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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
I recently spoke to someone who told me something kind of odd. She said that at about ages 3-4, when her mother was away and her father was supposed to be watching her, that he used to take her with him when he had to go to the bathroom (since she was so young and shouldn't be left alone). She also said that she remembers sitting on his lap while he was going to the bathroom. She told me that she was never molested by either of her parents, or anyone else. What do you guys think about this situation? Is this a normal parenting procedure? I don't have any kids, so I don't know.
Elle
Posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 6:44:54
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
I feel that is completely unneccesary and frankly concerns me. First of all, if the child needs to be watched at all times, it is fine to bring them into the bathroom but I don't understand why the need for her to sit on the lap at the ages of 3 and 4. Maybe I had a really good kid, but I can't imagine that level of watching that being in the same room wasn't enough, that I would actually have to put them on my naked lap while using the toilet??? Ummmmm....A little extreme IMO. But I don't want to be too judgmental, there may be other valid reasons I don't know about.
Posted by Crooked Heart on March 6, 2004, at 7:10:36
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
Sounds odd to me, Elle. You might take a small child along to the bathroom if you really, really needed to keep a close eye on them for some reason, but sitting the child on the lap - no.
I can relate to that sort of memory in a way. 'Am I remembering this properly?' 'Why does it feel so uneasy'? 'Was that behaviour alright or was it a long way out of line?'
ch
Posted by All Done on March 6, 2004, at 7:47:26
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
> My son is not even two, yet. When I go to the bathroom, I just leave the door open so I can hear what he's up to. I don't make him come into the bathroom with me. Occasionally, he wants to come in to see what the "potty" is all about and we don't stop him. There's definitely no sitting on our laps, though.
Posted by KindGirl on March 6, 2004, at 8:08:10
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
Dear Elle,
First off let me say this...I don't know anything about anything. I "used" to know everything about everything but I am learning in therapy that I really don't know anything at all.
!!!!
So with that caveat let me say this: this is sexual abuse according to my T. The reason I say this is because I remember my dad, who was very nurturing and the only nurturer I had, used to hold me on his lap and put his hand just inside the top of my underwear...kind of like Al Bundy on the old show Married W/Children if you know that show. I said this casually in t. one day and T. stopped me immediately and said, "that is sexual abuse. that is huge."...and she said that sexual abuse does not just mean penetration or outright sexual relations...it can be sexual talk, inappropriate behavior (and YES THIS WAS EXTREMELY ODD AND WRONG PARENTAL BEHAVIOR, SEXUAL OR NOT)...I have 3 kids and was a school teacher for over 10 years....this is not healthy or normal.My dad, after the divorce and he left, used to watch pornos with me and my brother. I usually left the room and went in another room until they had their fill. He thought it was cool and let my brother watch them when he was gone at work. This was my nurturer...the one who I thought was my daddy...a safe person who would never leave. Not only did he leave but he became a total perv.
Your friend has my heart on this one. I am sorry this was confusing for her (I bet it was) and I am not saying her dad is a perv or this was sexual in any way. Just sharing what my t. has told me and remember I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!!!!! I am fumbling in the dark so forgive me if I am way out of line. I just wanted to respond to your Q.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 9:44:28
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
Three to four is pretty young, and while she may be remembering correctly, the memories might also have gotten mixed up a bit. She remembers sitting on Dad's lap, she remembers seeing him on the potty with his lap looking a whole lot different, maybe seeing some things she didn't need to see, she might even have asked, in the total unselfconscious way little kids have, to sit on his lap or tried to climb there. She might remember sitting on his lap in the toilet while he was fully clothed at bathtime or when she was sick, and got all the experiences merged together.
In other words, it may have happened and been really inappropriate, or some of it might have happened and been somewhat inappropriate. I don't think I ever let my son see me on the potty, although he may have wandered in by accident. So bringing a three-four year old girl to the bathroom with a man, I think that could be considered somewhat inappropriate. But if nothing else happened, it might not be in her best interests to dwell too much on it.
