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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dory on September 8, 2007, at 22:13:30
Posted by muffled on September 6, 2007, at 22:01:50
In reply to Re: Thinking of you, posted by Dory on September 6, 2007, at 7:11:10
maybe. i am just so deeply depressed now.
so many hard choices in my life
so much to carry
you know that
people say i can't do it all
but what else can i do?
is there any other choice i don't know about?
you live or you die and this is what my life is>Well Dory, you got reasons for being depressed,
>wassup w/you and T other than perhaps you are feeling betrayed by him?
-very betrayed. i need him to be immovable, a firm anchor. i cannot do anything about the major life crisis without that solid support. i need to be able to call for reassurance or i will come to a dead stop, ****and*** i need to be able to count on what he says... if he makes a rule, a boundary or whatever the f*ck he wants to call it then he has to make it solid. That's the point right? How do i know he won't change other rules? How do i know he'll ever do or not do things he says? How can i see him as stable and predictable?
>That maybe you smacked into a boundary wall and its really a trigger for you and you hurting?
the schema stuff i am reading talks about how sometimes a T's ideas will backfire because they might misread or not understand a particular schema... which means they use the wrong approach. Pulling away from someone with an emotional deprivation schema is a bad idea for example. i just don't understand this choice of his... without preparation or discussion.
>Do you think you can explain or show some of what you have written to him? There's been some very eloquent writings...
i don't know what parts to show him. i gave him the paragraph about the bird, but i don't know what else to give him. i feel like it's all rambling b*llshit
>AS for whether a T give a crap bout us
that's ok. i know where i stand with him. i'm on the side that doesn't believe that they care... i mean they do, but it's a rigid cold caring and a lot of pretend. When you really care about someone the "boundaries" are different. It's not even just the pay/fee part of it... it's the b*llshit... some T's got it right and maybe they care... but in my book caring means more than what most T's do. but that is just me. i know he doesn't care, he acts caring, big difference but that's his job.
>Do you think your meds are correct at this time? Do mebbe they need a tweak? Or is this depression more situational do you think?
my meds are being adjusted, but i got docs arguing about them with me in the middle. That doesn't help one bit. i know, and i can't post why but i know, that part of my depression could be alleviated through med adjustments that i can't get anyone to do.
But you know most of my circumstance... what do you think? How could anyone get through this without depression? Just the medical dx's alone are hard...one doc just looked at me and said that anyone who lived with this much pain would be depressed. Nice.
>when we realize that the T can't save us :-( BUT, though its dissapointing, they WILL teach us how to save ourselves, accept ourselves, love ourselves, and treat our own selves with dignity , compassion, and respect.
This is what i tell my T seems empty to me. It looks like a wasteland. i don't want him to save me... ? i don't understand that part. i want him to be my catalyst for now and he said that was reasonable. The rest is whatever it is.. i don't believe, like really believe, that deep feelings can be changed and so i'm just aiming for something functional.
Thanks muffled
Posted by DAisym on September 8, 2007, at 22:46:17
In reply to Muffled and anyone.... crap continued, posted by Dory on September 8, 2007, at 22:13:30
For a very long time - years and years - I desperately wanted to just not be unhappy. I wasn't asking God to grant me joy and happiness, I was asking that the load be reduced to a managable amount. I'm not sure if I didn't believe I could be happy or if I didn't deserve it, I just knew it felt like too much to ask.
Therapy has helped me begin (a tini-tiny bit)to believe I might be allowed to be happy. And for awhile I wanted my therapist or the therapy itself to be the source of that happiness. But the truth is, happiness has to be found within one's self and one's life. I know this sounds trite. And believe me, I know it isn't easy. Sometimes life is just hard, for no reason at all. Or for bunches and bunches of reasons we have no control over.
Your therapist is just one man. If you give him all the power - for your happiness, your security...for your life - he is sure to fail. And then by default, you fall into the abyss. If you make him part of your team, a piece of your support, the mistakes he does make won't hurt as much.
I'm not saying he didn't make a mistake. I'm just saying that it doesn't negate everything he does do well that helps you.
Hang in there.
