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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:12:37
So I've been working at my new job since last November. Over the months, I have developed a close friendship with a co-worker, particularly in the last couple of months. We have been working late lots together and have thus had a LOT of conversations about various things. Several months ago, when I figured out my T wasn't on my new health insurance (and that the insurance co. put ridiculous conditions on her working hours for her to be "eligible), I complained to this co-worker, who is on our management team. I did it via e-mail and she had a wonderful response to it. She even told me that she had been in therapy before and she'd like to talk to me about this more. But we never did.
Fast forward several months and I have talked about this co-worker a fair amount in therapy -- not every week, but I really like her and we are pretty bonded. She also lives in my neighborhood. So last night, she came over to talk for a while. I showed her a letter from the wonder-insurance co. inviting me to file for disability. WHAT????? She took one look at it and said they sent it because of the mental health diagnosis. I told her that couldn't be it, because I only filed one claim, which they denied, and that T (I used her first name, which is fairly unusual) used "Adaptive Disorder" as my diagnosis. And as far as I know, no one has EVER gotten disability for that diagnosis. Co-worker looked at me funny for a minute and said, "What's her name?" So I said T's first name again and then she filled in her last name. Then she said, "I *love* her. I was in therapy with her for years." I said, "Probably not as long as I have been." LOL
So we had a good conversation and I feel okay about that. I think it would be weirder for me if she was currently in therapy with MY T. But here's the thing. Of course, I brought it up tonight with T and she laughed and asked me if I had any issues to discuss around that. And I don't really, except:
I can't stop thinking that for months I have talked about this woman and never once got a clue that T had ever even met her, much less been in therapy with her. And I get that, I really do. But it was basically a lie. So now I sit here and wonder about her ability to lie straight to my face and I didn't have a clue.
So what do you think? I'm trying not to obsess about this...
Posted by Maria01 on September 6, 2007, at 19:43:11
In reply to My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:12:37
Your T isn't a liar as much as she is bound by law to protect the confidentiality of those who see her. A T can't disclose the names of any other clients to anyone, except for the insurance company, family members if the client is a minor, or to a person that the client authorizes for disclosure. This also includes past clients like your co-worker.
If your T were to voluntarily say "Oh, yeah. I remember your co-worker X, she used to see me." your T could lose her license.
Just a little FYI.
Posted by DAisym on September 6, 2007, at 19:53:10
In reply to My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:12:37
I'm pretty sure what you meant when you said "I get this" is that you understand that your therapist is bound legally and ethically. But yeah, it would give me pause too. We think we can read them and this tells you we can't always. Which is good and bad, right?
I think it is important to bring it up and clear the air about it. I know you talked to her about finding this out but the deeper question of "are you hiding anything from me that I might need to know or be concerned about -- like feelings of..." is a fair one to ask. I tell my children all the time, "don't lie to me about stupid things because then I won't trust you with the important stuff." Anything weird like this can shake trust, no matter how justifiable or necessary.
My guess is that most therapists get really good at not reacting. We can say just about anything and they are very good at splitting their minds - the front they show us says, "say more about that" and the in the back they are thinking, "uh-oh! or crap! or where the hell did that come from?"
It must be hard to be a therapist sometimes.
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:54:06
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by Maria01 on September 6, 2007, at 19:43:11
Yeah, I know all that and I'm really okay with that aspect. It's just the little voice in the back of my head that says I should have picked up SOMETHING in her body language. I have known her for 22 years, after all. So it's just a little scary that I didn't pick up anything at all.
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 20:12:53
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » Maria01, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:54:06
I think it means she is a darn good therapist. When I was doing therapy with patients, this happened once, and I never gave any inkling to the person that I knew who s/he was talking about. Realy can't. The fact that she showed no reaction, etc, is a good thing as it means if someone comes along to talk about you to her as their therapist (for example), that person will not have a clue in the world from the therapist that she sees you too.
So, my vote is she is NOT a good liar. She is a good therapist.
RealMe
(Oz)P.S. Others are right too saying she could lose her license if she acknowledged you or the other person to each other.
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:20:57
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by DAisym on September 6, 2007, at 19:53:10
EXACTLY. My rational, adult self understands exactly what happened here and is even relieved that she's so discreet.
But the OTHER part of me is screaming, "WAIT, just a minute. Shouldn't I have picked up on that?"
