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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Aphrodite on September 17, 2004, at 13:01:33
After my week of quitting, I spent this week in my T's office in tears. The break was quite devasting to me, and I was desperately trying to reconnect to him to little avail. I felt like I had irrevocably broken the bond, was high-maintainence one too many times, and I felt very distant from him though the young girl longed to be close again. "My" time slot that I have had for months is gone. He gave it to someone else when I quit. He said he would try to juggle things to give it back to me, but that hurt so much.
Next week I see him twice. On one day, I will see him and a pdoc for the first time back to back. Then, he informed me that he will be on vacation the following week, and so again he wanted to silence the little girl from all the hard things she came back to share. He was worried about opening up something and then having to leave. "I" understand that, but "she" doesn't and feels like she's been jerked around, abused, and silenced all over again. There is no hope of having her pain eased until October, and that's a very long time for a child.
My younger side doesn't quite trust him anymore, but is nonetheless fearful of him leaving. Corporate me will enjoy the time off from having my heart (and wallet) ripped out and will go out shopping. The child doesn't understand this attitude at all.
Oh, the inner turmoil that comes from having 5 Aphrodites in the car! I hope the pdoc can write a prescription for them to all get along.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 16:42:01
In reply to my ego state war, posted by Aphrodite on September 17, 2004, at 13:01:33
Aphrodite, no one is more at war with themselves than I am, but sometimes it's most productive to work together to make sure that needy you gets enough of what you need to not make trouble for corporate you. This doesn't necessary mean encouraging disclosure when disclosure is untimely, but it might mean presenting alternatives. For example, if he doesn't want the little girl to open up a fresh wave of memories when he won't be here to deal with them, he could gently explain that, and then offer alternatives that would enable the little girl to get nurturing or whatever it is she needs from him in another way. When a trip is imminent, we often spend bonding sessions. Perhaps she could share personal and intimate but low energy items with him. Favorite foods, best trip ever, etc. It's not unlike dealing with a child. Practicality and doing what works is usually your best bet. Find out the desired goal and try to find alternate ways to meet it. You could say something along the lines of"I know you don't want to be silenced, and I don't want to silence you. I just don't want you to be unhappy while the therapist is gone. What sort of things can you share with the therapist that won't leave you unhappy? I want you to be able to spend as much time as possible in session before the therapist goes. How about talking about how much you'll miss him instead?"
It may seem counterintuitive for coroporate you to indulge neediness, but sometimes it's practical and helps you get through a vacation with less distress, fewer distractions, and a greater ability to do work.
Don't be afraid to tell your therapist what you need. I tell mine all the time. He may or may not give it, but it helps him help me.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 17, 2004, at 18:05:02
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 16:42:01
That's a wonderful post, Dinah, and has such a good idea in it- that we don't have to bring up the most painful (and often isolating) things from our childhood ego state(s) when a separation is imminent. My analyst is going to be away for two weeks begining October 2, and I am having such a hard time feeling anything other than that it is a devastating interruption for my *girl*. She can hardly bear to leave his office just now, and has such a hard time feeling that he is still with her when she isn't there. A lot of the time, she's doesn't feel like he's there even when we are right there in the office together. He's very aware of this, and I can see that he wants to help any way he possibly can. He asked if a photo of him would help. I said it definitely would, if it would be OK. He said it would be very OK. I haven't gotten it yet, but I'm sure I will before he leaves. For my particular girl, I guess the most comforting things would be to look out his window at the stream, and imagine wading down the middle of it, perhaps with him showing the way. And to put a little horse and a nice, smart red pig in his office! But she is still so poor at bonding with him, or even trusting him, girl to man. *I*, the grown-up, used to be able to maintain contact better than I seem to be able to just now, but there are things I could try- like talking about music, or places we've both travelled to, or mentioning wildflowers, or possibly even things I've read about psychoanalysis or neuroscience which he will know about. I don't think he ever minds spending a little time talking about things like this, as long as he feels we are working together on the real problems as best we can most of the time. This is a very, very hard time in the analysis for me, but, even so, I''d like to marshall whatever resources I can to make the separation as "OK" as possible. I know it would give me more confidence in myself if I could do that.
Thank you, Dinah. Do you have any other examples of things you do that make you feel more securely attached, and more able to deal with the separations? I have a feeling that the truest answer is that you have spent nine years achieving those things- and that thousands of things, conscious and unconscious, went into it!
