![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Indie on July 24, 2004, at 10:13:53
I am wondering about the differences between a few supplements.
1) Is there a difference between L-Phenylalanine and DL-Phenylalanine? If so, what is it?
2) What is the difference between taking Glutamic Acid and Glutamine?
3) What is the difference between taking L-tryptophan and 5--HTP?
Any info would be really helpful.
Thanks,
Indie
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2004, at 11:21:14
In reply to Questions about Phenylalanine and more., posted by Indie on July 24, 2004, at 10:13:53
> I am wondering about the differences between a few supplements.
You've come to the right place.
> 1) Is there a difference between L-Phenylalanine and DL-Phenylalanine? If so, what is it?For many molecules with biological activity, there are different ways they can be put together, and still be the same thing. The D- and L- (also shown as R-/S- or +/-) designations refer to a pair of otherwise identical molecules, which differ in being mirror images of each other, like a pair of gloves are mirror images of each other. And like a pair of gloves, the individual molecules are not absolutely interchangeable. You can't put a right hand in a left glove, even though it still retains all the properties of gloves in general.
Each individual form of the matched molecules is called an enantiomer. There's the D- enantiomer, and the L-enantiomer. Mother Nature has, by an evolutionary flip of the coin, stuck to using L- enantiomers of the amino acids, under nearly all circumstances. So, L-phenylalanine is the "natural" enantiomer, and is almost entirely the form you get in food.
When you see an amino acid labeled as DL, it means there's a roughly 50% mix of both enantiomers. That's called a racemic mixture, and it usually means that the substance was man-made. Unlike Mother Nature, which has enzymes structured to favour L-aminos, chemists and their reaction vessels don't have control over how the last bits go together. Random chance leads to there being about 50% of both forms.
Some D-aminos are toxic. They may contribute to the toxicity of some bacterial by-products. Most are innocuous, or give opportunities not often obtained from food. (The aminos in beer are roughly 10% D-enantiomers, so maybe there's something special about beer, after all.) With respect to D-phenylalanine, it promotes formation of a feel-good chemical called PEA, and also blocks the breakdown of other feel-good chemicals. It helps in pain control, for example.
> 2) What is the difference between taking Glutamic Acid and Glutamine?Glutamine is glutamic acid with an extra amine functional group. I bet that didn't mean much to you, but they are interchangeable by enzymatic transformation, and they have opposite effects, one to the other. (The very same thing applies to the two forms of vitamin B3, with nicotinic acid and nicotinamide having diametrically opposite effects at some receptors).
Simply put, glutamic acid is excitatory, whereas glutamine is inhibitory, but sometimes the glutamic acid excites an inhibitory process (net inhibitory effect), and sometimes the glutamine inhibits an inhibitory process (net excitatory effect), so the outcomes can seem paradoxical. Like amphetamine to treat hyperactivity. It works, but it doesn't seem logical, on its face.
MSG is the sodium salt of glutamic acid.
> 3) What is the difference between taking L-tryptophan and 5--HTP?
The synthesis of serotonin from tryptophan goes in steps. The first step is to change tryptophan into 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP). 5-HTP is called an intermediate. The next conversion is 5-HTP to 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT), which is also known as serotonin. (If you ever see in medical literature references like "the 5-HT1a receptor", they're talking about family 1 type a serotonin receptors.)
The enzyme that converts tryptophan to 5-HTP is only found in tissues which use serotonin. That first step conversion is called the rate-limiting step, because the rate of synthesis is slower and more controlled than the second step. Your body controls the amount of total serotonin by regulating this step (when everything is working as it should). The enzyme that converts 5-HTP to serotonin is found everywhere, all over the body, even in tissues that are not normally exposed to (much) serotonin. If you take oral 5-HTP, your whole system is, in essence, exposed to serotonin, in a completely unregulated way....not just the brain. If you take tryptophan, your body's regulatory system of enzymes is not by-passed. More raw materials for the enzyme (tryptophan) generally translates into more product (5-HTP), but only in the tissues which are designed for serotonin function (e.g. the brain). The step that converts 5-HTP to serotonin is virtually instantaneous (1/1,000,000,000 of a second). I think it's better, in general, to help your body do what it's designed to do (process tryptophan) than to consume an intermediate (5-HTP) that has unnatural effects.
> Any info would be really helpful.
>
> Thanks,
> IndieMore questions welcomed.
Lar
Posted by Indie on July 24, 2004, at 12:46:59
In reply to Re: Questions about Phenylalanine and more. » Indie, posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2004, at 11:21:14
WOW...That's alot of information. Are you a bio-chemist or something or have you just done alot of research on the matter??
