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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
of those who can talk about the T-client relationship with their T's. I can't talk about it. I'd rather talk about ANYTHING else. The most shameful & traumatic moments in my life. But the relationship? that's truly truly terrifying.
Seriously, I've been in therapy for a year and a half, and I've only mentioned the T-me relationship a handful of times, very tentatively, and in passing.
How can I DEAL with it, if I can't even talk about it with my T? I make up all these reasons why I *shouldn't* talk about it. I make up all of these excuses. next week, next week, etc.
Maybe part of it is that I've only seen him 4 times in 5 weeks, which is probably enough to make the t-me relationship a little more open to speculation and a little less tethered to reality.
Allows lots of room for distressed LlurpsieMind to project ALL her insecurities.A mere handful of men get to know my emotional vulnerabilities. To admit that T is one of these men is utterly terrifying. completely mortifying. Can I quit now?
Posted by RealMe on September 4, 2007, at 20:40:49
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
No you can't quit, or I will too. Your post was so on target for me too. I think I don't want to go to therapy tomorrow. My therapist is easy on the eyes, a real looker unlike the guy I was seeing before him. And, he is so soft spoken, gentle, kind, understanding. Men like him should not exist!
Maybe I should try and make him angry; I doubt it would work. Too smart. Oh crap, he knows from a journaling I gave him around a month ago that when I first started seeing him in May, I had the hots for him. Oh MY God; what have I done. YOur fault Lurpsie bringing up this topic. Just kidding, but it sure has contributed to some anxiety on my part for tomorrow. I think I will go take a warm shower to relax. Later.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2007, at 21:04:56
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
It is scary. It took me forever to admit to any sort of relationship at all. And years to come to terms with positive feelings for him.
It was scarier for me than talking about sex. Probably scarier than money. A bit less scary than body image.
But it's surprisingly helpful
Posted by LittleGirlLost on September 4, 2007, at 21:23:56
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
Hey Llurpsie!
I don't know if you and I have ever spoken as I haven't posted in quite some time (though if you search the archives, you'll see I go back a few years!) Anyhoo... wanted to let you know you are not alone here; I can so relate. The T relationship is probably the hardest thing for me to talk about about and wouldn't you know, I sort of attempted to tonight, bouncing off an email I had sent her over the weekend, and it backfired. :( Probably doesn't help that I am super sensitive, but still.
So anyway, ya, I can relate. I also very much related to your above post on therapy taking up too much space in your mind; I just haven't been much of a poster.
LGL
Posted by sunnydays on September 4, 2007, at 21:44:14
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
Yes ll, but you were with different Ts for that year and a half. You'll get there. It took me, oh probably a year and a half with a single T before I'd even consider talking about the relationship with him. You'll get there when it's the right time, and only then. It's not a discussion to be forced, or I could see it going pretty badly.
sunnydays
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 8:23:54
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » LlurpsiEnOoDLe, posted by RealMe on September 4, 2007, at 20:40:49
> No you can't quit, or I will too. Your post was so on target for me too. I think I don't want to go to therapy tomorrow. My therapist is easy on the eyes, a real looker unlike the guy I was seeing before him. And, he is so soft spoken, gentle, kind, understanding. Men like him should not exist!
>okay okay, I won't quit. Maybe I'll just quit thinking about him. seems that when I see him more regularly I have fewer thoughts about him. Maybe I really am projecting.
Yes, men who are gentle, kind understanding really do exist, but even the perfect man cannot be perfect 100% of the time. Keep in mind that years of training has allowed this guy to seem very perfect, at least for 45 minutes in a row. Even therapists have their warts tho.
> Maybe I should try and make him angry; I doubt it would work. Too smart. Oh crap, he knows from a journaling I gave him around a month ago that when I first started seeing him in May, I had the hots for him. Oh MY God; what have I done. YOur fault Lurpsie bringing up this topic. Just kidding, but it sure has contributed to some anxiety on my part for tomorrow. I think I will go take a warm shower to relax. Later.
>
mmm, warm shower. If I hadn't just done my makeup I'd take one myself. I'm kinda chilly. Sorry for causing you anxiety. I guess we'll just have to follow some of the suggestions by our fellow babblers below...-Ll
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 8:28:25
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » LlurpsiEnOoDLe, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2007, at 21:04:56
it took forever? I always get the impression that folks on babble find these things straightforward, that they talk about holding and nurturing and all that stuff with relative ease. I'm glad I'm not the only one! Maybe I'll downgrade from jealousy to yearning?