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 18:54:36
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 17, 2004, at 18:05:02
I suspect you're right. After only five short years I began to trust him. After only nine short years, I've begun to internalize him. :) He'll be gone for a week (midweek to midweek) next week, and I'm almost looking forward to trying my wings. As long as he comes back. Safely. And resumes being my therapist.
The big thing is that I positively insist that we leave on a good note. One session before a separation, I asked him if I could have an extra session that day if we couldn't get to good footing before the end of the session. The clever man made sure we got to good footing.
I have definitely told him on occasion that I want to spend the session bonding, especially if he notices that I am keeping it superficial. And he usually helps me out.
A big help is our routine. It's silly things, I suppose, but routine helps. Before he leaves he gives me permission to call, but reminds me that he might not be able to call back for a long while. I don't actually (except the one time my best friend died), but it helps to know I can. After a tough session or before a separation, I ask him if everything is going to be ok. Sometimes he challenges me on that, but he finds it most efficient to inject as much calm certainty as possible and answer in the affirmative before a separation. As I walk out the door, even if I'm in a great mood, he always remembers to tell me to call him if I need him. Once or twice he's forgotten, and I turn around and ask him.
Simple and silly routines. But astonishingly reassuring. And something to hold on to. On the other hand, if they aren't done correctly each time they can cause huge distress. I called him once on a routine scheduling matter but while I was upset and asked him if everything was going to be ok. He missed his cue and answered in a businesslike way. I called him back and asked if everything was going to be ok and gave him a litany of my sorrows, and he remembered his lines, injected that calm certainty, and answered reassuringly. Again, it's not unlike a child. Routine is immensely reassuring. Deviation from routine immensely distressing. You should have seen my son when he was little if I said the prayer a bit differently. :)
I know it's a bit late to establish a routine, but maybe that's something to give yourself to think about over the vacation. What sort of routine you would find helpful.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 17, 2004, at 21:20:41
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 18:54:36
Very good ideas, Dinah. I think a little more structure that I can rely on will help the girl in me a lot. I'm not exactly sure whether it's welcome or possible in analysis or not. I think maybe I'm supposed to go with the flow of my mind- conscious and unconscious. I don't know, really.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 21:48:40
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 17, 2004, at 21:20:41
Hmmm... Maybe I wouldn't be able to replace my therapist with yours after all. I'm not sure I could tolerate that level of frustration.
I get inordinately distressed without those little rituals, and on one sadly memorable occasion stomped my not so little feet while chanting nononononononono with my hands over my ears until being told that yes, everything was going to be ok. A spectacle that I can only be happy to have not actually seen. My poor therapist. But I can picture it well enough to curl up in shame.
Posted by daisym on September 18, 2004, at 0:46:17
In reply to my ego state war, posted by Aphrodite on September 17, 2004, at 13:01:33
Gosh Aphrodite, I don't know what to say. I would be devastated too if my Therapist had given away my spot so quickly. It does seem that it is going to take some work on both your parts to get back to a place where there is more trust.
When I get to a place like this, I spend a lot of time working on the process and wondering (lamenting) about how hard it is for me to trust him. We don't talk about issues or history...and sometimes I apologize for this. My therapist will tell me "this IS the work" building trust and taking care of our relationship. Here's the other thing...I tend to increase my sessions when I feel this. Mostly because I HATE feeling disconnected from him. And I will ask for "permission" to be more needy, or to avoid certain stressors. We do this dance of me expressing the war between my two halfs and he will interpret both sides for the other and then usually ask me what is the worse thing that would happen if I let myself trust him. I've told him all the "worst" things. But it was a really good way to get past some of the more "pride" issues that were holding me back.
I'm sorry she has to wait. I would suggest that you let her write him a letter while he is gone and tell as much as she can in the letter. That way she doesn't have to hold it in for such a long time. And I would let her tell your therapist how much she is going to miss him. I know that will be hard for you but it will give your theraist the opportunity to reassure her (and you) that he will be back and you WILL continue to work together.
Just let her talk about what she needs. I know (really, really, I know) how hard that will be.
Hang in there. You will reform the bond and then test it and test it and test it. It is part of the process.
Posted by daisym on September 18, 2004, at 1:12:52
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 17, 2004, at 18:05:02
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. It is amazing how when we know our therapists are leaving we go into these deep places and really need them. I asked myself if I was in some way trying to "prove" to him that I needed for him to come back. And then I'd spent the other half of the time trying not to need him too much, so he would want to come back.
