies to all types of professionals, including alternative folks. By the way, they have plenty of conflicts in selling supplements that they make recommendations on.
>
> And you're right, just because you have a potential conflict doesn't mean there is wrongdoing. Scott posted a link to another article on treating pain with antidepressants in which the financial conflict was disclosed. It looked like in reading the article that the conclusions were reasonable.
>
> That is it for now.
>
> 49er
>
> PS - By the way, I never thought my former P-doc was profit driven even when he felt I should be on meds for life when I totally disagreed with. I just don't think that someone who has a full practice would have that motive. And he charged the lowest rates in my area,
>
>
> > > Lamictal,
> > >
> > > As to whether I am anti meds, I guess you missed a post in which I described how someone who suffered horrific withdrawal symptoms from insomnia felt a psychiatrist was life saving with very low dose medication. I highly praised this professional and wish I had access to someone like that in my area.
> > >
> > > Unless you have read alot of posts by someone, I would caution you to make premature judgments.
> > >
> > > Again, my apologies to Maxime for this off topic response but I saw in another thread where you warned people like me to stay away. So I thought you needed to know that your perception wasn't totally accurate.
> > >
> > > I wish you well.
> > >
> > > 49er
> >
> > Yes I may not have been totally accurate in my assesment of your perceptions. and yes my apoligies to Maxime. Possibly there needs to be another thread in babble. There seems to be an attempt to draw a logical extrapolation of pscyhiatry that is in fact is not logical. What I am seeing from some:
> >
> > 1. We live in a system called capitalism that is profit driven. Yes that is true
> > 2. P-docs take part in that system and there are profit driven. Partly true. Yes I'm sure that they enjoy making a good living and having a good life style. But that may not be their only driving force.
> > 3. P-docs are totally profit driven. Not true.
> >
> > 4. The pharmacuetical industry is profit driven and all their products are the products of greed. Partly true. That has been the case in isolated instances. But that does not mean all are lairs and thieves. They are often profit driven to create good and reputable products.
> >
> > One can not assume that because one takes part in a capitalist system that all are liars and thieves. Yes unforunately in some cases but in many cases not true and good pruducts by hard working scientists who take pride in their work.
> >
> > Wanting to make a lot of money is not a crime and does not mean you are a liar and a crook.
> >
> > Some here do not like the capilist system and are jumping to the conclusion that therefore those who enjoy the fruits of it are not good people. Everyone is entitled to their day in court before being labeled a bad person.
> >
> > this is not just a observation I have made of some here and is a very disturbing trend that a forum for med discussion has become a forum for bashing the system. Is this the proper forum for that?
> >
> > Again my apoligies to Maxime.
> >
> > Please just don't make assumptions about a barrel that may have some bad apples that the entire barrel is rotten.
> >
> > Good luck to you also 49er. We are all striving for good health. perhaps the alt forum is a better place for you. An observation is that the med people don't hang out in the alt forum claiming it is bogus. Personally I wouldn't go to a cigar lovers forum if i were not a smoker to harangue them on the evils of tobacco. Just an observation and nothing more.
>
>Amen to your post. Very good and you cleared up your involvement in alt med. I spent a fortune as a young woman on supplements and hiked my way up to Mt Everest to get healthy. Just didn't get me to where I wanted to go. That was almost 40 years. After the age of 40 started with the meds and got more results. There's no right or wrong way to go. Just what works. Still have a boatload of supplements that I take every night. I swear by fish oil. Multi vit, vit e, vit c, nac, olive oil, green juice, red juice, sam-e,p-5-p, tri boron plus, vit d3. Also lamictal and klonopin at night. Just throw the kitchen sink at my bi polar mind and anxiety. Hope that something will work. don't know what works and what doesn't.
So basically really try anything in the world. That's why I get peeved when some bash something and swear by something.No right and no wrong. No miracle cures and no evil. People have to get off their pedistals and open their minds. No anti this and prothis.
Open your minds to everything and stop the preaching. Nobody knows what the silver bullet is. so I use the shotgun approach. I listen to everything and I'm willing to try anything once wether alt med or conventional med.
That's worked the best for me. I have no philosophy any more. Load up that shotgun and fire away!!
Posted by lamictal on October 31, 2010, at 17:03:57
In reply to Re: Depression Hurts » lamictal, posted by 49er on October 31, 2010, at 11:53:04
> Ok, I am really being bad in responding and continuing an off topic thread but you made a made a few points I wanted to respond to.
>
> I participate in the meds forum in case there are posts from people who have tapererd who might benefit from my experience.
>
> Also, my experience can benefit people who want to stay on meds but might benefit from a lower than normal dose.
>
> By the way, Maxime said I gave her hope that depression can be overcome. If I had stayed in the alternative thread as you suggested, she wouldn't have seen my posts.
>
> Hey, it is boring to be on forums where everybody agrees with each other. But I have never crusaded against meds like another poster you have seen on these boards.
