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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 17:56:12
I think I'm in some kind of a bizarre dream.
I had a hint last week when he wanted to schedule a standing appointment going through the fall. He wanted to do the same today, and when I said that we'd already scheduled our last session, he was surprised. At first he said that wasn't how he understood things, but as we continued to talk, it became apparent that he really wasn't remembering. And he said if he'd known, he'd have "done something different." I don't know what that means. And have I missed out on something that he would have done? Ack.
It's so strange. I can understand "on paper" different explanations for it, and I tried to just go forward. But I feel like this whole important part of my therapy experience is now just sort of "poofed". Gone. At a minimum, I don't feel like I have a shared experience of those sessions and discussions anymore. That feels really lonely and strange. A loss.
So at this point, I don't know when I'm terminating. He told me that even if I'm not considered a student in the fall as far as the registrar's office, that didn't mean that therapy was just cut off. That's a relief, because I have this family thing that's up in the air and is likely to interfere with my next session after his vacation, which I thought was likely going to be my last. In fact, I worried that today would be the last if I couldn't make that August appt. Apparently he wondered why I'd say that.
It's so weird, it's hard to know what I feel or think about it. A silver lining to this, though, or maybe golden...one possible explanation he gave was that it wasn't just ME terminating. It's WE. And while he tries to deal with his reactions outside of therapy, it could be having an effect. That was a nice moment amidst the bizarre.
Someone wake me up, please.
gg
Posted by annierose on July 25, 2007, at 18:52:19
In reply to What to do when T forgets you're terminating??!!?!, posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 17:56:12
I haven't thought through your post yet - so bare with me.
My first reaction is "a golden opportunity". He clearly doesn't want you to leave just yet. And he is saying, "you can stay and continue to work with me if you would like." I hear you saying, "I'm not so sure. I have spent some time worrying about termination and have mentally planned for it so I don't know if I am ready to continue."
Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too. Maybe you can say, "Let's see how I feel at the end of August."
I also hear you shouting, "HELLO - HOW COULD YOU FORGET ABOUT OUR TERMINATION DATE?" I hear that most of all. That he forgot is hurtful. I understand that. I would be hurt too.
Sorry if I'm not making any sense. Maybe I'll think more on it and write later.
Posted by Dinah on July 25, 2007, at 19:07:02
In reply to What to do when T forgets you're terminating??!!?!, posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 17:56:12
He's shown ambivalence over losing you before hasn't he? Or shown that it will be a loss for him as well as for you?
My guess is that he's pushed it out of his mind because he didn't want to think about it.
(And I congratulate you on your restraint because my therapist would not possibly be able to forget if I was terminating as I'd be driving him crazy by incessantly discussing it.)
Posted by slugdoo on July 25, 2007, at 20:14:55
In reply to What to do when T forgets you're terminating??!!?!, posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 17:56:12
And he said if he'd known, he'd have "done something different." >
> It's so weird, it's hard to know what I feel or think about it. A silver lining to this, though, or maybe golden...one possible explanation he gave was that it wasn't just ME terminating. It's WE. And while he tries to deal with his reactions outside of therapy, it could be having an effect. That was a nice moment amidst the bizarre.
>
I think that was a very sweet moment and it tells how much he enjoyed working with you and how much he is probably going to miss you.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 22:33:51
In reply to Re: What to do when T forgets you're terminating??!!?! » gardenergirl, posted by annierose on July 25, 2007, at 18:52:19
I think you make a lot of sense. You "got" what I was saying, and heck, I'm confused about it still. I think I'm sort of still in denial that it really happened, and that's what's making it hard to process.
I need that Yahoo emoticon where the smilie looks like it's tearing out hear and is shaking his head really hard. That's about how I feel.
sigh
Thanks,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 22:37:56
In reply to Re: What to do when T forgets you're terminating?? » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on July 25, 2007, at 19:07:02
> He's shown ambivalence over losing you before hasn't he? Or shown that it will be a loss for him as well as for you?