Well, I figure that I've already talked about a lot of uncomfortable things, including the 3 you mentioned. sex, money and body image. In fact, this issue of llurpsie-male relationships is VERY difficult for me to wrap my addled brain around, especially as the relationship unfolds in the present. it's far easier for me to think about my role in past relationships.
helpful? maybe later. I guess I'm not ready to be helped just yet :(
-Ll
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 8:34:48
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » LlurpsiEnOoDLe, posted by LittleGirlLost on September 4, 2007, at 21:23:56
hi LGL, nice to meet you too :)
I *have* seen you in the archives, and I've been here for some time, so I've read your posts too. I'm so glad I'm not alone. I just got the impression from reading so many posts that HAVING feelings for T is very natural, and that EXPRESSING these feelings comes more easily to [most] others than me.
My formerT and I talked about this at termination. I remarked that I would really miss her, and how could I ever let her know how much I appreciated her? conversation turned to the T-me relationship, and she acknowledged that she KNEW how hard it was for me to talk about the relationship, but that I had done really well for only working with her for 9 months. Maybe it will take 8 months with my currenT, the quieT, until I feel comfortable talking about it. Maybe we need some history together? I dunno... hmmm. so tricky.
sorry your email backfired. maybe you were too subtle, tiptoeing around some delicate issue... I do that a lot
take care LGL, and I hope that you can figure this out as therapy unfolds. I hope I can too!
-Ll
p.s. don't worry about not being much of a poster, we all go through phases ;)
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 8:36:58
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » LlurpsiEnOoDLe, posted by sunnydays on September 4, 2007, at 21:44:14
> Yes ll, but you were with different Ts for that year and a half. You'll get there. It took me, oh probably a year and a half with a single T before I'd even consider talking about the relationship with him. You'll get there when it's the right time, and only then. It's not a discussion to be forced, or I could see it going pretty badly.
>
> sunnydaysthanks sunny, I guess I just feel more pressure to talk about it since reading "in session" and also reading everyone's posts. Part of me *wishes* I could have that conversation. Part of me *dreads* having the conversation. I guess it will take some time for the former to outweigh the latter.
Thanks for your advice, it helps take a lot of pressure off
-ll
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:41:44
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » Dinah, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 8:28:25
Change is like a fine wine (or so I'm told - all wine tastes like vinegar gone bad to me). It's ready in its own time and there's no point in forcing it.
You're aware of it, you're yearning for it. Maybe that's all that is needed at this point. That's a pretty big step all on its own.
It took me forever. But all I had at the time was a bunch of books written from the therapist's point of view, and I've grown to believe that there's a heck of a lot they just don't understand. I had no real frame of reference to use in deciphering what was happening.
Posted by raisinb on September 5, 2007, at 11:41:47
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » RealMe, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 8:23:54
If it's an issue for you, can you ask him to push you on it? I did that with my T, because if she just waits for me to start, I'll never get the courage to bring things up.
Posted by Sigismund on September 5, 2007, at 14:35:43
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
>A mere handful of men get to know my emotional vulnerabilities. To admit that T is one of these men is utterly terrifying. completely mortifying. Can I quit now?
Is that one of the advantages in having a female T? I had both and greatly preferred the female one.
We spent a lot of the time talking about what was happening in the room, examining the integrity of the relationship, of our behaviour together.
Posted by Wittgenstein on September 5, 2007, at 16:35:35
In reply to Re: I'm jealous, posted by Sigismund on September 5, 2007, at 14:35:43
I suppose the key to the difficulty in discussing the relationship is the inability to go about it indirectly. The other issues people have mentioned - the subjectivity of sex, body image etc. can to some extent be side-stepped and talked about objectively but telling your T that you care about him/her, that you miss them... it's so direct and confronting. I suppose you could breach the topic by asking about transference and feelings within the therapeutic relationship - what is normal - bring the topic into the open and then maybe later return to it with something more subjective.
I have managed to tell my T that I miss him - having spent most of the session in silence torturing myself over whether or not to say it. I also wrote to him some time ago and admitted I had been comforted during the vacation by the thought of hugging him - the session that followed was extremely uncomfortable for me.
To be honest I find all of these 'icky' topics very hard - I'm notoriously indirect and my T knows as well. The best I can often do is write very vaguely about whatever it is (a cryptic message) and send it to him. He then reads it... so I know he knows, but then we both continue somewhat pretending that such things were not communicated - I know he just wants me to talk about these things but it's so hard - he sometimes asks me to try and talk through what I sent him but he isn't overly direct - I guess he's willing to wait until I'm ready.