Posted by RealMe on September 8, 2007, at 23:07:17
In reply to Muffled and anyone.... crap continued, posted by Dory on September 8, 2007, at 22:13:30
Dory
I think you should show your therapist all of what you wrote and write since he decided on the "new" boundary definitions. You see I don't think this means he doesn't care about you and is only acting like he cares. Acting like you care takes too much energy, so much more than actually caring.
See my therapist made a mistake I learned or I suppose the billing person, but that person would not have made the mistake if he had conveyed what he told me. Back when I told him I was upset that he was shorting me time, he said the session for that day was free. I just got my bill today, and I was charged for the session. So, should I now decide he doesn't really care about me. I don't think so. I am upset about it, and I am not going to let it just go. The point is, he is human, and so now what.
In your situation you need to address your feelings with your therapist even if it is from your writings. Please try to do that.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Dory on September 8, 2007, at 23:30:32
In reply to Re: Muffled and anyone.... crap continued, posted by DAisym on September 8, 2007, at 22:46:17
As usual Daisy you have written something very thoughtful... thank you.
> For a very long time - years and years - I desperately wanted to just not be unhappy. I wasn't asking God to grant me joy and happiness, I was asking that the load be reduced to a managable amount. I'm not sure if I didn't believe I could be happy or if I didn't deserve it, I just knew it felt like too much to ask.
exactly. i don't know and don't care which, i know that happiness is beyond what i am aiming for now. One time, yes, i would have expected happiness, but not at this point in life. i just want life to not be an exhausting tornado... a continuous disaster that sucks the life energy from my soul.
>
> Therapy has helped me begin (a tini-tiny bit)to believe I might be allowed to be happy. And for awhile I wanted my therapist or the therapy itself to be the source of that happiness. But the truth is, happiness has to be found within one's self and one's life. I know this sounds trite. And believe me, I know it isn't easy.i do know this. i know therapy can't be my happiness, nor give me happiness or anything like that. i do know that happiness is an inside deal... but i also know i don't have it. There isn't any happiness in me nor the makings of it. But like i said above, i'm not hoping for that anyway, just hoping for the intense pain and exhaustion to stop.
> Your therapist is just one man. If you give him all the power - for your happiness, your security...for your life - he is sure to fail. And then by default, you fall into the abyss. If you make him part of your team, a piece of your support, the mistakes he does make won't hurt as much.
this sounds very lovely daisy... but what does it mean to make him a part of my team? He admits it to me all the time as well, i have very few good, nondestructive coping skills. It's a team of one and he's it i'm afraid. i'm pathetic i guess.
>
> I'm not saying he didn't make a mistake. I'm just saying that it doesn't negate everything he does do well that helps you.
>
> Hang in there.i'm trying. we talked about that... that one breach of trust doesn't mean he is untrustworthy.. but that all sounds good on paper right? it's the head trying to tell the heart what to do... the head understands the mistake and the good things too, but the heart feels the pain and doesn't understand.
what i want most from him is that element that struck me when your T said he didn't want you to committ suicide because he'd miss you. Such a simple act. And that element could be shown in a variety of very kosher ethical ways.
thanks daisy
Posted by Dory on September 8, 2007, at 23:42:36
In reply to Re: Muffled and anyone.... crap continued » Dory, posted by RealMe on September 8, 2007, at 23:07:17
*all* of what i wrote? you really think so? oh god, he'd never want to read all of that stuff... it doesn't make sense and there is a lot. i tried to tell him how i felt and he said he understood why i was upset. Since then i have been just deeply depressed.
Posted by RealMe on September 8, 2007, at 23:59:45
In reply to Re: Muffled and anyone.... crap continued » RealMe, posted by Dory on September 8, 2007, at 23:42:36
Sorry; I didn't mean all of what you have wrote; just what you wrote since his "mistake" and how you have felt about it. Or alternatively, write up something now, something new that expresses what is going on with you now since that time and how you are not so sure anymore you can ever be trusting or happy. It is a place to start afresh.
You see; I think, no I know things can get better. Is it true that you don't allow yourself to be human and make mistakes, and therefore it feels horrible when he makes a mistake? I don't know if that fits or not.
