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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:24
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what? » jasmineneroli, posted by jujube on December 15, 2004, at 15:01:17
Pardon my intrusion, but what is DMAE?
If you suffer from anxiety at all, I would recommend staying away from SAME, it sent me right through the roof. I shook all day!!!!
Posted by jujube on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:25
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what?, posted by ravenstorm on December 15, 2004, at 20:06:21
You are not intruding at all. DMAE is a nutritional supplement which was at one time a prescription med (deanol) in Europe for ADD/ADHD and other things. It is a different supplement altogether from Sam-e. Here's just a little bit of info on DMAE.
Improves memory and learning capacity, increase alertness, boost energy levels and elevate mood.
A very efficient anti-oxidant and free radical activator. Augments the ability to handle multiple tasks simultaneously
Description Dimethylaminoethanol is a modified form of Choline - it is manufactured naturally in small amounts within the Brain and is also found in small amounts in the diet. It is also regarded as a (non-prescription) Smart Drug. DMAE is chemically similar to diethylaminoethanol (DEAE). Health Benefits: Aging & Life Extension DMAE inhibits (and reverses) the Cross-Linking of endogenous Proteins.By the way, how are things going for you? Have you find a new med to help combat your anxiety?
Tamara
> Pardon my intrusion, but what is DMAE?
>
> If you suffer from anxiety at all, I would recommend staying away from SAME, it sent me right through the roof. I shook all day!!!!
Posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:25
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what? » ravenstorm, posted by jujube on December 15, 2004, at 20:24:06
No. I think all of the WB is finally out of my system which leaves me with just the 15mg of remeron. So I'm pretty much back to where I started before the pdoc decided to augment it: ie, horrendous blood sugar drops (which cause more anxiety) and feeling generally unwell until after dinner/evening when I have a couple of good hours. Still have anxiety as well as a bit more depression/weepiness now that I'm back to just remeron. I didn't want to add anything new until some of the WB wackiness had died down and then I didn't want to add anything over the holidays AND THEN I decided I needed to do something about how the remeron is affecting my hormones, so I'm doing a 28 day hormone test and can't add any thing new during that time.
So, I'm just waiting. I know I'll have to go through another trial after the holidays. Probably lose another couple of months to whatever drug they try me on next.
I just don't know why my pdoc wanted to try to augment a drug that has soooooooooo many side effects for me. Anxiety, blood sugar, cognitive problems (cannot concentrate at all on this stuff) and all of the months of trying to augment mean I can now not just drop the remeron (sigh). The irony of this is that after finally getting off paxil, I am stuck on a drug with much worse side effects than paxil ever had. Thanks for asking about me. Sorry about the bitchfest.
Can people with anxiety generally take DMAE or not? Let us know how you do on it.
Posted by jujube on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:26
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what?, posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 9:37:00
I'm sorry to hear that you are having a hard time of it. Anxiety sucks! I don't know if I mentioned these things to you before, but I have found that taking about 250 - 375 mcg of chromium before bed helps to regularize blood sugar, and taking it has helped to reduce my anxiety in the mornings. I also sometimes take another 250 mcg in the morning upon rising (on an empty stomach). You might also want to try 250 - 500 mg of niacinimide 3 - 4 times a day. There has been a lot of disuccsion about it on the Alternative board, and a couple of people have been using it for anxiety and have been having good success in relieving anxiety.
DMAE is not supposed to cause anxiety. I haven't noticed an increase in anxiety since I started taking it. Of course, I have only been taking it for about 5 days now.
Here are some websites where you can read a bit more about DMAE. It sounds promising.
http://www.icon.ca.za/~edibo/dmae.htm
http://www.dmae.org/herbal-remedies/DMAE/Research-on-DMAE
http://www.wholehealthmnd.com/hc/doctortips/1,2316,489_10023,00.html
http://www.nutritional-supplement-info.com/dmae.html
http://www.raysahelian.com/methyl.html
Good luck to you. Take care.
Tamara
> No. I think all of the WB is finally out of my system which leaves me with just the 15mg of remeron. So I'm pretty much back to where I started before the pdoc decided to augment it: ie, horrendous blood sugar drops (which cause more anxiety) and feeling generally unwell until after dinner/evening when I have a couple of good hours. Still have anxiety as well as a bit more depression/weepiness now that I'm back to just remeron. I didn't want to add anything new until some of the WB wackiness had died down and then I didn't want to add anything over the holidays AND THEN I decided I needed to do something about how the remeron is affecting my hormones, so I'm doing a 28 day hormone test and can't add any thing new during that time.