As for whether it would be easier with a female T - I personally don't think it would be as I have trust issues with women and trust is a key part in getting to a place where such personal things can be shared openly. I do wonder whether it might be easier in my case if my T were a bit younger - he's so much older that perhaps this heightens the awkwardness - but I'm not sure.
You're not alone Llurpsie.
Witti
Posted by peddidle on September 5, 2007, at 18:17:29
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 18:22:24
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » LlurpsiEnOoDLe, posted by LittleGirlLost on September 4, 2007, at 21:23:56
I hope things are going well?
Posted by peddidle on September 5, 2007, at 18:37:03
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
> of those who can talk about the T-client relationship with their T's. I can't talk about it. I'd rather talk about ANYTHING else. The most shameful & traumatic moments in my life. But the relationship? that's truly truly terrifying.
>
> Seriously, I've been in therapy for a year and a half, and I've only mentioned the T-me relationship a handful of times, very tentatively, and in passing.
>
> How can I DEAL with it, if I can't even talk about it with my T? I make up all these reasons why I *shouldn't* talk about it. I make up all of these excuses. next week, next week, etc.
>
**Did I write this? No? Funny-- it sounds just like me. :PI wish I had an answer for you, but, unfortunately, I'm clueless. All I can say is that I've been in therapy with the same T for about 3 years (minus summers) and I only mentioned how I truly feel about our relationship a few months ago, in an email no less. I've seen her twice since I got back, and she hasn't brought it up yet.
If I really decide to do something like that, I have to do it right that minute, because, otherwise, I know it'll never happen. Does your T allow email? Would you be able to tell him that there is something you really want to be able to discuss with him, and ask him for his email address, so that when you decide you're ready, you can just email him and not give yourself a chance to put it off any longer?
Posted by Honore on September 5, 2007, at 18:45:17
In reply to I'm jealous, posted by LlurpsiEnOoDLe on September 4, 2007, at 20:16:34
There's a lot to be said for waiting until you feel more ready, more comfortable with the topic, or with him, until you know him a lot better. And for letting things develop.
The topic isn't always of utmost importance, there are lots of important things to talk about; sometimes the thing one is most fixated on, or pressured about, isn't the thing one most needs. Of course, sometimes it is. But even so, the pressure you might feel is as if you're saying, it's hard and I don't feel comfortable with it, so it's what I've got to do-- rather than working within or just beyond your comfort. Maybe one particular day, for no special reason, you'll feel good enough, or safe enough to talk about how you feel, or to push through your resistance (if that's what it is).
There's so much, though, that's worth doing, that matters-- I wouldn't think the relationship is necessarily most valuable or helpful, or even the bravest thing-- as Dinah and others have said-- and maybe, if you feel a strong need to tell him, you can talk about why it's hard to talk about-- or that you haven't been able to before. Let time pass, and it will happen gradually, rather than because you've picked this time, or that. You'll get there, if you need to.
Progess is complicated, and often much more obscure than you expect.
Honore
Posted by LittleGirlLost on September 5, 2007, at 19:30:52
In reply to It's good to see you again. » LittleGirlLost, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 18:22:24
> I hope things are going well?
Thanks Dinah. :)
Unfortunately not so much... I think that's why I made a lame attempt attempt at posting last night. I want to reach out, but just feel intimidated and ambivalent about doing so.
I will say though, that this thread has been very helpful in reading how others have broached the subject of the therapeutic relationship with their therapists.
I'm nervous about seeing my therapist again tomorrow. I really don't think I'm cut out for this. I've had my doubts before also, but what do I expect... I come from a family that doesn't talk about things and that's how I was raised. It shouldn't be any surprise that I'm failing.
lgl
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 19:59:36
In reply to Re: It's good to see you again. » Dinah, posted by LittleGirlLost on September 5, 2007, at 19:30:52
Thank you all for your good sense and kindness. I am so happy to have so many thoughtful responses. I wish I had time to respond to all of you personally-- suffice it to say that I have decided the following
1) t-me relationship is evolving. Maybe it will evolve to a point where I can talk about it.
2) pressure to make the conversation happen is probably not the kind of pressure I need right now. best to reconnect after 6 weeks of sporadic sessions and reevaluate sometime later this fall
3) perhaps an alternate kind of communique would be helpful, but do I have the guts to ask for his fax/email?
4) knitting is a good stress reliever. Especially knitting with bulky yarn. I made half a hat today in 3 hours.