You say more questions welcome...I've got a million!! I am bi-polar II and know just enough about all of it to be a danger to myself :-) Basically I am trying to get a grasp on the systems that control mood to understand better what systems may be out of whack so that I can make some educated guesses on fixing them.
If you have any suggestions and info on that front I am ready to hear as much info as you care to give. As additional info, my manias are very easy to control, lamictal pretty much does the job. I find it a bit confusing that half of my manias are euphoric and half miserabely dysphoric. My depressions are extrordinarally difficult to control. ADs have worked in the past as did ECT once but now nothing on that front seems to be working..,
until this week. At the suggestion of my doc, I started taking SAMe along with an anti-homocysteine and it seems to be giving me a bit of relief. I started with 200 mg 2X/day and after three days moved to 400 mg 2X/day. The only problem is that my anxiety seems to be getting worse.
Now I know that SAMe is a methyl donor that allows the tryptophan-5HTP-5HT process and the tyrosine-dopamine-norepinephrine process to work. I also know that people advise Bipolars not to take the stuff as it may cause mania, however my doc and pharmacist both said that this really wasn't true.
I guess that all of this babbling is wondering why SAMe might relieve depression but increase anxiety.
As for the phenylalanine, where does it fit into the system? I am going to add supplements very slowly, but would it make any sense to take this supplement with SAMe?
The reason that I am wondering about glutamine is because of an experience that my doctor had many moons ago. He was working on a study at the University of Texas doing blood tests for nutritional status. Just for kicks he decided to get himself tested. After a few weeks his motivation increased dramatically. Over several months he lost over 30 lbs without even thinking about it. They did a mini study on the issue and the results were duplicated in patients with a family history of depression and diabetes.
I have two reasons for interest in this. The first is because I have motivation problems even when I am symptom free. The second is that my sister is clinically obese. She eats a pretty good diet and runs frequently but still gains weight.
>
> Simply put, glutamic acid is excitatory, whereas glutamine is inhibitory,but sometimes the glutamic acid excites an inhibitory process (net inhibitory effect), and sometimes the glutamine inhibits an inhibitory process (net excitatory effect), so the outcomes can seem paradoxical. Like amphetamine to treat hyperactivity. It works, but it doesn't seem logical, on its face.In my limited understanding, it seems to me that this study indicates the paradoxical effect of Glutamine inhibiting an inhibitory process. Is this a good assumption? Again, would it make sense to take this supplement with SAMe? My doc was taking around 1.5 grams/day "if his memory serves him correctly."
As for tryptophan/5HTP, as you seem to think that tryptophan is the best choice between these two...same question. Would it make sense to take it with SAMe?
Do you have any insight or suggestions about the anxiety issue?? I do not want to quit the SAMe as it seems to be having a positive effect on depression but the anxiety gets so bad sometimes that I feel like I am suffocating.
Thanks in advancee for any info.
P.S. I have another question off the topic but I will start a new thread for that.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 8:43:22
In reply to Re: Questions about Phenylalanine and more. » Larry Hoover, posted by Indie on July 24, 2004, at 12:46:59
> WOW...That's alot of information. Are you a bio-chemist or something
environmental toxicologist
> or have you just done alot of research on the matter??
That too.
> You say more questions welcome...I've got a million!!
Great!
> I am bi-polar II and know just enough about all of it to be a danger to myself :-)
<spock eyebrow>
> Basically I am trying to get a grasp on the systems that control mood to understand better what systems may be out of whack so that I can make some educated guesses on fixing them.
Good base assumption.
> If you have any suggestions and info on that front I am ready to hear as much info as you care to give.
Far better, I think, to ask about specific symptoms or symptom clusters. There's a "where to start" thread, above us, that gets into the basics.
> As additional info, my manias are very easy to control, lamictal pretty much does the job. I find it a bit confusing that half of my manias are euphoric and half miserabely dysphoric.
My instant intuition is that one is A, the other is A and B. If you could control factor B, you'd be addressing the dysphoric disturbance more closely. That's how my brain models things. Of course, identifying factor B is harder than modelling it.
> My depressions are extrordinarally difficult to control. ADs have worked in the past as did ECT once but now nothing on that front seems to be working..,
>
> until this week. At the suggestion of my doc, I started taking SAMe along with an anti-homocysteineWhat exactly is in the anti-homocysteine?
> and it seems to be giving me a bit of relief. I started with 200 mg 2X/day and after three days moved to 400 mg 2X/day. The only problem is that my anxiety seems to be getting worse.
That happens a lot, when you substantially push the activity of a single biochemical process. You've probably so substantially increased your B-vitamin demand that your body is shifting into stress.
> Now I know that SAMe is a methyl donor that allows the tryptophan-5HTP-5HT process and the tyrosine-dopamine-norepinephrine process to work.