>
> So, I'm just waiting. I know I'll have to go through another trial after the holidays. Probably lose another couple of months to whatever drug they try me on next.
>
> I just don't know why my pdoc wanted to try to augment a drug that has soooooooooo many side effects for me. Anxiety, blood sugar, cognitive problems (cannot concentrate at all on this stuff) and all of the months of trying to augment mean I can now not just drop the remeron (sigh). The irony of this is that after finally getting off paxil, I am stuck on a drug with much worse side effects than paxil ever had. Thanks for asking about me. Sorry about the bitchfest.
>
> Can people with anxiety generally take DMAE or not? Let us know how you do on it.
>
Posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:26
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what? » ravenstorm, posted by jujube on December 16, 2004, at 10:11:53
cool. Do you know if you can dissolve picolinate under your tongue? I did try it (although I took it in the morning) and it upset my stomach. (That has been my main obstacle with meds now--I get so sick to my stomach from the SSRIs, which is probably what I need to be on!) Can't take b vitamins for this reason--ARGHHHH. It really seems like if you have severe stomach problems and a mental illness you are totally out of luck!
Also, I found some studies out of Berkley and I believe picolinate is banned in the UK (?? not sure on this) because of chromosomal damage. Scared me. Also, I think the Berkeley paper indicated it affects neurotransmitters (but they didn't elaborate) so people with mood problems should be careful.
I think I may try the picolinate again, this time at night as you suggested (I still have the practically full bottle of it), but all of these supplements will have to wait until I am done with the hormone testing. Unfortunately, I seem to be as hyper sensitive to "natural" alternatives as I am to standard medications.
You must get so sick of me shooting down your suggestions! My stomach has just not had a lot of luck tolerating anything!! I'm desperate enough to try the picolinate again, however.
Thanks for the links about DMAE.
Posted by jujube on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:26
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what?, posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 10:48:50
I actually don't use chromium picolinate, and I would think that there are other forms of chromium besides picolinate. I use another form of chromium - chromium GTF. It is a Natural Factors product called "Chromium and Vanadium". I don't know if you can dissolve it under the tongue or not. I suppose you could open the capsule and give it a try. It might work faster doing that way. By the way, chromium is also supposed to be good for anxiety.
If you are experiencing nauseau from ADs, particuarly SSRIs, give Ginger capsules a try. My mom takes Ginger Gravol for upset stomach, and she says it is the best thing she has used. There are studies that demonstrate that ginger is a very effective remedy for nausea and upset stomach. A friend of mine at work also uses ginger to help with nausea and upset stomach, including the nausea caused by migraines. Another thing, ginger is also effective for migraines.
Re the B's, sorry, I had forgotten about your adverse reaction to the Bs. If you have problems with B vitamins, you might want to try magnesium for your anxiety. It is also supposed to be calming. I take 250 mg in the morning and another 250 mg at bedtime. Seems to provide some relief.
Good luck to you, particularly with the hormone testing. I am thinking of having that done as well. I will be curious to know how it goes for you.
Take care.
Tamara
> cool. Do you know if you can dissolve picolinate under your tongue? I did try it (although I took it in the morning) and it upset my stomach. (That has been my main obstacle with meds now--I get so sick to my stomach from the SSRIs, which is probably what I need to be on!) Can't take b vitamins for this reason--ARGHHHH. It really seems like if you have severe stomach problems and a mental illness you are totally out of luck!
>
> Also, I found some studies out of Berkley and I believe picolinate is banned in the UK (?? not sure on this) because of chromosomal damage. Scared me. Also, I think the Berkeley paper indicated it affects neurotransmitters (but they didn't elaborate) so people with mood problems should be careful.
>
> I think I may try the picolinate again, this time at night as you suggested (I still have the practically full bottle of it), but all of these supplements will have to wait until I am done with the hormone testing. Unfortunately, I seem to be as hyper sensitive to "natural" alternatives as I am to standard medications.
>
> You must get so sick of me shooting down your suggestions! My stomach has just not had a lot of luck tolerating anything!! I'm desperate enough to try the picolinate again, however.
>
> Thanks for the links about DMAE.
Posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:27
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what? » ravenstorm, posted by jujube on December 16, 2004, at 11:39:20
Oh, good to know you can get chromium in another form, although I don't know if its the picolinate that causes the problems or not. I think I will try the one you mentioned. . .maybe it won't cause stomach upset or cause the alleged chromosome thing. Did you have a reason for trying the other form of chromium?
Have tried ginger and it helps a bit if it is nausea, but I have other upset stomach issues that don't involve nausea. Wouldn't hurt to try that again to, but it doens't do anything for severe heart burn that makes me so dizzy and sick I can't stand up!!
Posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:28
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what?, posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 12:23:08
OH, the other thing is that I really do think the remeron is contributing to the anxiety, especially in the morning. AFter all, the drug is designed to knock you out at night, and then kicks in the noreph. to wake you up in the AM. It is just too much for my system.
Posted by zeugma on December 16, 2004, at 21:58:28
In reply to Re: Should I just cut my losses or what?, posted by ravenstorm on December 16, 2004, at 12:25:01
Hi Tamara,
Thanks for the links about DMAE.
I do not believe the explanation that its manufacturers dropped DMAE from FDA approval for treatment of ADHD because of expense of clinical trials. The nootropic Aricept, which appears similar, has also been looked at for ADHD, but its effects appear to be marginal at best, and the actual FDA indication for such drugs is the treatment of Alzheimer's disease. They are useful for this purpose because they reverse the interoceptive (self-awareness) deficits that are linked both to Alzheimer's and to the lack of sel;f-awareness that typically accompanies dreaming. Consistent with this, I noticed one of the abstracts you linked to discussed DMAE's role in facilitating lucid dreaming. That is the last thing I need, because I suffer from narcolepsy, and this condition causes waking and dreaming consciousness to blur together (my therapist was shocked to hear that I routinely would awaken when I 'knew' I was dreaming, and that this happened constantly. She simply was unfamiliar with narcolepsy. I will withhold comment on whether this is excusable in a neuropsychologist. I have been forced to be my own neuropsychologist, because this field does not not appear to be well stocked with able practicitioners.).
I do not believe that ADHD resembles Alzheimer's in this regard; in fact many people with ADHD are extremely introspective and aware of their own mental processes, to the point where interoceptive stimuli become more salient than external ones.
Interestingly, nortriptyline, which I use to treat this problem (believe me, it is a TERRIBLE problem, as I simply cannot remain in a 'mixed' consciousness for very long- it literally feels like two forms of consciousness fighting for control of my CNS, and can be extremely painful as well as jarring) is a cholinergic antagonist, and this underlies some of its effectiveness in treating both depression and narcolepsy. It is also somewhat effective in treating ADHD (in fact I was prescribed it as a second-line treatment for ADHD). Clomipramine (but not Celexa) is also somewhat effective for ADHD. Clomipramine increases noradrenergic neurotransmission, and this causes indirect reduction of cholinergic neurotransmission. Norepinephrine and acetylcholine are 'opposite numbers' in the CNS (experts here are invited to evaluate this statement!).
There is a strong link on the one hand between norepinephrine's role in blocking REM, on the one hand, and cholinergic drugs' intensifying it. I do not believe that it is a coincidence that all known drugs that strongly and specfically suppress REM are used in the treatment of narcolepsy and depression, and are also somewhat efficacious in treating ADHD.
-z
Posted by jujube on December 18, 2004, at 10:06:09
In reply to speculations on acetylcholine and NE, posted by zeugma on December 16, 2004, at 20:31:11
> Thanks for the links about DMAE.
Tamara,
>
> Thanks for the links about DMAE.-- My pleasure, although I am sorry I had not taken the time to include them in my direct response to you when I raised DMAE. My apologies.
> I do not believe the explanation that its manufacturers dropped DMAE from FDA approval for treatment of ADHD because of expense of clinical trials.
-- You are probably right. Not only am I not the hottest coal in the fire at times, I am, by nature (unfortunately), quite gullible (although I always told those who made fun of my gullible nature that I was actually trusting and that was a good thing). I found another article that talks about DMAE, and what was said was that DMAE was originally marketed as a prescription drug for hyperactivity, but was withdrawn because it lacked significant efficacy evidence. The article also talks about the some types of ADHD appearing to be mediated by dopamine-hypometabolism and others may be due to acetylcholine dysfunction. Here is the website, if you are interested:
http://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/Sept011.htm
> Interestingly, nortriptyline, which I use to treat this problem (believe me, it is a TERRIBLE problem, as I simply cannot remain in a 'mixed' consciousness for very long- it literally feels like two forms of consciousness fighting for control of my CNS, and can be extremely painful as well as jarring) is a cholinergic antagonist, and this underlies some of its effectiveness in treating both depression and narcolepsy. It is also somewhat effective in treating ADHD (in fact I was prescribed it as a second-line treatment for ADHD). Clomipramine (but not Celexa) is also somewhat effective for ADHD. Clomipramine increases noradrenergic neurotransmission, and this causes indirect reduction of cholinergic neurotransmission. Norepinephrine and acetylcholine are 'opposite numbers' in the CNS (experts here are invited to evaluate this statement!).