5) you guys are great :)maybe another day. For now it's bedtime.
take care all,
_ll
Posted by LittleGirlLost on September 5, 2007, at 20:29:29
In reply to wow- great thread!, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 19:59:36
Sounds like a good plan to me!
(and I agree; great thread!)
Posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:14:36
In reply to wow- great thread!, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 19:59:36
I hope you slept well and finish the hat today. :)
Isn't it interesting how we read what others write and think something is only hard for us? I have struggled this week with exactly this topic - not only talking about it but having the feelings and need for my therapist at all. Yesterday I was trying to tell him as diplomatically as i could that I was really angry at him for "leaving" me for a long weekend, as if he personally had control over it. *sigh* But I dissociated and had to stop talking about it. It was a mixture of frustration, embarrassment, sadness and wanting to just forget about my over-the-weekend feelings. It was just plain hard!
So you definately are not alone in this. I agree with everyone else - it will come up again and when you are ready, you will talk about it.
Posted by RealMe on September 5, 2007, at 22:56:41
In reply to Re: I'm jealous » RealMe, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 5, 2007, at 8:23:54
Yes, men who are gentle, kind understanding really do exist, but even the perfect man cannot be perfect 100% of the time. Keep in mind that years of training has allowed this guy to seem very perfect, at least for 45 minutes in a row. Even therapists have their warts tho.
>
> -Ll
>Yes of course I realize this. I am well aware he is not perfect as it has been evident at times like today in our sessions.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by 10derheart on September 5, 2007, at 23:58:41
In reply to Re: I'm jealous, posted by RealMe on September 5, 2007, at 22:56:41
My relationship with my T. (a little over 2.5 years) is actually the easiest thing for me to talk to him about. Not easy in each and every moment, yes - uncomfortable, still scary sometimes, but still way easier than the stuff I'm supposed to be talking about. Body image, self-loathing, how often I *actually* cry myself to sleep from loneliness and fear of the future (can I ever be be lovable to a man again stuff) are all next-to-impossible topics for me to sustain more than a few sentences without saying, "I don't want to talk about this. It's too hard."
But, I can tell my T. directly - all day long - that I miss him, I wish I could see him more, I'm furious over something he's said or done, jealous of his family, want to live in his office, think he's pushy, rude that day, ask him if he's scared of my feelings about him, or whatever.
I don't know why. It has gotten more natural over time, but frankly it wasn't hard for me in the beginning, once I trusted him to be consistent and safe to a certain degree (which didn't take so very long, and he is really good at this and gentle, and kind)
I've always had this bold, brash, challenging, in-your-face streak that likes to pop out....so maybe making blunt statements about feelings in relationships has always been "my style?" He's made it easier over time by being utterly unflappable. Nothing has fazed him yet. And boy do we talk about it all the time. To the point I complain to him it's the *only* thing I ever bring up and will he please make me change the subject?!
But, I still envy sunny and others because I need/want to tell him I love him, before one of us gets hit by a bus or something. I know the regret if I never express this feeling will feel worse than the fear of saying it will feel, but still....can't bring myself to go there. We do our favorite euphemism that's he's, "extremely important to me."
It's so interesting how differently we can all react in this area. Well, at least me - the sole odd one out, so far ;-)
LLurpsie, I can see being jealous, but everyone's right. It'll come in it's own time, and if you can talk to him about the really painful stuff about *you,* well, I think your T-me relationship will just naturally push it's own way into the dialog somehow. The work may get too intimate for it not to happen.
And it'll be fine - in fact, you may be surprised at a great sense of relief and safety. I know I was.
Posted by Dory on September 6, 2007, at 8:46:47
In reply to Ok, I'll be the odd one out (long), posted by 10derheart on September 5, 2007, at 23:58:41
talking to him about "us" is easier for me too.
i push it there a lot...
wanting to dissect what he meant
or what the connection is or should be
it's a mix
talking about "the process"
vs talking about the relationshipi called him on the terms used
he kept making this hand motion
and saying "this"
i said he had to say
the relationship
because i knew better
than to think that word had a bigger meaning.
i knew it didn't mean anything romanticnow i don't think about it
unless i am alone
it used to be in my brain
now i don't care about him so much
walled that off
it doesn't exist
what doesn't exist doesn't come to mind
unless i am alonehe said i tested him a lot
questioned the relationship a lot
that was easy to do
easier than i think he thought it would be for me
life is too short
silence makes it shorter
This is the end of the thread.
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