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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on August 3, 2005, at 15:56:20
In reply to Re: Ibogaine, posted by Declan on August 3, 2005, at 15:17:44
It is thought that the 5-ht2a/c agonistic properties of many hallucinogens rapidly downregulates the upregulated receptors seen in the suicidal brain.
Linkadge
Posted by barbaracat on August 4, 2005, at 22:21:03
In reply to Re: Ibogaine, posted by linkadge on August 3, 2005, at 15:56:20
You mention Ahuasca. That is a different botanical substance from Brazil whose main action is from harmaline compounds, known to dramatically increase empathic abilities.
DMT is a short-acting hit of a chemical compound not related to harmaline. However, while you're under it, time morphs into forever and you can talk to the Divine. Of course, I've had that experience going under with nitrous oxide at the dentist, so I guess it's how you're wired.
By the way, harmaline is a very cool substance. Also derived from the Syrian Rue plant as peganum harmalum. An arcane trip where no one in the room is speaking yet everyone is communicating, if you know what I mean. Hard to get and hard to grow in your backyard. Erowid would have the best resources. - BCat
Posted by Iansf on August 6, 2005, at 17:45:26
In reply to Re: Ibogaine, posted by barbaracat on August 4, 2005, at 22:21:03
> By the way, harmaline is a very cool substance. Also derived from the Syrian Rue plant as peganum harmalum. An arcane trip where no one in the room is speaking yet everyone is communicating, if you know what I mean. Hard to get and hard to grow in your backyard. Erowid would have the best resources. - BCat
Isn't harmaline an MAO inhibitor? In which case, you presumably would have to observe the same food precautions required with Nardil, Parnate et al. Or have I confused harmaline with another substance of similar name?
Posted by EERRIICC on August 6, 2005, at 19:16:19
In reply to Re: Ibogaine, posted by barbaracat on August 4, 2005, at 22:21:03
The Maoi harmaline stops DMT from being broken down when taken as an oral preparation from the Caapi vine I think, are you interested in trying this king of thing? They arrange trips apparently.
Posted by EERRIICC on August 6, 2005, at 19:22:25
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by Declan on August 2, 2005, at 23:01:47
Declan, that's really interesting that you've tried it, tell me some explicit details! In what manner and for how long did it eliminate depression? Was it scary? Was it DMT or 5-MEO-DMT? Have you heard of the book by Dr.Rick Strassmen called "The Spirit Molecule"?
Salvia Divinorum has some anecdotal evidence as being an anti-depressant, the 10X extract just knocked me on my *ss with its "stange power", so I think I'll order some 5X and some regular stuff and experiment, I'm on an MAOI so that should potentiate it.
Eric
Posted by barbaracat on August 6, 2005, at 19:31:23
In reply to Re: Ibogaine » barbaracat, posted by Iansf on August 6, 2005, at 17:45:26
I couldn't find much reference on this except a few searches that mentioned harmaline as indeed an MAOI inhibitor. How potent? Who knows. Deprenyl is also a reversable MAO inhibitor but there do not seem to be precautions from taking it for Parkenson's, etc. If you do a google search, there's a ton of stuff.
> Isn't harmaline an MAO inhibitor? In which case, you presumably would have to observe the same food precautions required with Nardil, Parnate et al. Or have I confused harmaline with another substance of similar name?
>
>
Posted by barbaracat on August 6, 2005, at 19:45:01
In reply to Re: Ibogaine » barbaracat, posted by Iansf on August 6, 2005, at 17:45:26
I found this which has a lot of info on ayhuasca and tyramines, i.e., MAOI.
http://www.ayahuasca.com/cgi-bin/faq.pl#1.GENERAL
>
> Isn't harmaline an MAO inhibitor? In which case, you presumably would have to observe the same food precautions required with Nardil, Parnate et al. Or have I confused harmaline with another substance of similar name?
>
>
Posted by barbaracat on August 6, 2005, at 19:48:45
In reply to Re: Ibogaine » barbaracat, posted by EERRIICC on August 6, 2005, at 19:16:19
> The Maoi harmaline stops DMT from being broken down when taken as an oral preparation from the Caapi vine I think, are you interested in trying this king of thing? They arrange trips apparently.
I would have jumped at it 20 years ago. I have done ayhuasca in the past. But I've come to respect the delicate balance my brain has achieved and don't wish to tamper. Besides, I've been able to contact that place on my own, without psychedelics. Not quite as blazing, but all mine.
Posted by Declan on August 7, 2005, at 3:03:59
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » Declan, posted by EERRIICC on August 6, 2005, at 19:22:25
Hello EERRIICC
DMT didn't eliminate depression for me at that time, and I have only taken it a couple of times. But I have had that experience, once or twice for a week or two. I think that came from the experience of the trip itself. It would have been mushrooms (psiloscybe cubensis) or LSD.
But what I have done, back in the days when I could get good LSD, is to take *quite* low doses of it, maybe repeating the dose once or twice. Just so everything looked strange and interesting. This reminds me of Linkadge's descriptions of the AD effects of sleep deprivation, where everything looked mysterious and new. This seems close to some sort of spiritual, for want of a better word, response to the world. 'Where all is new and holy' is maybe the way William Blake described it.