-- I can only begin to imagine what you go through each day, and my heart goes out to you. I certainly do not suffer that greatly. I am extremely hyper and have the attention span of a tse tse fly, but these things have not caused any signficant problems in my life. The jobs I have had have always been good for a hyper person, and even the distractability and short attention span have not been too problematice since my work has always required me to deal with many multiple priorties over the courseof any given day. However, the attention span issue does become a bit of an issue when I have to read long court decisions or review and analyze long, tedious pieces of draft legislation, or sit in a long meeting.
Anyways, take good care, and I hope I'll be chatting with you again soon.
Tamara
Posted by zeugma on December 20, 2004, at 18:18:32
In reply to Re: speculations on acetylcholine and NE » zeugma, posted by jujube on December 18, 2004, at 10:06:09
> > Thanks for the links about DMAE.
> Tamara,
> >
> > Thanks for the links about DMAE.
>
> -- My pleasure, although I am sorry I had not taken the time to include them in my direct response to you when I raised DMAE. My apologies.There was no inconvenience on my part. I appreciated the links :)
>
> > I do not believe the explanation that its manufacturers dropped DMAE from FDA approval for treatment of ADHD because of expense of clinical trials.
>
> -- You are probably right. Not only am I not the hottest coal in the fire at times, I am, by nature (unfortunately), quite gullible (although I always told those who made fun of my gullible nature that I was actually trusting and that was a good thing).Posting inquiries on various drugs and supps here, where some real experts can be found (not myself of course- I never took a high school chem class and would have failed it if I had, but of course I failed everything in those days...) is not a gullible thing, but a rational thing to do. There are trustworthy people here!
I found another article that talks about DMAE, and what was said was that DMAE was originally marketed as a prescription drug for hyperactivity, but was withdrawn because it lacked significant efficacy evidence. The article also talks about the some types of ADHD appearing to be mediated by dopamine-hypometabolism and others may be due to acetylcholine dysfunction. Here is the website, if you are interested:
>
> http://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/Sept011.htm
>Yes, I checked it out, and it is interesting. It seems that the authors believe that cholinomimetic drugs would be especially good for inattentive ADD. This definitely catches my attention (pardon my strange sense of humor). It seems to me, intuitively, that inattentive ADD'ers are the 'daydreaming' type, and that this propensity to daydream would be a mark of cholinergic overactivity, not underactivity. In fact, I believe that inattentive ADD is more likely to result in depression than the hyperactive kind (although this may be utterly wrong- I need to research this, it should be easy enough to pull up an abstract or two from pub Med, but I am lazy- this is an important topic and I should look into it tonight). I would have thought the daydreaming would profit from specific REM suppression, which selective NE reuptake inhibitors perform (for the link, check out this study on the differential effects of stimulants and NE reuptake inhibitors: http://www.sro.org/pdf/863.pdf
You will notice that this study was performed on narcoleptic canines, not on inattentive ones, so this finding may have no bearing on the issue of inattentive ADD. You can see from the study why I would have seen acetylcholine and norepinephrine as 'opposite numbers', since NRI's and anticholinergics suppress REM while cholinergics enhance it. Desipramine and nisoxetine, the NRI's used in the study, are both AD's, although nisoxetine was dropped by Lilly in favor of its cousin, atomoxetine, which is ... an ADHD medication! And although PsychoBabbleLand is full of horror stories about this med, including my own, if you go to http://crazymeds.org/, you will find atomoxetine (Strattera) in heavy rotation as an ADHD med. (You'll also find them, or at least Jerod, site owner, bashing TCA's. It's good to get a spectrum of opinions.)
I don't know what to conclude from all this. but if DMAE is working for you, that is fantastic!
