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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 18:45:45
It came up again, since I had yet another nightmare about the whole agency from hell experience. I have them periodically, much more frequently than I am comfortable admitting even to my T. It came at a time my depression was much worse, and my anxiety sky high, etc. You know, the time when you least need, but are most likely to have nightmares?
Anyway, today in therapy, I brought this up, including how profoundly ashamed I am that I'm still not over it all. So much so that I apparently didn't let her know that it is there all the time, still. We talked a little about that, although it's still my fault, but I realized something about it despite being, you know, insane: Part of the reason this is so damaging to me is that my self image cannot handle the concept that I really was so powerless that I couldn't have done anything at all to protect myself. Even if it means that I have to blame myself for bad events, it's still easier than admitting I had no control at all.
Funny thing, is that I feel helpless so often, but every time I do, I have to do that whole, 'but that's only a feeling -- you aren't *really* helpless, you're just [insert negative attribute here]' thing. Actually being helpless, though? When my T was trying to tell me that I had been completely powerless, that someone else had victimized me while I was vulnerable, I tried that on and got sick. I nearly was sick in her office, it was so powerful.
I'm not liking life right now, and I'm dreading our trip to the marriage counselor, where we're going about the time I finish typing this. Then again, I'm dreading most all of life anyway, so there's nothing particularly special about this...
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 18:59:13
In reply to Back to victimization..., posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 18:45:45
> Actually being helpless, though?
I have an instinctive response for you to consider. You have indeed isolated the aspect of this experience, and its re-experiencing, that is so hard to accept. I would suggest rephrasing it. It's more than semantics.
Option: You were not permitted an opportunity to exercise your right to choose.
Option: Your choose was expressed, but it was not listened to.
I don't know your truth, your true experience, so I don't know how to help you fit the words right. I think there is a way to say it. You just haven't found it, yet.
Lar
P.S. I LOVE the word yet. It changes *everything*.
Posted by sleepygirl on May 24, 2006, at 20:13:50
In reply to Back to victimization..., posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 18:45:45
Hey Racer,
I am acquainted personally with the experience of being in a terribly vulnerable position emotionally, and being maltreated by just those people that I hoped could help. Words can't express how badly that made me feel about myself. Like an open wound that was jabbed at, like a confirmation of all that I feared about myself to be true...
that in itself was traumatic, really shakes one's sense of safety, hope, trust, etc., etc.
I'm sorry it happened to you
keep talking :-)
Posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 21:57:13
In reply to Re: Back to victimization... » Racer, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 18:59:13
> > Actually being helpless, though?
>
> I have an instinctive response for you to consider. You have indeed isolated the aspect of this experience, and its re-experiencing, that is so hard to accept. I would suggest rephrasing it. It's more than semantics.I agree absolutely. I've even written that on this board to others who do the same thing: "Don't look at is as 'I was victimized,' but as 'someone did something bad TO ME.'" It's absolutely true, that the way you express it can change the way you experience it.
On the other hand, every time I try to get there on these things, I immediately go into, "but it's my fault" mode. I'm obviously "trying to avoid taking responsibility for myself," or "trying to blame someone else for what I brought on myself," etc. (And I'll bet those sorts of things resonate wiht a lot of people, right?)
I don't know. I think just having the insight that I really can't stand to think that I didn't have any power in that situation was enough for today. Next week, after finals, I can go back to trying to face up to having been powerless.
>
> Option: Your choose was expressed, but it was not listened to.This one is actually kinda triggering for me, because the next place I go with it is, "But what's wrong with me that I can't make myself heard? What am I doing wrong? I try so hard, but I don't know how, and it's because there's something fundamentally wrong with me." And, actually, it goes downhill from there.
> Lar
>
> P.S. I LOVE the word yet. It changes *everything*.:-) Thank you, Larry.
Posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 22:02:47
In reply to Re: Back to victimization... » Racer, posted by sleepygirl on May 24, 2006, at 20:13:50
>
> I am acquainted personally with the experience of being in a terribly vulnerable position emotionally, and being maltreated by just those people that I hoped could help. Words can't express how badly that made me feel about myself. Like an open wound that was jabbed at, like a confirmation of all that I feared about myself to be true...That's it, I think -- that I'm so afraid it was really confirmation that I really am as hideous and horrible and worthless as I know I am. That's part of why this won't go away for me, I think. These people kept TELLING me that I was that bad and worse. Though they called themselves Mental Health Professionals, they were really Mental Illness Professionals. They were so focussed on me being Mentally Ill, that they couldn't see anything else.
Honest to any higher power you care to name -- on the day of my first appointment at that agency, I was nearly stable on drugs, and thinking I was nearly ready to go back to working, and living, and muddling through. Within three months, I couldn't leave the house.
And three years on, I am still not back to where I was at that first appointment.
And writing that triggered the "you're trying to blame someone else when it was really your own fault, because you're incapable of the honesty required to face up to your responsibilities" chorus.