The more I look at that, the more I wonder where that idea came from. The only methylation process among the major neurotransmitters is the conversion of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) to epinephrine (adrenaline). Methylation *is* a key process in DNA transcription, and thus protein formation---> enzymes in general, receptors in general, etc.
> I also know that people advise Bipolars not to take the stuff as it may cause mania, however my doc and pharmacist both said that this really wasn't true.
It's not one of those things you can predict. What makes SAMe different from other interventions is that if you use it sensibly, activation can be noted, and the supplement stopped, long before frank mania ensues.
> I guess that all of this babbling is wondering why SAMe might relieve depression but increase anxiety.
See above. B-vitamin stress. You need a B-complex, and multimineral formulation. More specific recommendations come from specific symptoms. Anxiety could arise from niacin stress (niacinamide is the treatment, not niacin). Magnesium stress. Lots of things. Carpet bomb your body with general nutrients first, though.
> As for the phenylalanine, where does it fit into the system? I am going to add supplements very slowly, but would it make any sense to take this supplement with SAMe?Get the B-complex and multiminerals going first. And, I'm astounded, as I read through your post, that nobody has yet suggested fish oil to you. Or antioxidants. Take fish oil with your biggest meal(s) of the day (same with the other supps). Start at 3 grams/day, and work up, as tolerated, to 5-7 grams. You need vitamin E to protect the fish oil, 400 IU (and vitamin C, too, 1,000 mg).
> The reason that I am wondering about glutamine is because of an experience that my doctor had many moons ago. He was working on a study at the University of Texas doing blood tests for nutritional status. Just for kicks he decided to get himself tested. After a few weeks his motivation increased dramatically. Over several months he lost over 30 lbs without even thinking about it. They did a mini study on the issue and the results were duplicated in patients with a family history of depression and diabetes.Hmmm....gonna come back to that.
> I have two reasons for interest in this. The first is because I have motivation problems even when I am symptom free. The second is that my sister is clinically obese. She eats a pretty good diet and runs frequently but still gains weight.
Could be a chromium problem. Gonna come back to it.
> >
> > Simply put, glutamic acid is excitatory, whereas glutamine is inhibitory,but sometimes the glutamic acid excites an inhibitory process (net inhibitory effect), and sometimes the glutamine inhibits an inhibitory process (net excitatory effect), so the outcomes can seem paradoxical. Like amphetamine to treat hyperactivity. It works, but it doesn't seem logical, on its face.
>
> In my limited understanding, it seems to me that this study indicates the paradoxical effect of Glutamine inhibiting an inhibitory process. Is this a good assumption?I'm not fully comfortable yet with my understanding of glutamine activity. I'm gonna come back to it. No rush, ya know? You gotta pump those vitamins and minerals first, anyway.
> Again, would it make sense to take this supplement with SAMe? My doc was taking around 1.5 grams/day "if his memory serves him correctly."
The presumption that your body has the nutrients it needs to fully utilize these treatments suggested by your pdoc may not be valid.
> As for tryptophan/5HTP, as you seem to think that tryptophan is the best choice between these two...same question. Would it make sense to take it with SAMe?
Dose makes the poison. Always remember that. Start low, go slow, when you think there might be an interaction. There might be an interaction, is my gut reaction. No clear reason not to try it, just do the experiment with care.
> Do you have any insight or suggestions about the anxiety issue?? I do not want to quit the SAMe as it seems to be having a positive effect on depression but the anxiety gets so bad sometimes that I feel like I am suffocating.I hope I've covered that sufficiently already.
> Thanks in advancee for any info.You're most welcome.
> P.S. I have another question off the topic but I will start a new thread for that.I don't have much to offer there, other than anecdote. I'll ponder it a bit.
Lar
Posted by Indie on July 26, 2004, at 21:50:19
In reply to Re: Questions about Phenylalanine and more. » Indie, posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 8:43:22
Hi Lar,
Thanks for all of the information. All of the stuff that I am asking about is definately a way into the future after I get the multi-vitamin/mineral stuff going, I am just trying to get a grasp on all of this stuff for my own knowledge.
> > As additional info, my manias are very easy to control, lamictal pretty much does the job. I find it a bit confusing that half of my manias are euphoric and half miserabely dysphoric.
>
> My instant intuition is that one is A, the other is A and B. If you could control factor B, you'd be addressing the dysphoric disturbance more closely. That's how my brain models things. Of course, identifying factor B is harder than modelling it.Those A and B factors are the things that I am trying to focus in on.
> What exactly is in the anti-homocysteine?