>
> -- I can only begin to imagine what you go through each day, and my heart goes out to you. I certainly do not suffer that greatly. I am extremely hyper and have the attention span of a tse tse fly, but these things have not caused any signficant problems in my life. The jobs I have had have always been good for a hyper person, and even the distractability and short attention span have not been too problematice since my work has always required me to deal with many multiple priorties over the courseof any given day. However, the attention span issue does become a bit of an issue when I have to read long court decisions or review and analyze long, tedious pieces of draft legislation, or sit in a long meeting.
Thank you for the kind words. Being hyper has its benefits, as you know, and being in a 'dreamlike' state much of the time does too, even though it's harder to exploit professionally (I'm working on that one). I actually was a hyperactive child, and retain traces of this (highly nervous, and I sometimes enjoy doing two things at once, so that two boring tasks cancel each other out). .>
> Anyways, take good care, and I hope I'll be chatting with you again soon.
>
> TamaraThanks, same here.
-z
Posted by jujube on December 21, 2004, at 16:50:34
In reply to Re: speculations on acetylcholine and NE » jujube, posted by zeugma on December 20, 2004, at 18:18:32
Posting inquiries on various drugs and supps here, where some real experts can be found (not myself of course- I never took a high school chem class and would have failed it if I had, but of course I failed everything in those days...) is not a gullible thing, but a rational thing to do. There are trustworthy people here!
-- I agree that there are trustworthy people here, and I have come to rely upon and trust the advice and information I have gleaned from this site. It's the often conflicting and at times biased information that one finds on some websites that lead me to seek out more information or some sort of confirmation as to the veracity of the information. I guess I am becoming less naive and learning to recognize the "spin" that is sometimes used to perhaps enhance a products credibility.
> Yes, I checked it out, and it is interesting. It seems that the authors believe that cholinomimetic drugs would be especially good for inattentive ADD. This definitely catches my attention (pardon my strange sense of humor). It seems to me, intuitively, that inattentive ADD'ers are the 'daydreaming' type, and that this propensity to daydream would be a mark of cholinergic overactivity, not underactivity. In fact, I believe that inattentive ADD is more likely to result in depression than the hyperactive kind (although this may be utterly wrong- I need to research this, it should be easy enough to pull up an abstract or two from pub Med, but I am lazy- this is an important topic and I should look into it tonight). I would have thought the daydreaming would profit from specific REM suppression, which selective NE reuptake inhibitors perform (for the link, check out this study on the differential effects of stimulants and NE reuptake inhibitors: http://www.sro.org/pdf/863.pdf
-- The study was interesting. I read it quickly, and will re-read it so that the facts really sink in. No to be morbid (and completely off topic), but what happens to the dogs when the experiments/study are over? I hope they don't have to be put down. For some reason, I can handle the thought of tests being done on rats, but I hate the thought of those poor dogs being subjected to such a thing. I love animals, and am a bleeding heart to boot.
And although PsychoBabbleLand is full of horror stories about this med, including my own, if you go to http://crazymeds.org/, you will find atomoxetine (Strattera) in heavy rotation as an ADHD med. (You'll also find them, or at least Jerod, site owner, bashing TCA's. It's good to get a spectrum of opinions.)-- At this point, the only stimulant-like med I will be willing to try is Provigil. With respect to Crazymeds, I have visited that site a number of times. It's interesting. Question. When Jerod talks about "Mouse's" experience, is he talking about a real mouse that he gives meds too? Or is it a joke and he's talking about his computer mouse? Just something I had wondered.
> I don't know what to conclude from all this. but if DMAE is working for you, that is fantastic!-- The combination of DMAE, NADH and Vitex seems to be doing something. I am starting to feel like my old self again. Still hyper and easily distratcted, but, heh, that is really my old self so I can't complain. I hope the combo continues to work because it is such a nice feeling (it's kind of freaking me out - in a good way!).
Anyways, take good care of yourself. Until next time.Tamara
Posted by zeugma on December 21, 2004, at 20:37:32
In reply to Re: speculations on acetylcholine and NE » zeugma, posted by jujube on December 21, 2004, at 16:50:34
-- The study was interesting. I read it quickly, and will re-read it so that the facts really sink in. No to be morbid (and completely off topic), but what happens to the dogs when the experiments/study are over? I hope they don't have to be put down. For some reason, I can handle the thought of tests being done on rats, but I hate the thought of those poor dogs being subjected to such a thing. I love animals, and am a bleeding heart to boot.