I know for me I can be very self-critical, and then it spills over to my T who I think should not make mistakes. I have to constantly remind myself he is human and also I have to remind myself that I am human too and that it is okay for me to make mistakes too.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Dory on September 9, 2007, at 17:26:36
In reply to Re: Muffled and anyone.... crap continued » Dory, posted by RealMe on September 8, 2007, at 23:59:45
you are so right. mistakes? me? no, not allowed. Not saying they don't happen, just that it's a violation of my being to make one. i am destroyed easily by making a mistake. i am currently struggling with a crisis situation... one that is important for sure, but it needn't be the torture i am making it... and all because i am afraid of making a mistake. No amount of telling myself it's ok makes any difference.
a life without mistakes. sounds really incredibly stupid. Cannot be done and yet i cling to it. i tolerate mistakes in others and forgive quickly... i can get knocked off my feet for a bit but i come around and forgive quickly, and often then find a way to make it my mistake and not theirs. With my T... well, i have already moved into the "my fault" stage. He made a decision i don't agree with, but i feel ultimately responsible for it. i caused all of those events to unfold.
Posted by muffled on September 10, 2007, at 0:03:26
In reply to Muffled and anyone.... crap continued, posted by Dory on September 8, 2007, at 22:13:30
**Hey Dory.
I was trying to cobble together some of your writings as jumped out at me, and why...mebbe you could take this into T, and go thru it and talk about it? Him just reading it isn't enuf. My T reads some of my most intense stuff and doesn't 'get' it, and I never understood why, but then I read it later and I realize it made all sense to me, but I needed to use my voice to explain it further to her.>i saw him today and it wasn't the same. i'm disconnected and he is fallible. i don't feel secure.
**See that just hits me as JUMBO HUGE. Your scared, and mebbe you wanto run, and mebbe your scared he can't be what you need...., I been going thru that some w/my T, worrying is she tough enuf, is she just gonna bail on me...
Unfortunately it takes time to build the trust, and so little to make us wanto run, but trust can be built by working THRU this stuff, and realizing that maybe T is human, and fallible, and mebbe gonna screw up BUT, mebbe DESPITE that, he still gonne be there for you.....like a rock.>what would be so bad about him actually caring?
what would be so bad about him being gentle?
am i so repulsive that even he cannot express care or tenderness towards me?*that made me sad. I think you can only expect so much from any T, but some T's are more blank slate than others. OF COURSE you are NOT repulsive, noone is. We all just want caring. I wonder if you guys could discuss what form this show of caring would take? HAS he to this point stuck with you? Is he deliberately cruel to you? Does his eyes shift around trying to hide his disgust? Or does he look you in the eye with respect...and maybe compassion? Mebbe just a weesy bit of caring???
>he said again that he would always call
if i say i really want him to
he didn't say he was wrong
or that he was sorry
i wanted that
he did say what he did
was directly against what he promised though
i think he knows he should have
talked to me first*My T is the same, she will NOT call me back unless I ask her to. Must be some T code of something.
Its good that he said he would always call...
So it was KINDA an apology...
Maybe it would have been nicer if he said I am sorry if my descion caused you pain, I didn't mean it to? or something like that?>i want him to just show me, even once, that i deserve a little gentleness.
He doesn't need to say anything about him really
Can he lean closer and tell me that
he can see i'm hurting?
Can he say that he hears me cry inside?
Can he lower his voice to that soothing tone?
Can he see the little bird that needs to be wrapped and kept safe?
can he see through the blank wall? the one
that can't feel or show him?
can't cry when i hit the ground like a stone
can't make a sound while i struggle in agony
gentle hands to pick me up
lost lost lost
it's all words and find it yourself
reach out reach out no one will ever reach in
i want him to reach in and touch my hand
let me know that someone on the outside
cares whether i make it out
sad. lost. alone.
crying inside. staring into space.i feel scared and alone.
**this is hard and sad to read, but so beautifully written, and very clear...
>a life without mistakes. sounds really incredibly stupid. Cannot be done and yet i cling to it. i tolerate mistakes in others and forgive quickly... i can get knocked off my feet for a bit but i come around and forgive quickly, and often then find a way to make it my mistake and not theirs. With my T... well, i have already moved into the "my fault" stage. He made a decision i don't agree with, but i feel ultimately responsible for it. i caused all of those events to unfold.