What worked for me, as much as anything did, was his voice mail. And I suspect, since you hear him with all parts of you, this might be helpful for you. It was soothing to hear him laugh a little at the beginning of the message, teasing me about something that he often does, and then having him state that while he would enjoy himself, he would be back. And then he reminded me of the strategies we had talked about using when I missed him. This went really well with the picture. Can you ask him to do this for you too?
And I wrote down my feelings part of the time. That got hard for me because writing opens me up, so not writing was a way to close it down.
By talking about it a lot before he left, he gave me "permission" to miss him and to feel sad and lost. He didn't say "buck up and get over it." He said, "I know we are in the middle of all of this and I'm leaving. You have every reason to be upset." This was very validating. And when he came back, we talked about the fact the my younger-self was mad at him. He really got how hard it was for me. Your therapist gets this too. He will help you get ready. You could also take your digital camera and take a picture looking out his window.
The most amazing thing? This break was one of the most bonding experiences we've had. Because of how he handled it and the fact that he did come back. It made my youngerself trust him in a way that nothing else probably could.
And posting a lot here helped. We care about you and will help you through this.
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by Aphrodite on September 18, 2004, at 1:21:47
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 16:42:01
What wonderful words of wisdom! (I love alliteration!) Your post got me thinking about bonding, and I think that instead of me sharing low energy bonding things, I'll ask him to do so. Maybe I need to hear more about him in order to reconnect. He is always very open to sharing, and I love it when therapy can be more of a two way street. I would not have thought of this as a way to prepare for a break without your post. Thanks so much!
Posted by Aphrodite on September 18, 2004, at 1:25:57
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 17, 2004, at 18:05:02
It seems as if we will soon be in the same boat. I'm glad you shared your experience of telling him how difficult the separation will be at this point of your work. I have not done that yet; I have behaved very matter-of-factly about it as if it did not concern me in the slightest. I just can't shake that facade of wanting to be completely "together." Old habits die hard. As you get closer to your separation, let me know how it goes. I plan to tell my T Monday what I am sure he already knows about the fears of the younger sides of me.
Posted by Aphrodite on September 18, 2004, at 1:32:59
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on September 18, 2004, at 0:46:17
Yes, giving away my spot cut like a knife, but I deserved it. I've quit 3 times and say that I want to quit more times than I can remember. Not counting on me coming back is a sound business decision on his part as I was sitting on a coveted time slot. Don't blame him a bit.
It will be hard to admit the weakness of not being able to get through one teeny little week, but I plan to do so. I don't have much to lose. And then I will be embarrassed. And then I will worry that I've made him feel bad about his vacation. And then I will build up the defenses again. And then he will have to tear them all down again. And then the little girl will be honest once more. And then I will feel guilty . . . OK, you know the cycle.
So, what did you do to get through the vacation? I plan to catch up on reading and shop at the bookstore. Luckily, my favorite bookstore is next to the best shoe store in the tri county area.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 8:38:10
In reply to Re: my ego state war » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on September 18, 2004, at 1:32:59
Well, of *course* you don't blame him a bit for doing the sensible business thing. :) But do *you*? I've found it's less trouble for me if I admit being irrationally angry to my therapist, even if I preface it with lots of "I of course understand rationally why you ####, but I still find myself feeling xxxx" And my therapist has found it's less trouble for him if he doesn't answer by justifying his actions logically, but by addressing the feelings of xxxx.
Unless of course, you genuinely don't feel any anger at any level.
I think that's a great idea about asking him to share. I left that out of my account, but once my therapist either intuits or is told that a particular session is devoted to bonding, that usually happens. I open an innocuous topic and he also discloses a bit. My therapist has rather firm boundaries but isn't opposed to innocuous self disclosure. And if he tries to make a point or two along the way, I'm tolerant. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 22:26:01
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 18, 2004, at 1:12:52
Thank you both so much for your understanding and support. It took a little while to sink in, but it did, finally- now I feel much better. The weekends, too, give me a little time off from the incredible intensity of daily analysis, and that helps, too. I didn't have nearly as interesting a weekend as you did, though, Daisy! My analyst works with an art therapist quite a lot with patients who have csa and complex PTSD- and dissociation. He wants me to do it, too, only he feels that we need a more steady secure attachment first- sometimes it's really solid, but often it isn't. But, anyway, thanks an awful lot, guys!
Posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 11:50:43
In reply to Daisy and Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 22:26:01
Thank you for *your* support!
I have complex PTSD and not much in the way of literal dissociation with its loss of time, etc., but as you know I have the conflicting ego states that I am fully aware of. They have such different goals, thoughts, beliefs, etc. that I feel like I swim in chaos.
I am interested in what you said about secure attachments. I struggle with this as well. Only the very young part of me has the ability (or even the desire) to attach. The withdrawn young teenager is the most hurt, and she can't even speak. If you're willing to discuss it, what part of you lacks attachment? Do you think it's important for your adult part to attach, or do you think the healing needs to be that the younger parts have someone secure and safe and to be "reparented" in essence?
I think I have a huge problem trusting anyone, and it's particularly frightening to trust someone who knows so much about you and could hurt you so much.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Pfinstegg, posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 11:50:43
As it happened, this was the main topic of my session today! I am struggling with exactly the same things you are- no lost time, and nothing unusual apparent to onlookers- just an *infant*or very young child up to about 3, and a *girl* from about 5 to 11, The adolescent and adult are pretty much the same. The part that has a VERY difficult time trusting or feeling any attachment is the *girl*. She was the one who was abused, physically and sexually. My analyst has such an encouraging view of the whole question of attachment. He said that he felt that *I* (the adult) have a lot of trust and attachment, but, right now, because of the work we are doing, the *girl* is much more present. When I bemoaned how detached and lonely *she* feels, he said it was more than understandable. *She* is trying to trust him, but feels that, if she really lets her guard down, he might turn on her and molest or rape her. He also said, "look how much pain she is willing to go through to try to get attached." I said that it seemed like "everyone else" (i.e. Babblers) have secure attachments, and I feel so bad to have such a struggle with it. He said he thought that genuine attachment, of all the parts, is a RESULT of therapy- it's not something a person with an ego state disorder is able to have at the beginning. What he said really seemed so right to me. What do you think?
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:26:18
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
I think it makes perfect sense. When I say I'm securely attached (relatively at least) recall that I've been in therapy nine years, and had intense attachment from my emotional self, no attachment from my rational self, and no trust from either side for at least five of those years.
The really secure trusting attachment is so new that you can probably see the difference between when we started conversing and now. And it's *still* only on the part of my emotional self. My rational self now has a fair but not enormous degree of trust but not much attachment.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:46:53
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:26:18
What you just wrote is the best news in the world- terrific (and so well-earned) for you, and so encouraging for people like me. I have noticed a gradual, but enormous change in how you post about your therapy- with especially big changes in the last six months or so. I didn't want to say so, because I thought your thoroughbred horse might rear up and insist that it wasn't true!
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:52:15
In reply to Re: Dinah's (earned secure) attachment » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:46:53
Naw, it's true. And I sort of like that it's noticeable.
And boy did I work hard to earn it!! (So did he of course.)
Posted by gardenergirl on September 20, 2004, at 13:27:27
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
I just wanted to pop in and say what your analyst said about attachments forming via therapy makes a great deal of sense to me. I think it's part of the corrective emotional experience.
I think my attachment to my T is the first truly secure one I've had. Or perhaps the most important...others have been secure but less significant people in my life? Hmmm need to think about this some more...
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 14:43:11
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
Have your T send me a bill! That really helped. At this point in my therapy, it doesn't seem possible for any of "us" to be attached, but I have to give myself credit for trying. The problem is that after each session, there is some sort of let down because not all the parts can have their say, so part of me always leaves disappointed. And then there is this cynical adult who self-berates after each session so the younger parts get abused all over again. My T is doing some great visualizations to help protect the younger parts from the adult me in which he is there to protect and advocate for the little girl.
I think he enjoys it a bit too much since he's not very fond of my cynical, critical side and likes the excuse to fight with her;)
Sometimes I hesitate as I write about this because it all sounds so *strange*. But it certainly gives a sound reason and a vocabulary to what was once just overwhelming turmoil in my head as all the sides clammored to get their way.
Still, I am easily discouraged, and my T will be gone next week. Waaaahhhh!!!!