So it's very frustrating. I probably will bring it up with her next week. Tonight, when she was talking about all the possible issues I might have with it (and no, she didn't hit on the one issue I actually have), I looked down at the love seat I was sitting on and there was an ant -- the 2nd one I had seen during my session. So I interrupted her with, "You've got ants." She cut herself off, took a long look at me and then just burst out laughing. When she could actually talk again, she said, "I guess you don't want to talk about this anymore." I assured her that I did, indeed, hope to talk about this ad nauseum but THERE WERE ANTS IN HER OFFICE. LOL It was a pretty funny exchange.
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:21:52
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 20:12:53
Thanks for the excellent reframing, Oz. And I mostly believe that. It's just that niggling little thought...
But thanks.
Posted by Honore on September 6, 2007, at 20:42:04
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » RealMe, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:21:52
It's a shame that you;re in such an uncomfortable and awkward position, but I'm sure you and your T can work out a way of dealing with the feelings you have about her knowing your friend.
Oz is really right-- just as she protected your friend, she can protect you-- and really-- we all tell and don't tell certain things to others-- without lying. This is of course a particularly important fact-- but then where would/could it stop? You know that your T knows this person-- but it's still something that she can't talk about-- or comment on-- if you talk about your friend-- so is she lying about that? I mean, it's just one of those unfair situations-- where you have to negotiate a coincidence that feels odd-- and unnatural. Because of course, usually if a friend knows a friend-- you'll know about it-- and often shape your comments accordingly. But you don't have to do that-- or wouldn't want to-- with your T-- and by the same token-- that it's not a usual relationship-- your T can't divulge anything about you or your friend to the other. So it's not something you're used to--
I'm glad Oz's comments helped-- I'm sure your T has privately been wishing at times that she didn't have this secret-- herself.
But it's great that you have a friend, and coworker, who can understand your feelings about being in therapy (not the part about sharing Ts, but the whole thing)-- and support you. So I guess there is a silver lining to the cloud-- or maybe eventually this will seem like a small cloud in a basically blue sky.
Honore
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 20:44:09
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » RealMe, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:21:52
Are you saying you want to be better than her at picking up on nonverbal commnuication??? Why the lingering thought. What would that mean if you had picked up on something?
If I were able to pick up on something like that with my therapist, I think I would be upset with him as then it means that others can likely pick up on stuff with him too, and that would mean he has some problems maintaining boundaries. I sure don't want that, and so I have no idea who else he sees except for the person who is right after me.
RealMe
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:48:25
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 20:44:09
No, you're right when you put it that way. It's just when I'm in my space of having this connection with her and then her being able to hide something like this from me. You know? I'm not saying I want it to be different or that it should be different, it's just I have these two completely opposite reactions to the whole situation going on all at one time.
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:49:49
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by Honore on September 6, 2007, at 20:42:04
I think it will be fine, but I appreciate the way you understand my position, Honore.
And you are right to point out all the positive things in this whole ridiculous situation.
And you're right about my friend and co-worker -- there is no one else I can think of who I'd want to share my T with. And she totally gets it. She didn't even gulp when I told her how long I'd been in therapy.
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 21:36:48
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:48:25
I figured that is how it was, and Honore gave a really good repsonse. We must remember this when she thinks she has no good qualities. She is very helpful to me, and I see to you too. It is kind of a strange situation. Sad, but true, therapists are not our friends.
RealMe
Posted by muffled on September 6, 2007, at 21:41:49
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 20:49:49
Wow, I didn't read all the replies TG, but I read your responses and got the jist of it.
Yeah, that'd freak me, like whats wrong with my radar? Is it malfunctioning???
Its hard to have more than one opinion going on in your head isn't it? Conflict. It can be so very draining.
My first thot was just that, I guess T's, by the very nature of their profession, must learn to have pretty good poker faces....
And I imagine it becomes automatic to keep quiet bout clients past and present. She proly does it w/o thinking too much bout it, and so that would explain your lack of picking it up on your radar.
I LOVED your ant story, thats WAY too funny!!!!
I'm glad you can have moments like that and not get upset bout it, and just enjoy it together :-)
I LOVE laughter.
I'm also glad you have found a good friend.
So maybe things are gonna get better w/T?
Hope so.
Best wishes to you TG.
Hope stuff is going mostly OK for you.
Muffled
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 22:55:21
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 20:44:09
I don't think I could tolerate therapy with someone I couldn't "see" in that way. It's too important to me to know someone and how they normally feel and even the teeniest change in how they feel. I can feel when he leans backward mentally even if he stays neutral in his voice. Or when he crosses his arms mentally even if his voice stays calm and reasonable.