**I think it might be very helpful for your T to understand how you turn stuff around. I do it too. Thats where CBT stuff was helpful for me, helped me to see how I was twisting stuff around in my head and telling myself untrue stuff.
>this sounds very lovely daisy... but what does it mean to make him a part of my team? He admits it to me all the time as well, i have very few good, nondestructive coping skills. It's a team of one and he's it i'm afraid. i'm pathetic i guess.
**A team of three: Dory and T and babblefriends....
>what i want most from him is that element that struck me when your T said he didn't want you to committ suicide because he'd miss you. Such a simple act. And that element could be shown in a variety of very kosher ethical ways.
**yeah Daisy has been w/her T a long time, he's cool all right. Mebbe your T will be too with time...
>very betrayed. i need him to be immovable, a firm anchor. i cannot do anything about the major life crisis without that solid support. i need to be able to call for reassurance or i will come to a dead stop, ****and*** i need to be able to count on what he says... if he makes a rule, a boundary or whatever the f*ck he wants to call it then he has to make it solid. That's the point right? How do i know he won't change other rules? How do i know he'll ever do or not do things he says? How can i see him as stable and predictable?
**well expressed IMHO. Self explanatory. Might be nice to discuss what 'drives' that paragraph above...
>the schema stuff i am reading talks about how sometimes a T's ideas will backfire because they might misread or not understand a particular schema... which means they use the wrong approach. Pulling away from someone with an emotional deprivation schema is a bad idea for example. i just don't understand this choice of his... without preparation or discussion.**mebbe he just screwed up, T's do. You need to remember that lots of us clients are MASTERS of disguise....and so maybe difficult to 'read' at times....
>i don't know what parts to show him. i gave him the paragraph about the bird, but i don't know what else to give him. i feel like it's all rambling b*llshit
that's ok. i know where i stand with him. i'm on the side that doesn't believe that they care... i mean they do, but it's a rigid cold caring and a lot of pretend. When you really care about someone the "boundaries" are different. It's not even just the pay/fee part of it... it's the b*llshit... some T's got it right and maybe they care... but in my book caring means more than what most T's do. but that is just me. i know he doesn't care, he acts caring, big difference but that's his job.**I been down that road.....guess I am fortunate that my T has yet to give up on me no matter HOW many times I try and drive her away, test her etc...
This is what i tell my T seems empty to me. It looks like a wasteland. i don't want him to save me... ? i don't understand that part. i want him to be my catalyst for now and he said that was reasonable. The rest is whatever it is.. i don't believe, like really believe, that deep feelings can be changed and so i'm just aiming for something functional.**Start w/functional and go from there I guess. Yeah, T is supposed to help and support, but yeah, it IS hard, 1/hr/wk.......somehow....it just don't seem enuf....but I guess we just goto keep trying and slowly move ahead, trust that things will work.
You seem to have posted some great insights and awareness of your situation....I think you can do good work, and be a successful client.
I got faith in ya Dory.
These are just some thots.
I have taken babblestuff in to T and its been very useful, and my T thinks babblers are great!
So I goto run, took awhile, got no time to reread in detail.
Hope this post is OK.
I really do wish you the best, or even a little peace for crying out loud. T seems so slow ....its hard, but your proly moving ahead, even if you can't tell it right now.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by Dory on September 10, 2007, at 21:25:37
In reply to Re: Muffled and anyone.... crap continued » Dory, posted by muffled on September 10, 2007, at 0:03:26
holy flying ratshit! That was a LOT of work for you to do that muffled... wow. i am impressed and touched at your thoughtfulness. Just wow. i'm going to print out your post, but i'm going to put it into Word first and make it a little more clear as to who is saying what.
i am touched.. truly. It also feels weird somehow to see what i wrote.. more objective.
i am going to start a new thread on how things have panned out so far... thank you for taking the time to do this.
Posted by muffled on September 10, 2007, at 23:48:05
In reply to Re: Muffled and anyone.... crap continued » muffled, posted by Dory on September 10, 2007, at 21:25:37
Awww Dory.
Its what friends do for friends, simple as that.
I value you as a person and a friend.
I hope its helpful somehow.
Ya a new thread further down is better.
I am SO GLAD your posting again as I don't do all that well with chat.
:-)
Muffled
This is the end of the thread.
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