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 16:44:46
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Pfinstegg, posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 14:43:11
Nothing you have said sounds strange to me! I've also been learning that part of having an ego state disorder is that the different parts of us really do resent the other parts, and get very angry if they don't have as much time with the T as they want, or if they feel that their feelings aren't validated. The adult me sometimes feels that the younger parts are ruining her life. One time I practically shouted at my T, "get RID of her!" (meaning the abused girl). My T constantly reminds me to be kind to the younger parts- to try to nurture them and understand their pain and terror. When I remember to do that, I do feel quite a bit calmer. Strangely, even after all this time, it's not at all natural or automatic to do that.
One thing continues to amaze me: how do these Ts DO it? It must be so hard for them to know who is talking at a given moment, and each part needs something different said to her. I really admire their tremendous patience, and the skills they have.
Posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 20:21:29
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 16:44:46
I came home to the rest of this thread and it makes me weep. Today was just so awful. Last week my 12 year old self really tested my therapist and he past with flying colors for her. But the adult is angry about the risk she took in therapy...what if he had gotten angry or upset about what she was asking? I really did feel like she put him on the spot.
So I was depressed last night. I woke up flat, no energy. And as I got closer to therapy today, I got more anxious and more frightened about what he would say about last Thursday. I took in some of my artwork so we would at least have that to talk about.
He noted the anxiety the minute I walked in and we never did get to the artwork. We worked all the way around to me admitting how angry I was about the risk she took without my permission. And then it got all muddled up. He basically said it didn't feel like such a big risk to him (not the words he used) but as he talked I felt completely slapped. I don't know how to word this, it was like I was confronted with "you are just another client." I was completely crushed. He saw that I was, and we tried to talk about it the last 10 minutes. And I tried to be honest about why I felt crushed but my pride got in the way some. He tried to rephrase and argued with me that I heard something different from what he said.
But it doesn't really matter. I probably needed this wake up call anyway, in fact I started the session today with how hard it is to channel the energy to live my life. I called 15 minutes after I got home and said I was taking the rest of the week off from therapy. I needed some perspective.
I'm not sure who is upset and has severed the attachment -- the teen or the adult. Again, it doesn't matter. The reality is...I AM ONLY one of many clients and it is MORE important to me than to him. It is after all MY life.
So now, even though I feel wounded, I half hope he'll call and talk me out of canceling and half hope I don't hear from him because I don't know how stong I am. Mostly I just feel stupid for having such a strong reaction. I'm open to thinking that this might be another defense against letting the teen talk.
Again, it doesn't really matter.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 20:51:45
In reply to Severed attachment, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 20:21:29
Oh, Daisy, I've never seen you post such a hopeless message. It makes me so sad that you cancelled your sessions- could you reconsider? And you have one of the best therapists ever- surely you and he can find a good way to get reconnected. I have to admit that I didn't really understand what went wrong, exactly, but this connection is much too important to ever be severed, even for a day.
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 21:02:59
In reply to Severed attachment, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 20:21:29
A good relationship with a good person can withstand the tests and bruises. My therapist has taught me that. I may get hurt. I may get angry. But I know we'll make it through any hurt and any anger. You can too.
Posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 22:18:18
In reply to Re: Severed attachment » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 20:51:45
I'm sorry I sounded hopeless and that it was all muddled. I'm not very clear on what happened, why this feeling was triggered to strongly. I know intellectually that I am indeed, "just a client." Really, I do know that.
But somehow when I FELT that...it hurt tremendously. And I don't think it was anything he said but more the realization that I had worried about something that he hadn't given a second thought.
He called a little while ago and asked me if I would reconsider taking the week off. I said only if I could come in tomorrow to see if we could figure this out. I don't want to walk around wounded (more than usual) for two more days. (I know, no logic here - tomorrow or a week from now????) He said he doesn't want to wait a week to try to repair what happened. So I'm going in tomorrow afternoon. I still can't verbalize very well what happened. I know why I feel hurt and I recognize what the hurt is. I just don't know why I reacted this way to whatever he said.
I talked to GG, Dinah and Falls in Open. GG thinks something was triggered in the phrasing. This is entirely possible. It might also be that the adult was entirely too honest about her fears and this is the panic response. I keep trying to journal it out.
The good thing is that I did tell him on the phone that I didn't "think" cancelling was a way to punish him or make him chase me. He said he knew that. That he could feel me curling up around the hurt and away from him. But he didn't want me to pull away and pull back inside. That in relationships people sometimes hurt each other and we will just work through it.
I just hope I can talk and not cry the whole time.
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