Unfortunately, the dogs were killed. I share your sentiments about them, and while it is tragic that both species (human and dog) are subject to narcolepsy, it is doubly tragic for a narcoleptic dog to be sacrificed in the name of science... the only consolation is that human understanding of narcolepsy is immeasurably aided by studies with dogs. Since I've never had a pet rat, it doesn't faze me as much, either, that rats are routinely sacrificed in pharmacological studies, although it does bother me. The very fact that rats are used so extensively in these studies (their nervous systems in many ways are closer to humans' than, say, cats'- argues for humane treatment of them, since it implies they are able to feel and suffer.
-- At this point, the only stimulant-like med I will be willing to try is Provigil.That's wise, if you're subject to anxiety. Provigil, like virtually every psych med that is not heavily sedating, can be anxiety-provoking on first administration, but its effect becomes anxiety-neutral, or even anxiolytic.
With respect to Crazymeds, I have visited that site a number of times. It's interesting. Question. When Jerod talks about "Mouse's" experience, is he talking about a real mouse that he gives meds too? Or is it a joke and he's talking about his computer mouse? Just something I had wondered.
Mouse is the name of his girlfriend, or ex-girlfriend. It's amusing to think of his having a mouse that tries out all his meds for him- and even more amusing to think of his describing the mouse as calling a drug "icky" and so forth- I suppose a rodent would have better luck finding a 'bipolar-autistic-spazz' (I'm quoting his self-description, and not intending to be derogatory at all) for an owner, who feeds her all sorts of interesting medications then writes down her 'experiences', than being the property of highly sane, dedicated researchers who have no compunctions over 'sacrifice' after feeding the meds. It's something to think about (I would insert a smiley here, but the subject is a little too grim).
> I don't know what to conclude from all this. but if DMAE is working for you, that is fantastic!
-- The combination of DMAE, NADH and Vitex seems to be doing something. I am starting to feel like my old self again. Still hyper and easily distratcted, but, heh, that is really my old self so I can't complain. I hope the combo continues to work because it is such a nice feeling (it's kind of freaking me out - in a good way!).
Sounds good :)
Anyways, take good care of yourself. Until next time.
Tamara
Same here.
-z
Posted by jujube on December 22, 2004, at 14:20:29
In reply to notes, serious and sardonic » jujube, posted by zeugma on December 21, 2004, at 20:37:32
> Unfortunately, the dogs were killed. I share your sentiments about them, and while it is tragic that both species (human and dog) are subject to narcolepsy, it is doubly tragic for a narcoleptic dog to be sacrificed in the name of science... the only consolation is that human understanding of narcolepsy is immeasurably aided by studies with dogs. Since I've never had a pet rat, it doesn't faze me as much, either, that rats are routinely sacrificed in pharmacological studies, although it does bother me. The very fact that rats are used so extensively in these studies (their nervous systems in many ways are closer to humans' than, say, cats'- argues for humane treatment of them, since it implies they are able to feel and suffer.
>
-- Poor animals. And, even though I am not a fan of rats and mice, I do hate the thought of the suffering these little creatures go through. But, I guess if it is in the name of science . . . I'm just glad that I don't have to do the testing. I would be a basket case if I did. I got my dog from the Humane Society, and it was so sad walking through and seeing all the dogs that may never get homes and would likely be destroyed as a result. If I had a farm, I would have taken them all home with me so they would not have to suffer such a fate.> Mouse is the name of his girlfriend, or ex-girlfriend.
-- Must have missed that tidbit of information when I visited the site! Boy, do I feel stupid!
It's amusing to think of his having a mouse that tries out all his meds for him- and even more amusing to think of his describing the mouse as calling a drug "icky" and so forth- I suppose a rodent would have better luck finding a 'bipolar-autistic-spazz' (I'm quoting his self-description, and not intending to be derogatory at all) for an owner, who feeds her all sorts of interesting medications then writes down her 'experiences', than being the property of highly sane, dedicated researchers who have no compunctions over 'sacrifice' after feeding the meds. It's something to think about (I would insert a smiley here, but the subject is a little too grim).
-- Although I don't use my dog as a drug trial subject, I have to say that she has definite opinions on things (food, treats, people and their actions), which she expresses with either a snort or a series of sneezes. Needless to say, she has a lot on her mind at times. I, being the neurotic pet owner that I am, serve as her translater.
Well, take care of yourself, and I'll talk to you another time.Tamara
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