>
> that in itself was traumatic, really shakes one's sense of safety, hope, trust, etc., etc.
>
> I'm sorry it happened to you
> keep talking :-)Thank you. I"m sorry you know about it first hand.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 22:19:22
In reply to Re: Back to victimization... » Larry Hoover, posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 21:57:13
> On the other hand, every time I try to get there on these things, I immediately go into, "but it's my fault" mode. I'm obviously "trying to avoid taking responsibility for myself," or "trying to blame someone else for what I brought on myself," etc.
Whose voice do you hear? Who is saying that to you? That identity, whoever it is, is part of the problem. You internalized a voice not your own.
> (And I'll bet those sorts of things resonate wiht a lot of people, right?)
Uh-huh.
> I don't know. I think just having the insight that I really can't stand to think that I didn't have any power in that situation was enough for today. Next week, after finals, I can go back to trying to face up to having been powerless.
Fair enough. Bite off life in bites that can be chewed. It's choking that got us, in the first place.
> > P.S. I LOVE the word yet. It changes *everything*.
>
> :-) Thank you, Larry.You're most welcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 22:24:12
In reply to Re: Back to victimization... » sleepygirl, posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 22:02:47
> These people kept TELLING me that I was that bad and worse. Though they called themselves Mental Health Professionals, they were really Mental Illness Professionals.
What people? There is obviously some part of your story that I've missed.
> And writing that triggered the "you're trying to blame someone else when it was really your own fault, because you're incapable of the honesty required to face up to your responsibilities" chorus.
Mental health professionals said that to you? Dear Lord. Save us from this "help".
I always thought there was something of your experience I hadn't grasped, some key piece. I think I just heard what it was.
I'm so sorry. So very sorry.
Lar
Posted by sleepygirl on May 24, 2006, at 22:40:37
In reply to Re: Back to victimization... » sleepygirl, posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 22:02:47
I have lots of theories on what people can or cannot understand, and how clueless they might be sometimes. I am always questioning my judgment, and I still can't be sure of much of anything.
This is a rough topic for me, and I've never been able to really shake the feeling of being horribly, terribly flawed- and not only THAT though, but being also simultaneously responsible for it!Crazy isn't it? to lose sight of the problems, but instead attack the person
like there's some switch that goes off...
...people are complicated to be sure, and they adapt to their experiences, not always well, they make choices for better or worse, and without real intent - just doing the best they can - I think it was pseudoname who brought that topic up a while back - the concept that people are always doing the best they can, and it made me feel a little better for a second.... like I wasn't so bad
....and it's hard to know which way is up and which way is down when everything's been tossy turvy, and then someone might yell at you anyway 'cause Why don't you know which way is up??!!! (insert some type of blame here)people lose compassion, perhaps to be less able to know that they themselves are vulnerable, fragile, etc.
I'm not sure what my point is, but it can really mess with your head, the way some people are. I'm not clear on this topic at all, but I have a lot of feelings about it anyway.....
.....here's to trying to feel "OK"
'cause you're awesome :-)
Posted by B2chica on May 25, 2006, at 10:37:47
In reply to Back to victimization..., posted by Racer on May 24, 2006, at 18:45:45
>>Actually being helpless, though? When my T was trying to tell me that I had been completely powerless, that someone else had victimized me while I was vulnerable, I tried that on and got sick. I nearly was sick in her office, it was so powerful.
the thought of this makes me sick as well.
this is a very hard thread to comment too. so much i understand. so much i feel similar to you. so much it hurts, so much denial, so much hate...to me.>> "Don't look at is as 'I was victimized,' but as 'someone did something bad TO ME.
-its taken me a while to even say this to put the blame on someone else instead of me. i understand the 'its my fault mode. the " i'm blaming someone else for what i brought on myself". Larry i hear those same voices. i hear abuser 1 and 2 voices, my 'mother's' voice and my own.
stomachs queasy now.
i get angry just thinking about this because it happened many times and i think that i was given that many times to 'get away', to stop it, but i didn't. therefore, i must have liked it, wanted it, therefore nothing Bad did happen....
see how i rationalize?Racer, i'm so sorry your going for 'help' has made your life more difficult.
but dear one i know you are strong. you Are a survivor.b2c
Posted by Racer on May 25, 2006, at 12:51:51
In reply to Re: Back to victimization... » Racer, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 22:24:12
> > These people kept TELLING me that I was that bad and worse. Though they called themselves Mental Health Professionals, they were really Mental Illness Professionals.
>
> What people? There is obviously some part of your story that I've missed.
>
> I always thought there was something of your experience I hadn't grasped, some key piece. I think I just heard what it was.
>Heheheh... Guess I forget that other people may not have read those threads from when it was going on. If I have time after my finals, I'll check back through the archives and sent you links to a few of the relevant posts. At least it will sustain your blood pressure, I suspect...
This is the end of the thread.
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