The anti-homocysteine formula is a thing that my doctor recomment that I take with the SAM-e. It is a combination of B-12 (Methcobalamin), B-6 (Pyridoxine HCL), Folic Acid and Trimethylglycine (I have NO idea what that is). My pharmacist also said that it was a good idea. The bottle says that it reduces homocysteine to methionine. I looked up some articles that said that bi-polars with continued psycho-social impairment even when non-symptomatic tend to have high homocysteine levels in their blood. It also indicated that people low in Folic Acid and B-12 tend to be low in SAM-e. From that perspective, it seems to me that by taking SAM-e and the anti-homocysteine is trying to tackle the same deficiency from two different angles...but what do I know??
> That happens a lot, when you substantially push the activity of a single biochemical process. You've probably so substantially increased your B-vitamin demand that your body is shifting into stress.
Hmmm. Good to know. I am planning on adding a B-Complex this Friday after I have some tests done just to see if I can get a baseline of critical deficiencies so I can have a better idea of what I am doing.
> > Now I know that SAMe is a methyl donor that allows the tryptophan-5HTP-5HT process and the tyrosine-dopamine-norepinephrine process to work.
>
> The more I look at that, the more I wonder where that idea came from. The only methylation process among the major neurotransmitters is the conversion of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) to epinephrine (adrenaline). Methylation *is* a key process in DNA transcription, and thus protein formation---> enzymes in general, receptors in general, etc.That's a bit disturbing as I read the information in a couple of medical journals. I guess it is just an indication of how little anybody really understands about the processes that go on in the brain.
> > I also know that people advise Bipolars not to take the stuff as it may cause mania, however my doc and pharmacist both said that this really wasn't true.
>
> It's not one of those things you can predict. What makes SAMe different from other interventions is that if you use it sensibly, activation can be noted, and the supplement stopped, long before frank mania ensues.At this point I would welcome a little mania anyway :-)
> See above. B-vitamin stress. You need a B-complex, and multimineral formulation. More specific recommendations come from specific symptoms. Anxiety could arise from niacin stress (niacinamide is the treatment, not niacin). Magnesium stress. Lots of things. Carpet bomb your body with general nutrients first, though.
Again, I am waiting until Friday to start a serious vitamin regiment until I get the tests done. Will begin on Friday.
>
> Get the B-complex and multiminerals going first. And, I'm astounded, as I read through your post, that nobody has yet suggested fish oil to you. Or antioxidants. Take fish oil with your biggest meal(s) of the day (same with the other supps). Start at 3 grams/day, and work up, as tolerated, to 5-7 grams. You need vitamin E to protect the fish oil, 400 IU (and vitamin C, too, 1,000 mg).I actually do take fish oil supplements, 2.5 grams 2X/day. I know with all of the information that has come out about Omega-3, it would be silly not to take these supplements. Nobody has ever recommended anti-oxidants at all. I guess that it would be a good assumption, just never thought of it. I know that there is some danger of getting too much vitamin A. Can you speak to that at all?
As a side note to that, do you happen to know if there are Omega-3 supplements available for infants? I have a 9mo old nephew who has mental illness on both sides of his family so I fear that the cards are stacked against him. I tried to convince my sister to take fish-oil while she was pregnant and breast feeding because I have read that it can substantially reduce the risk of the infant developing MI later in life. Unfortunately she could not keep them down. I figure that getting Omega and vitamin supplements going in his early life may reduce the risk of having to use more drastic interventions in his later life.
> > The reason that I am wondering about glutamine is because of an experience that my doctor had many moons ago. He was working on a study at the University of Texas doing blood tests for nutritional status. Just for kicks he decided to get himself tested. After a few weeks his motivation increased dramatically. Over several months he lost over 30 lbs without even thinking about it. They did a mini study on the issue and the results were duplicated in patients with a family history of depression and diabetes.
>
> Hmmm....gonna come back to that.I am interested to see from the tests that I am going to take if I am deficient in Glutamine.
> > I have two reasons for interest in this. The first is because I have motivation problems even when I am symptom free. The second is that my sister is clinically obese. She eats a pretty good diet and runs frequently but still gains weight.
>
> Could be a chromium problem. Gonna come back to it.Would the chromium cause the lack of motivation or just the weight gain?? I'll check that out and see what I can find.
>
> The presumption that your body has the nutrients it needs to fully utilize these treatments suggested by your pdoc may not be valid.Point well taken. I will definately start the Multi and B-Complex and wait awhile before looking all of the other stuff. Of course, if these tests show any gross deficiencies, I will address those as well. Still not sure if these tests are worth anything but all I have to lose is money. If I don't get this stuff under control, I may very well lose my life (as was the fate of my father) so I am willing to try anything that might help.
Thanks again for all the info. I will update you on the results of the tests and any interventions that are recommended as a result just so you can add it to your treasure-trove of knowledge.
Indie
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.