As for whether it was DMT ot 5-MEO-DMT, I dunno. I smoked it, it worked in seconds, and had a pretty awful chemical taste. Lasted maybe 20 minutes.
Isn't Salvia supposed to work through some (weird?) opiate receptor. I bought some here but it didn't work.
What is the MAOI you take? I'm not entirely satisfied with Parnate 10mg/d but I can sleep and at least have a potential sex life.
Declan
Posted by Declan on August 7, 2005, at 3:07:49
In reply to Re: Ibogaine » barbaracat, posted by Iansf on August 6, 2005, at 17:45:26
I once took this stuff called Harmine. It was not then on the prohibited import list. Very nice, what I imagined mescaline to be like, which means it was like LSD but a little softer. Probably not the same as Harmaline, maybe it's got something to do with yage.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on August 7, 2005, at 4:57:25
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by Declan on August 7, 2005, at 3:03:59
It was funny because I have never done any kind of psycadellic, but after sleep deprivation I notice a very profound sence of self. Some experiences like my LSD friend has described.
...
When you are depressed, the world comes first and then you come second. After sleep deprivation, you come first, and the world comes second.
It shifts the ballance back to you.
But that shift of ballance usually comes with what I call a short psychotic epiphany. Where its like you are subjected to (all at once) the guilt of everything you have ever done wrong. Almost like God is showing you how you have been a bad person. At this point you feel more wreched than you have ever, almost like a short painfull psychic akathesia. Ususally like 3am. Maybe this corresponds to some kind of deep stage of sleep.
But shortly that condemned feeling slowly disolves, and you start to feel forgiven, absolved, redeemed! After this you are just so happy to be alive. It is almost as if the problem of your mood was not of this earth.
It is interesting because what I think is going on here is like a reseting/shifting of personal worth. After these experiences I can't help but stop basing my feelings of self worth on what the world determines. It is as if, after sleep deprivation, my self worth is more devine. You can see above your problems, even if they are not solved. They don't hit you. It is like you are floating through the clouds and looking at your problems from a distance. You are completely protected by a barrier, that lasts the whole night. You and your problems are two completely separate entities. You have transcended them for a while.
The next day is magic. Mystical but still serious. Almost like you were just born, but at the same time have been alive forever. Everything looks mystical. "Old fashoned" is a good way to discribe it. Otherworldly.
(sleep deprivation regulates C-fos and immediate early gene transcription similar to drugs like cocaine)
Sorry for blithering.Linkadge
Posted by EERRIICC on August 7, 2005, at 11:26:52
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by Declan on August 7, 2005, at 3:03:59
150mg Parnate, the bitch always poops out on me after a couple months but this time I've got a super doctor from MGH that's going to augment it with everything possible, I'll let you know what happens if you want. Parnate changes in interesting ways as the dose is increases so don't be afraid to push it as high as possible.
Posted by Declan on August 7, 2005, at 15:30:25
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by EERRIICC on August 7, 2005, at 11:26:52
But I would never sleep. Really, not without a lot of help and that would create its own problems. And my depression is not so bad, well sometimes I'm not so sure about that, and then I put it down to a justified reaction to a difficult world.
Declan
Posted by ed_uk on August 7, 2005, at 16:02:04
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by EERRIICC on August 7, 2005, at 11:26:52
Hi Eric,
>Parnate changes in interesting ways as the dose is increases so don't be afraid to push it as high as possible.
How has it changed (for you)?
>augment it with everything possible....
What have you tried so far? What will you try next?
Kind regards
~Ed
Posted by barbaracat on August 7, 2005, at 17:31:45
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » Declan, posted by EERRIICC on August 6, 2005, at 19:22:25
Here's a link to a mailing list my husband is on. He ordered a very concentrated form of salvia divinorum and said it really is quite potent. I tried some a while back mixed in with a little pot, but since I don't do well with marijuana in general, I didn't try it again. But I do remember brilliant colors and such. Here it the site, a kind of resource for salvia div.:
> Declan, that's really interesting that you've tried it, tell me some explicit details! In what manner and for how long did it eliminate depression? Was it scary? Was it DMT or 5-MEO-DMT? Have you heard of the book by Dr.Rick Strassmen called "The Spirit Molecule"?
>
> Salvia Divinorum has some anecdotal evidence as being an anti-depressant, the 10X extract just knocked me on my *ss with its "stange power", so I think I'll order some 5X and some regular stuff and experiment, I'm on an MAOI so that should potentiate it.
>
> Eric
Posted by teejay on August 7, 2005, at 18:31:54
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by linkadge on August 7, 2005, at 4:57:25
<i>" Where its like you are subjected to (all at once) the guilt of everything you have ever done wrong. Almost like God is showing you how you have been a bad person. At this point you feel more wreched than you have ever"<i/>
That pretty much describes me most of the time!