>
> My guess is that he's pushed it out of his mind because he didn't want to think about it.That seems close to what he finally said. He's not really big on admitting mistakes, though. It took him awhile to move away from saying that he understood things differently to he didn't remember what I did. So when he said that, it was offered as a very tentative, very noncommittal idea. The only one, though. :)
>
> (And I congratulate you on your restraint because my therapist would not possibly be able to forget if I was terminating as I'd be driving him crazy by incessantly discussing it.)Thanks. It's funny though, because I feel like it's all I've been talking about lately. Everything seemed to come down to termination when I would get to the bottom. And all those termination tangents are pretty important to me, too.
Still shaking my head...
Thanks
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 22:38:35
In reply to Re: What to do when T forgets you're terminating??!!?!, posted by slugdoo on July 25, 2007, at 20:14:55
Yeah, that part felt really good.
Thanks
gg
Posted by Honore on July 26, 2007, at 11:03:10
In reply to What to do when T forgets you're terminating??!!?!, posted by gardenergirl on July 25, 2007, at 17:56:12
I can't believe that he pushed it out of his mind. Termination is too important-- for someone (someone with all his faculties) to push it so far out of his mind that he doesn't know it was discussed, when it was discussed so concretely.
You had the initial discussion and all these other discussions where it was the subject, either implicit or explicit. It's not possible for him to have sort of suppressed it to that degree. Maybe he lost it temporarily with all the pressure he was under in his life, or you and he just were never on the same page about whether you were doing it-- or were only discussing it, and not actually deciding that it was happening.
One thing I'm guessing is that, part of you wants to terminate-- I'm not sure why, maybe just so as not to feel weak and needy-- but a deeper you never ready felt ready to-- and maybe you leaped to certain conclusions to protect yourself. Maybe you felt constrained to do it-- to be ready, because the term was up, and you might not be a student and the answer to whether you could continue might be "no"-- which might destroy your good feelings about his caring, and therefore was too dangerous to ask about.
I think he doesn't think you're ready to terminate either--or put another way, he's not ready to, for sure-- whether for your needs or his, or both.
But I can't believe he just pushed it out of his mind in some everyday sort of way. But that idea is scary-- because it would tend to make me seriously question whether he was losing it-- which would be terrible.
But I can't help but wonder (as wild speculation) if something related to the surgery (or something else) was happening that day or week that you discussed it-- and he got overwhelmed and simply couldn't keep mental hold over yet another overwhelming idea, ie your terminating when you and he were't ready. So he may have felt vaguely that there was a more hypothetical discussion-- or not even that-- and has thought all the talk about termination was hypothetical. I don't know-- but somehow it seems more traumatic than normal to completely forget something so important.
It is lonely to possess that kind of knowledge--or idea--one that he can never really dispel, or explain away, except by admitting something that is also frightening (that he may not have been himself for a time)-- when you depend on him to be sane and knowing about you and about himself and about life. It's a great burden to be left with that-- to be the alone with that experience of him.
But at least you don't have to terminate-- which I think is really greatly to the good. After all, you said it didn't seem real-- you hadn't felt as though you were. Maybe that feeling was more real and on point than you knew.
It might be something you just have to push to the periphery-- if he seems okay-- but maybe, too, it's important to go into it more-- to get further to the bottom of what happened, really--if only to be less alone with the knowledge.
Honore
Posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2007, at 12:46:27
In reply to Re: What to do when T forgets you're terminating??, posted by Honore on July 26, 2007, at 11:03:10
> I can't believe that he pushed it out of his mind. Termination is too important-- for someone (someone with all his faculties) to push it so far out of his mind that he doesn't know it was discussed, when it was discussed so concretely.
Yeah, that's what's got me feeling like everything has turned upside down or something. It's really really confusing because it just doesn't make sense.