He's used to my framing my impressions in terms of movements he's not even making. Or of me informing him when he's upset or more cheerful than usual before I even sit down. And he recognizes that I'm nearly always right in my impressions.
Sometimes I meet people who have nothing visible behind their surfaces. It makes me very very nervous. How can you trust someone you can only see with your eyes and hear with your ears?
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 23:03:44
In reply to My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:12:37
I agree with everyone else. It would make me very very unhappy if my therapist had acknowledged the relationship. Or even if he told me of a relationship he had with someone I wanted to talk about a lot, even if it wasn't a therapeutic relationship. It wouldn't leave me free to speak frankly. I imagine it is difficult for them in those situations.
But I certainly understand feeling disconcerted by not reading your therapist correctly. That would shake me up but good. Still, sometimes I feel my therapist react to something in such a way that I fleetingly recognize there was a reaction, but I don't ask about it because it doesn't feel right. Does that happen with you? If so, maybe you did read a reaction here or there, but just didn't realize the significance of it because it came and went quickly, and wasn't directly related to what you were saying.
Posted by DAisym on September 6, 2007, at 23:11:27
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 22:55:21
My therapist talks about my radar all the time. I'm usually right too. Once in awhile though I do project my own mood onto him. I usually can figure that out too.
Which is why this situation would totally throw me too.
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 23:23:38
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 22:55:21
Maybe I just haven't seen my therapist long enough and spend most of my time looking at the floor. It makes me too uptight to look at him though I have noticed when he cracks his neck or when his ankle was bothering him, and I asked about it and said what I thought he should do, and he thanked me for caring. YIKES--trigger for me. So, for now with my stupid cataracts from my asthma meds, I can't even really see his face; it's a blur. I may just freak later when the cataracts are removed!!
RealMe
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 23:27:05
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 6, 2007, at 23:11:27
Maybe because it has happened to me as a therapist that it doesn't throw me or bother me. I think it might "embarass" me, though. Now off to bed as I already said in another thread, 4:15 a.m. rolls around quickly. Bye--therapy tomorrow; now I am getting nervous.
RealMe
(Oz)
Posted by arora on September 7, 2007, at 5:18:06
In reply to My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:12:37
I understand what everyone has said about confidentiality, and I know how crucially important that is within the therapist/client relationship... but I have to admit if I discovered I'd been discussing someone that the therapist had also had as a client- well, I would feel weird, too.
Ooh! just remembered an incident where I did something embarrassing with my ex-T .... but I'll save it for another thread, since I don't want to hijack TG's.
arora
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 18:00:56
In reply to My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by TherapyGirl on September 6, 2007, at 19:12:37
If it helps any, my therapist says the energy that goes into keeping confidentiality in these circumstances is different from the energy involved in deception. So what she would project would not be the same as what she would project if she was lying.
He didn't tell me if he'd ever kept similar confidences with me. :)
Extremely unfortunately, I mentioned that I knew he lied to me once, and I could tell, but since I knew it was none of my business I hadn't said anything. Ugh. Of course he wanted to know what time I was talking about. I had to resort to telling him no, straight out and none too politely. He looked clearly annoyed for a moment, before visibly letting it go, relaxing, and telling me that his supervisor once told him that you can tell an honest man because they'll admit they'll lie from time to time.
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 7, 2007, at 18:08:37
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 23:03:44
That does happen to me every now and then, but I don't think it happened around this situation.
I appreciate the way you understand my conflict around all this. :-)
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 7, 2007, at 18:09:39
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG, posted by arora on September 7, 2007, at 5:18:06
Thanks, Arora.
And feel free to "hijack" my thread anytime. I love to hear embarrassing stories! LOL
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 7, 2007, at 18:11:02
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 18:00:56
I like what your T said about energy and I suspect it's true. I'll have to repeat that to myself every time I get freaked out by this.
Also very interesting about the lying. I bet your T sometimes hates it that you know and read him so well. :-)
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 7, 2007, at 18:12:13
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 21:36:48
Both you and Honore have been helpful to me on a number of occasions. And not necessarily when you're responding to MY threads -- any number of your posts to others have been very helpful. One of the many things I love about this place.
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 7, 2007, at 18:13:05
In reply to Re: My T is Apparently a Good Liar LONG » TherapyGirl, posted by muffled on September 6, 2007, at 21:41:49
Thanks, Muffly. I *knew* you would get it exactly and you did.
Glad I made you laugh, too. I do enjoy laughing and probably don't do it enough.
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