TJ
Posted by EERRIICC on August 8, 2005, at 12:05:12
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » EERRIICC, posted by ed_uk on August 7, 2005, at 16:02:04
Hey Ed,
It's like amphetamine at higher doses, I'll get back to you later on augments.
Posted by Declan on August 8, 2005, at 15:33:28
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » ed_uk, posted by EERRIICC on August 8, 2005, at 12:05:12
Hey EERRIICC, tell us too about your sleep schedule, or how you do it. I can't remember your dose now, except that it was high. Jochen had no trouble sleeping on 160mg/d, but he said he slept too much anyway.
Declan
Posted by ed_uk on August 8, 2005, at 16:08:00
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » ed_uk, posted by EERRIICC on August 8, 2005, at 12:05:12
>I'll get back to you later on augments.
Ok :-)
~Ed
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 21:19:32
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » EERRIICC, posted by ed_uk on August 8, 2005, at 16:08:00
A little off topic but read an article that said that lithium or pindolol prolonged the AD effect of sleep deprivaton, but that a stimulant did not. There are serotogenic mechanisms of sleep deprivation too.
Linkadge
Posted by barbaracat on August 13, 2005, at 21:57:14
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 21:19:32
Sleep deprivation sure wouldn't be a good idea for bipolars, however. You mention a serotonin connection. That has me wondering about serotonin's role in bipolar. Granted, we go through our depressions, but it seems we might be more sensitive to serotonin in a negative way. SSRI and other AD intolerance, for instance. Maybe serotonin isn't beneficial for us, but what's a bipolar depressive to do?
And then, there's 'dark therapy', increasing periods of absolute darkness, which has had some success in resetting bipolar chronology. There once was a time I'd rather stay up nights on end but anymore, I'll take 'dark therapy' and just sleep it off. - Barbara
> A little off topic but read an article that said that lithium or pindolol prolonged the AD effect of sleep deprivaton, but that a stimulant did not. There are serotogenic mechanisms of sleep deprivation too.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 14, 2005, at 5:03:47
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » linkadge, posted by barbaracat on August 13, 2005, at 21:57:14
Its funny because the way that SSRi's increase serotonin is different from how lithium increases serotonin.
Lithium actually has a strong serotogenic effect, but it interacts with a few serotonin receptors ie 5-ht2a/c so that PKC is not activated.
Serotonin is calming at certain receptors, and upping and other receptors. So to say that a bipolar doesn't need serotonin may or may not be true.
Lithium interacts with the 5-ht1b receptor which affects GSK-3b signaling. GSK-3b seems to have a strong effect in regulating the circadian rhythm. A link below.
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=11642
Actually some people treat their mood disorders solely thought manipulation of sleep. Proponents say its effective and has less burdonsome side effects than conventional treatments.
Linkadge
Posted by barbaracat on August 14, 2005, at 14:58:34
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression, posted by linkadge on August 14, 2005, at 5:03:47
Interesting article and website. Somewhat off topic, but have you ever looked into the mechanics of transdermal application of meds? I use transdermal creams for hormones and find them more effective than oral. I prefer anything that bypasses the liver. I also have GI absorption issues and would prefer to just inject or rub on my meds whenever I can.
So, I experiment with benign substances, i.e., pain meds that usually rip up my stomach if I take them orally, using DMSO and PhloGel transport mediums. Some results are better than others, probably depending on how soluble the product is as well as other bioassimlation factors I know nothing about.
But I never considered using transdermal delivery for any of my mood meds. I wouldn't want to experiment - too much at stake. Your post got me wondering about how an alternate transport method would affect receptor affinity? Also wondering if the cytochrome P450 isoenzyme metabolites of the drug are really doing the work? In which case the liver's first pass would be necessary and a transdermal delivery would be ineffective - or worse.
Musing, just musing, but these are the kinds of things that keep me up at night. I think I need to take some pharmacology courses.- Barbara
unny because the way that SSRi's increase serotonin is different from how lithium increases serotonin.
>
> Lithium actually has a strong serotogenic effect, but it interacts with a few serotonin receptors ie 5-ht2a/c so that PKC is not activated.
>
> Serotonin is calming at certain receptors, and upping and other receptors. So to say that a bipolar doesn't need serotonin may or may not be true.
>
> Lithium interacts with the 5-ht1b receptor which affects GSK-3b signaling. GSK-3b seems to have a strong effect in regulating the circadian rhythm. A link below.
>
> http://www.news-medical.net/?id=11642
>
> Actually some people treat their mood disorders solely thought manipulation of sleep. Proponents say its effective and has less burdonsome side effects than conventional treatments.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 14, 2005, at 18:05:51
In reply to Re: The link for DMT cures depression » linkadge, posted by barbaracat on August 14, 2005, at 14:58:34
I think about the stuff too. Although, I haven't done a lot of thiking/research on transdermal delivery systems.
Linkadge
Posted by EERRIICC on August 16, 2005, at 23:40:08
In reply to Parnate augmentation, Sleep, posted by Declan on August 8, 2005, at 15:33:28
One day on one day off. (creepy at times but nice too)
This is the end of the thread.
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