>
> You had the initial discussion and all these other discussions where it was the subject, either implicit or explicit. It's not possible for him to have sort of suppressed it to that degree. Maybe he lost it temporarily with all the pressure he was under in his life, or you and he just were never on the same page about whether you were doing it-- or were only discussing it, and not actually deciding that it was happening.I suppose it could be an anesthesia-related thing. Or if he was taking pain meds prior to the surgery. But still, it was many conversations, so chances that he was not 100% enough to "get it" each time seem slim. But maybe he wondered a bit about my termination talk and didn't follow up with explicit questions. I just know that back in May or early June I told him that mid to late August was the right time, both clinically and logistically. He agreed. It felt right then; I felt really confident. But then I tend to regress and get depressed and such. It happened last time we set a date. That first time, that got changed when I changed pdocs, was the last termination date discussion he remembers. So it's as if everything that followed somehow didn't mean, at least to him, what it meant to me. I guess. It just feels so weird and confusing and I don't quite know the word. Like realizing you've been standing on a balance beam all along instead of a nice solid floor, maybe. Or that you're really "crazy" after all if how you experienced all that time is so different from his experience, and of course "he must be right, being the authority". (I don't really rationally believe all of this. They are just streams of worries and thoughts in trying to understand all of this.
>
> One thing I'm guessing is that, part of you wants to terminate-- I'm not sure why, maybe just so as not to feel weak and needy-- but a deeper you never ready felt ready to-- and maybe you leaped to certain conclusions to protect yourself. Maybe you felt constrained to do it-- to be ready, because the term was up, and you might not be a student and the answer to whether you could continue might be "no"-- which might destroy your good feelings about his caring, and therefore was too dangerous to ask about.I think that's worth considering. It never occurred to me to ask about continuing even if I were not a student. I guess that's partly why I decided that was a good time to terminate. Planning for it would allow me to be ready if it "needed" to happen for practical reasons.
But I did feel really good and rather confident at the time I made the decision. It's still scary, and sometimes I'd feel more scared than confident, but it felt right in my gut. And at the time, there was plenty of time to do it "right". Though I feel like I don't know how to do it, but he always said, "You ARE doing it." So much of what I talked about seemed to have termination and separation at the heart of it, even if I didn't realize at first. That's partly what I meant when I said some time ago that it didn't feel real and I was probably suppressing all the emotions about it. The primary knowledge of termination and the accompanying grief was in the background, not the foreground most of the time.
But then I started feeling much less secure when he told me about being off for 4 weeks for his surgery and then another 2 for vacation. (Dear God, why vacation right now? I can't even talk to him about this more until he comes back in August. Bah!) That felt like the rug was being pulled out from under me, sort of like I feel right now. I'm just still sitting back on my rear and propped on my elbows wondering what just happened and what to do next. I hope I don't stay like that for the next two weeks, sigh.
>
> I think he doesn't think you're ready to terminate either--or put another way, he's not ready to, for sure-- whether for your needs or his, or both.I should ask him this, the ready to terminate thing. He thought so in May when I brought it up. And we did talk about his view versus mine to some length because the last time I'd suggested a date (regarding the first, "almost" termination), he added two or three months to it, which felt kind of crappy. We talked about that explicitly before I brought up another date, and he explicitly agreed. Now that doesn't mean his view hasn't shifted, but he's not said anything about it.
>
> But I can't believe he just pushed it out of his mind in some everyday sort of way. But that idea is scary-- because it would tend to make me seriously question whether he was losing it-- which would be terrible.Yes. I've worked with an older psychologist who I believe WAS losing it, unfortunately, and it tends to give the same kind of "What the heck just happened here, and what do I do about it?" feeling. This feels different from that, but it does remind me of how difficult that whole time was. It can be sort of crazy-making. And I can see that it might be very upsetting for him, and he's likely questioning his own memory and understanding of sessions over the last couple of months. That can make you crazy. The two of us just need to talk more about it, though I'll feel tentative about that, because he clearly was directly me away from the misunderstanding, which makes me wonder.
> It is lonely to possess that kind of knowledge--or idea--one that he can never really dispel, or explain away, except by admitting something that is also frightening (that he may not have been himself for a time)-- when you depend on him to be sane and knowing about you and about himself and about life. It's a great burden to be left with that-- to be the alone with that experience of him.
>Thank you. You put that very well, and it helped me clarify what some of this heightened emotion is.
> But at least you don't have to terminate-- which I think is really greatly to the good. After all, you said it didn't seem real-- you hadn't felt as though you were. Maybe that feeling was more real and on point than you knew.
It's hard for me to get a handle on exploring that now. Everything feels all jumbled up and unclear. But perhaps if I make a point to ask myself more often how I'm feeling about it...?