I have actually recently realized that I have huge issues with my mother and exposure. Not that I think she deliberately did anything deliberately inappropriate, or even inadvertantly inappropriate. We were both female. But she somehow exposed a lot more on the potty than she should have (perhaps after surgery?) and it had a very bad effect on my feelings about female sexuality. It has a big effect on me even today. On the other hand, I recognize that my memories on the subject are distorted. If only because of physical realities - what I remember happening *couldn't* have happened.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that childhood memories aren't accurate. Just that there are some of my memories that are clearly amalgams and I'd hate to see someone lose a supportive relationship with their father over what may not have been problematic behavior.
Posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 14:05:39
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 9:44:28
I completely agree with you on what you said. I just had an interesting class discussion on false memories. My psychology professor said that there are three reasons a person might be having trouble recovering their memories:
1. They remember them, but are too painful to discussed.
2. They are memories that need to be recovered from years of repression.
3. They never happened to begin with (False memory syndrome).
The thing with this girl, is that her dad openly admits he did this. He thinks it was a valid parenting technique, not molestation.
Elle
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 6, 2004, at 14:26:41
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
Elle,
Please accept that taboos are social statements from some distant murky and irrefutable past, usually attemptimg to warn about inevitable dire consequences. The incest taboo and the cannibalism taboos are the most prolific. Concerning cannibalism, Kuru and Creutzfeld/Jakob are human variants of mad cow disease. No such clear message accompanies incest.
Analysts and therapists treat 50% of their female clients for the drama/trauma of their past sexaully messy pasts at the hands of some acquaintance or family member. Very Sad. Lots of denial around incest.
Onward to the point of your story. Not enough info about the incident to be positive. This is an area that men best be very careful with. The horrors on both sides from the emergence of the repressed memory therapy movement makes it clear that chilhood memories are not to be trifled with. Any parent who pushes the envelope is asking for surefire future troubles.
I have teacher friends that are about fed up with the spate of male gym teachers and Catholic priests who are being indicted almost daily. These freinds go out of their way to have extra people and witnesses around so as to head off any bad-grade reprisal assaults by teenage girls. Its become too much work to always be on gauard. So they are looking for some other career.
I'm rambling....
Rod
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 6, 2004, at 14:42:38
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 9:44:28
Posted by DaisyM on March 6, 2004, at 15:06:19
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
As someone who works directly with this age population i would say this was Odd, unnecessary and throws up many red flags. However, the saving grace may be that the dad openly admits it and explains his reasons for it. Many parents do seemingly odd things with their children until you understand their background or motivation. Especially if sexual abuse of children is really far off their radar screen, they would not stop to consider how their behavior might "look" in retrospect.
Like the dad who place his hand just inside his daughter's wasteband. This was a common thing for guys to do when holding onto their girlfriend, "hook" their finger or thumb. IF this became a habit and no one pointed it out, the dad may have just continued it out of comfort. If NOTHING else happened, and the child didn't feel uncomfortable at the time, I wouldn't consider this abuse. (I'm not arguing it was or it wasn't, just using the example).
Just look at spanking. We could classify this as abuse, especially in this day and age. (I hate spanking, just for the record and advocate against it.) But, many of us who were "just" spanked back in the 60s did not consider ourselves abused. If we now relook at this and reclassify our parents as abusers, what does that do to the existing relationships? Not that things shouldn't sometimes be relooked at. It is that some parenting is/was bad parenting, not intential abuse. It is just really complicated.
Posted by KindGirl on March 6, 2004, at 16:00:30
In reply to Re: Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by DaisyM on March 6, 2004, at 15:06:19
Hey I am not defensive OR ANYTHING!!!! BUT......
I am the one whose dad did the underwear thing...it wasn't just a finger...it was full blown hand and it was creepy...definitely invasive even if it wasn't intentions
Posted by DaisyM on March 6, 2004, at 17:04:53
In reply to Re: Question for everyone on odd parenting » DaisyM, posted by KindGirl on March 6, 2004, at 16:00:30
Let me re-emphasize something: If you found it creepy then it was wrong! This is why there is no abuse that is worse than any other...it is how the person it happened to views it, among other things.
did not mean to make you defensive or minimize the incident. Me, of all people...
Posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 19:02:55
In reply to Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 2:44:28
I sit here crying reading all these posts because they hit too close to home. I know I don't have to read them, and I was warned, but they bring up so many things. Red flags everywhere--but these are solely my opinions and experiences and I do not want anyone to think I am generalizing about their experiences. That's what makes all of this so hard.
Sitting on the lap in the bathroom--been there, didn't know why I was there but I was uncomfortable. Had to take a bath w/him too. Just the nakedness given my age was wrong. As a little girl I even knew it was wrong. As a mother, I could never give my kids their baths, but I didn't know why.
Hands in the waistband--that too. It started innocently enough like that but proceeded to become much more threatening and damaging. When I casually mentioned my father had done that, my T just about fell off her chair. I didn't know that was wrong, I had no basis of comparison.
False memories--I've believed in false memories forever, as an excuse not to face what I had to. My memories are all false, false, false and I can't survive any other way.
I will never get over this--or through it. Sorry guys, but to me I'm stuck -- if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, than it's a duck. I feel so bad for all the unprotected children who may never have a normal life.
I shouldn't post this, so please accept my apologies.
antigua
Posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 19:25:56
In reply to Re: Odd parenting-Trigger warning, posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 19:02:55
> I shouldn't post this, so please accept my apologies.
> antiguaI don't see any reason that you shouldn't have posted it. I appreciate your insight. I'm sorry I posted a message that made you cry. I'm thinking I should have put "trigger" on the original starting thread. Next time I will remember to do that.
((((Antigua))))
Elle
Posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 19:33:18
In reply to Re: Odd parenting-Trigger warning » antigua, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 19:25:56
It's not your fault AT ALL. It's me. The bouncing back and forth between what's real and not real has been one of my primary defenses. But it's a coping mechanism that doesn't seem to work anymore. It's a another layer pulled off that makes me even more vulnerable. I feel so trapped.
Please don't feel bad. I just don't know if I have the strength to keep moving on this. I've buried it before but it always comes back worse. And worse.
Maybe it's the full moon,
antigua
Posted by DaisyM on March 6, 2004, at 20:15:18
In reply to Re: Odd parenting-Trigger warning » Elle2021, posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 19:33:18
Spent the last two weeks where you are...coming out of it at last. Please remember what you told me, it cycles. Hang on to your Therapist, she will get you through this. You will get through it...you will!
I also think it was a totally OK post. I worried about mine too. Sometimes stuff is just too close to home. I try to be so fair that I go pretty far to the otherside.
I'm thinking of you. Cyber-hugs.
-D
Posted by noa on March 6, 2004, at 20:41:26
In reply to Re: Question for everyone on odd parenting, posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 6:44:54
It does seem odd to have to be on his lap, and this made me suspicious, but then I thought--what if the memory is based on one instance when she was crying or something and he picked her up to console her? I don't know--it could be something, or might be nothing, hard to tell.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 20:51:58
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on March 6, 2004, at 14:05:39
Well, if her dad admits it, I'm sure it happened. I'd say it was a bit odd, and I wouldn't do it. But if her dad was otherwise fine, and she has a good relationship with him, I still say I wouldn't dwell on it.
Posted by KindGirl on March 6, 2004, at 22:42:38
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 20:51:58
Hey Daisy and antigua...first of all,Daisy, you did not trigger any defense in me. That was me just kind of joking w/myself. Then my hubby walked right by the computer when I was in the middle of my post and I had to send it quickly...sorry to lead you elsewhere or to make you feel bad. I think this is a good thread and I am glad you asked.
Yeah, when I told my T. about this habit of my dad's her mouth dropped. The sad thing for me is those memories are the GOOD ones of my childhood! :(
I am sorry antigua for unneccesary pain...it is so painful to go through this as it is and I am sorry if my mentioning what my dad did caused you more pain. Just know that I am here with you and it seems like we had a similar experience...as lousy as it was, I know there is a strength in the solidarity of what we share and I am here if you want to vent, dump, barf all over the page....get it out.