>
> I do draw my limits as I would never visit political forums where their views would be intolerable. But I find on this forum, there is enough common ground believe it or not, that I am not a total misfit.
>
> Regarding the alt forum, why is this an either or situation? That life saving psychiatrist I talked about also believed in some supplements (not all).
>
> But you are right to be leery as I feel many alternative health folks are preying on people's dissatisfaction with psychiatry and making bogus claims.
>
> Sorry I wasn't clear about the financial conflict issue. People have every right to earn as much as possible.
>
> But when you don't disclose a conflict that may affect your conclusions, I do have a problem with that. Just so you know I am not picking on psychiatry, I think this applies to all types of professionals, including alternative folks. By the way, they have plenty of conflicts in selling supplements that they make recommendations on.
>
> And you're right, just because you have a potential conflict doesn't mean there is wrongdoing. Scott posted a link to another article on treating pain with antidepressants in which the financial conflict was disclosed. It looked like in reading the article that the conclusions were reasonable.
>
> That is it for now.
>
> 49er
>
> PS - By the way, I never thought my former P-doc was profit driven even when he felt I should be on meds for life when I totally disagreed with. I just don't think that someone who has a full practice would have that motive. And he charged the lowest rates in my area,
>
>
> > > Lamictal,
> > >
> > > As to whether I am anti meds, I guess you missed a post in which I described how someone who suffered horrific withdrawal symptoms from insomnia felt a psychiatrist was life saving with very low dose medication. I highly praised this professional and wish I had access to someone like that in my area.
> > >
> > > Unless you have read alot of posts by someone, I would caution you to make premature judgments.
> > >
> > > Again, my apologies to Maxime for this off topic response but I saw in another thread where you warned people like me to stay away. So I thought you needed to know that your perception wasn't totally accurate.
> > >
> > > I wish you well.
> > >
> > > 49er
> >
> > Yes I may not have been totally accurate in my assesment of your perceptions. and yes my apoligies to Maxime. Possibly there needs to be another thread in babble. There seems to be an attempt to draw a logical extrapolation of pscyhiatry that is in fact is not logical. What I am seeing from some:
> >
> > 1. We live in a system called capitalism that is profit driven. Yes that is true
> > 2. P-docs take part in that system and there are profit driven. Partly true. Yes I'm sure that they enjoy making a good living and having a good life style. But that may not be their only driving force.
> > 3. P-docs are totally profit driven. Not true.
> >
> > 4. The pharmacuetical industry is profit driven and all their products are the products of greed. Partly true. That has been the case in isolated instances. But that does not mean all are lairs and thieves. They are often profit driven to create good and reputable products.
> >
> > One can not assume that because one takes part in a capitalist system that all are liars and thieves. Yes unforunately in some cases but in many cases not true and good pruducts by hard working scientists who take pride in their work.
> >
> > Wanting to make a lot of money is not a crime and does not mean you are a liar and a crook.
> >
> > Some here do not like the capilist system and are jumping to the conclusion that therefore those who enjoy the fruits of it are not good people. Everyone is entitled to their day in court before being labeled a bad person.
> >
> > this is not just a observation I have made of some here and is a very disturbing trend that a forum for med discussion has become a forum for bashing the system. Is this the proper forum for that?
> >
> > Again my apoligies to Maxime.
> >
> > Please just don't make assumptions about a barrel that may have some bad apples that the entire barrel is rotten.
> >
> > Good luck to you also 49er. We are all striving for good health. perhaps the alt forum is a better place for you. An observation is that the med people don't hang out in the alt forum claiming it is bogus. Personally I wouldn't go to a cigar lovers forum if i were not a smoker to harangue them on the evils of tobacco. Just an observation and nothing more.
>
>Good post and well said. After 40 years of being an alt med guru I still pile up the vitamins, minerals, fish oil and olive oil. I've hiked my way to Mt Everest and haven't got there. I take lamictal and 1 mg of klonopin at night. For me there's no set answer for me anymore. Just take the shotgun approach and fire away. It's gotten me some results. Don't know what works and what doesn't. But somewhere in that pile of stuff something is working. Depression and bipolar is better and anxiety under control. So that's my approach. No silver bullet for me but as said fire the remington 12 gauge double barrel shotgun.lol
Posted by maxime on November 2, 2010, at 20:58:26
In reply to Re: Depression Hurts, posted by lamictal on October 31, 2010, at 17:03:57
Ouch, ouch and ouch. Today I was in so much pain that some of students asked me what was wrong. I said "why?" and they said "because you are walking around like an old lady". I told them I felt like one and I that I just slept the wrong way. The Tylenol helped a bit but not as much as it usually dose.
Posted by maxime on November 4, 2010, at 21:08:47
In reply to Re: Depression Hurts, posted by maxime on November 2, 2010, at 19:58:26
Had to use more Tylenol than usual today. Now it is wearing off and I feel pretty bad. I hope I can fall asleep with the aches and pains.
I think I need a hug.
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