>
> It might be something you just have to push to the periphery-- if he seems okay-- but maybe, too, it's important to go into it more-- to get further to the bottom of what happened, really--if only to be less alone with the knowledge.I think I'd feel more comfortable with the latter. That's sort of what I did say when I told him I was still struggling with what was happening in the room but I was trying to put it in perspective. I was trying to use the realization that this did happen, and what's next, how do we go forward against all my strong urges to say, "But what about when you said this, and I said that? And that time we talked about X? And Y?" His response was to laugh and say, "Go with the perspective." Which I took to mean, I'd rather you didn't challenge me on this. But that could also mean, not hashing over every last thing and just moving forward and problem-solving might be "healthier"?
Sorry to be so long. I think this is the most confused I've ever been in therapy.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. It's helped me think through this some instead of just spinning in a circle.
gg
Posted by DAisym on July 27, 2007, at 20:29:31
In reply to Re: What to do---long » Honore, posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2007, at 12:46:27
GG,
I've been sitting with this for a little while, wondering how I would feel and what I would do. I think the confusion you've expressed is most probable. But I hear in your posts a quiet conviction that you are ready to let go and try to fly on your own. I'm sure this has been shaken by your therapist's forgetting. The message I'd hear if I were you is "you aren't ready" but without more discussion, I'm not sure you should assume that is true. If you really aren't, then great - you can continue. But if you are, maybe you set a new date, a few weeks longer and go ahead with it.
I just finished a book called "Taming Solitude" and the chapter on regression during the termination process and the pain of separation really made me think of you. I know you know all this stuff... It feels like the primary question I would be asking is "aren't I important to you at all, that you would forget this huge thing?" I don't think you can terminate with confidence if the relationship feels so up-ended. This has the potential to undo so much of the progress made in the therapy, based on the "real" relationship between the two of you. I think no matter how much he might want to move away from what is happening in the room, it must be talked about. Sure you can gain perspective on this glitch and you can see it as only one bump in an otherwise great journey -- but I'm afraid it will resonate so loudly if left undiscussed and will taint how you feel overall about things.
I'm sorry you have to wait so long to see him again. In this situation, it truly stinks.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 10, 2007, at 22:15:23
In reply to Re: What to do---long, posted by DAisym on July 27, 2007, at 20:29:31
Hi Daisy,
Not sure why I missed this one, sorry. You have it right, I think, about how I felt before this happened, and how it has affected that feeling. It's not unlike the time before when I mentioned a date for termination and he suggested two months later. I thought, "Um, he thinks I'm crazier than I thought?" or something like that. And then of course due to circumstances, we didn't end up terminating then.I still don't know what I'm going to do about termination. I wasn't sure I was going to be enrolled for any credit this fall, and that was a factor in my decision before. Apparently I was wrong about assuming that mattered, but anyway. I am going to be enrolled this fall after all, so I suppose now we could go another semester, actually probably a whole year if we decide that's best. That's good, but it's also confusing. Do I take advantage of the "free if you don't count tuition costs" therapy with a great T and continue? Or do I "fly on my own" as you said, as I had planned?
And the hell of it is, I can't even talk to him about it, unless we talk on the phone, which he and both suck at, until I get back from my trip at the end of the month. So it will be another four weeks or so between sessions. It's so messed up. As I write this, I realize that's not how we should end things, and it would probably take a while to get things back on track even if I do decide to go ahead with termination. So I'm guessing I'll go for a good two or three months more at minimum. Guess I'll know more when I finally get to see him again. Though this reminds me, I need to email him to let him know about the enrollment thing. And how off my understanding of the D-word requirements was. :)
Ramble ramble ramble....it must be obvious I'm still confused. But not as upset and absorbed with this as I was at first.
I'll try to get my hands on that book before I see him. It sounds like that chapter might be really helpful. What you wrote is spot-on, I think---good insights. Thank you.
>
> I'm sorry you have to wait so long to see him again. In this situation, it truly stinks.Thanks. It does stink. And two more weeks of stinkadge beyond that now, since I decided that Mom and I needed to be with my sis before they start inducing her. I really wish that baby could wait til Friday or Saturday. That's not too much to ask, is it? ;)
Thanks,
gg
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