The more I talk about it, the less horrifying it is and the less of a stronghold it has on me. Of course, it takes tremendous courage to face all of this and to talk about it is so hard and painful...:(......Good for you for posting and I send you warm fuzzies. Keep writing if you can!
Posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 22:56:03
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning, posted by KindGirl on March 6, 2004, at 22:42:38
You didn't cause me pain, just reminded me of the truth. I tend to desensitize or trivialize the truth of the things that happened to me. They're not that important in the long run, but then when I hear things that happen to other people I can see it so much more clearly, that it did happen, it was wrong, and it has had a profound effect.
I still don't really feel. The funny thing is that growing up I always thought I was the most emotional person in the world. Well, I guess I was emotional, but I hid behind the emotions and didn't feel. Does that even make any sense? This week for the first time, and just for a few minutes or so, I recognized the "pain" I experienced and how I covered it up w/shame. Pain is synonomous with feeling and I truly believe that if I reach the anger I will not be able to control it. I have never felt safe enough to let it out--I can't ever imagine feeling that safe.
antigua
Posted by KindGirl on March 6, 2004, at 23:17:18
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning » KindGirl, posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 22:56:03
Antigua,
Thanks for relieving me of the guilt. God this is so hard. I don't know about you, but I always did everything fast...still do a lot...but as a kid I was the first one done, the first one done eating, the first one to finish everything...the faster the better in my eyes.
The hardest thing about recovery is how long it takes.....my t. and I always talk about this and she tells me there is no "right" way to do this....and there is no "right" timing. I need to let whatever happen happen, whether I am numbing out or hysterical...but to let the feelings come whatever they are and to try to stay observant of them and journal or call her....she says that observing the behavior is the first step in recovery and a very important difficult step.She has said it is like our frozen hearts thaw out and the pain comes like a stream or like a raging river rapids...and you are right, the feelings ARE painful. She says this is necessary to let the feelings out because as children we couldn't feel them and the feelings are real and our pain matters.
I hope this helps in some way.....thanks for sharing what you can....thanks for being here!
Posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 23:30:59
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning » antigua, posted by KindGirl on March 6, 2004, at 23:17:18
Yes, I always was the first one finished at everything, anything to get away from my father's consistent anger and sarcasm (which wasn't directed at me, BTW, because he had a different way of dealing with me--I mean, after all, I was "special"--what a bunch of lies he gave me, worse yet I believed him.) My mother used to sit at the dinner table, hidden behind the paper while my father heaped abuse on his kids, one by one. Or she would escape on some fictitious errand and be gone for hours.
I know it takes a long time--I've been working on this consciously since my father died 12 years ago, and I still haven't reached the bottom--or the root of it all. I'm beginning to accept that it may never happen and that this is as good as my life may ever get. (Don't get me wrong, I have a good life and really have no right to complain.) I think I'm really coming to this point. Or, as I've said, I'll bury it again because the pain is too much and it will resurface again in a few years, but it will be so much worse.
I have a wonderful T who says the same things yours does--it takes time, and it only comes out when you're ready to handle it, etc. I think I'll be an old woman or dead by then so it won't really matter.
Geez, I sound pretty pathetic. I'm not usually this bad...
antigua
Posted by KindGirl on March 7, 2004, at 7:24:17
In reply to Re: Question for everyone -Trigger warning » KindGirl, posted by antigua on March 6, 2004, at 23:30:59
You don't sound pathetic at all, even though I say the same things about myself!!! I am trying to be more compassionate w/myself (a new concept for me) and say "wounded" instead of "freak, loser, pathetic" etc....those are my mom's words (she sounds like your dad....except her anger and wrath and wretched meanness were directed at us kids, me esp)....and I don't think you are complaining at all.
I am ticked off right now because I hit some stupid button my computer and lost the 2nd half of this post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway....what it said was I am not going to be judgmental in any way....I have a lifetime's worth of that inside already and I am working on getting rid of the judgment and adding more compassion...first to me and then to others. So share away if you want and thanks for all you have added!
This is the end of the thread.
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