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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2008, at 20:32:36
I did what I said I was going to do. I walked in and said I wanted to talk about something that might make him annoyed. That I was so afraid of termination, because I really thought of it as *termination*. And that I thought it might be a good idea to talk about what would happen.
He was actually proud of me, I think. Or pleased with me or something.
He's no idiot of course. He said he was afraid that if we talked about it, I would assume that it was because he was preparing me for termination. He said he had no intention or desire to terminate me, and didn't foresee terminating me. We agreed to discuss it purely as a way to reduce my fears, with the understanding that it didn't mean he was thinking of terminating me.
I reminded him of T2 and T3 and how poorly they thought of my emotional self and some of the things they said. (He remembered what T3 said better than I did actually.) He said that it might be hard to find a therapist who didn't think they were supposed to fix me. He smiled when I insisted I wasn't broken. I'm not quite sure why. But he said he knew a few people whose style was similar to his, and said that if he talked to them first and made sure they understood, then he was sure I could find someone.
I'm not as sure. He's really good at accepting.
We then went in circles a bit over how this would be accomplished. He said that if (not when) he terminated me, he'd give me the names of other therapists. But I reminded him that when he terminated me, I wouldn't be speaking to him because I'd hate him forever and ever.
I apologized for not being nice enough to not want what's best for him, even if it meant terminating me. But then I realized that he's not nice enough to not want what's best for him even if means terminating me, so neither of us is being nice.
He was really nice about that.
So he said he'd give me the names now, when terminating me isn't even on the horizon. He mentioned them. They're all men. He says he thinks I'll have better luck with a man. I wonder if that's because he doesn't think I'll like a woman, or if he agrees with me that women therapists don't like me.
In the course of the discussion I found out a bit more than he'd previously told me. Maybe since we were already talking about termination in what he thought was a mature way, he felt he could say more? He said that he found that it wouldn't be easy to transfer his license to another state, despite the reciprocal agreements, because of some technicality. So that even if he wanted to leave the state he didn't think he could. He said this was good news. I said it meant he was thinking of abandoning me. He also asked if I would be willing to see him at nonstandard times if that was necessary. Like if he got a job. I reminded him that I had always been flexible in seeing him however I could, and that if it were possible, I would. I also reminded how unhappy and crabby he was when he had a job, and how he often wasn't present in sessions because of that, and how I really really hated that.
He says he does not foresee terminating me, he does not wish to terminate me, and he will try his hardest not to do anything that would make terminating me necessary.
I told him that I might need to call him after this session. I cried through the whole thing. He was at his absolute best, which is pretty darn good. But strangely, so far I feel less need to call him than I have at any recent session.
Go figure.
It was really really really really really hard to talk about termination.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2008, at 20:37:30
In reply to Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2008, at 20:32:36
You know what's really cool?
He really did think I was being mature in discussing it with him, even though I don't think I said one remotely mature thing all session.
Posted by obsidian on June 6, 2008, at 22:09:38
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2008, at 20:37:30
geez dinah, you're brave
Posted by Phillipa on June 7, 2008, at 0:48:21
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » Dinah, posted by obsidian on June 6, 2008, at 22:09:38
Dinah so he also worked for someone else in the time you were seeing him could he have money problems? Love Phillipa
Posted by Daisym on June 7, 2008, at 1:24:19
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Phillipa on June 7, 2008, at 0:48:21
I can't even imagine. I think your tears were justified, I'm impressed that you could get words out. I don't think I could do that.
I think his plan is good - to give you the names now. Take them, hold them and know you probably won't need them.
But it does seem like your fears went down some. And that was the purpose of the discussion, right? I hope your sense of calm stays with you.
Posted by star008 on June 7, 2008, at 2:25:31
In reply to Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2008, at 20:32:36
glaD you got it out in the open and talked through. you can relax now for awhile, huh?? It is hard to think you will lose someone who means so much to you.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:10:19
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » Dinah, posted by obsidian on June 6, 2008, at 22:09:38
Me? I didn't feel brave.
It's just that the unspoken was scarier than speaking.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:16:13
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Phillipa on June 7, 2008, at 0:48:21
In the time I've seen him, he once had a mostly full time position, although he had off two half days a week to see clients.
I'm sure money - and benefits - are part of his concern. He's seemed pretty fully booked lately to me, but being self employed can be scary at the best of times, especially when one isn't young anymore. As a general comment. Of course he didn't discuss that with me.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:38:04
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Daisym on June 7, 2008, at 1:24:19
It was good to get the unspoken into the room. Sometimes with him and with my husband, I suspect I'm more than usually semipsychic.
I now think I have a better idea at where he is in the leaving department. And since he doesn't actually lie to me, at this point it doesn't seem like he's planning to go anywhere even if our sessions might be inconvenienced. Although if a really good job was available elsewhere, he'd probably jump on it. :(
I guess I can sort of understand, if I take myself out of the picture. If he terminated me, I'd want to pick up my family and run to another city, I think. At the least. But I just can't be understanding when it means my therapist/mommy abandoning me.
It was easier to discuss because he was really wonderful. He was calmly open and receptive, and let me say whatever horrible things I was thinking, accepting them calmly and acknowledging them. And he used the gentle humor that works so well with me.
For example, I did bring up my old more extreme plan of what to do if he terminated me. And said that while it wasn't currently my intention, if I was surprised and very very angry what if I forgot it wasn't my plan? I reminded him of the last circular argument we had, where he said he couldn't have people from the loony bin skulking outside to cart me off. He'd have to have my husband come with me. But I told him as soon as my husband said he'd been told to come with me, he would have effectively terminated me. So he teased that he'd have to ask me to meet him at the emergency room for our session, but I reminded him that saying that would also be a termination. So he started coming up with fanciful ways to manage to get me to come to the emergency room for the session. Not only did it make me smile, but it brought home that if he was teasing me so lightheartedly about it, then he really couldn't be thinking he'd need to worry about it. So that was reassuring.
He was also great when we talked about the other two therapists. He didn't try to cover up that I probably came across as a bit odd to them. But he also somehow made it sound as if while it might be natural for them to react the way they did, it wasn't right or correct for me. And it may sound horrible, but it wasn't when he did it.
At one point I said it was too hard to continue, and he promptly said we could stop talking about it at once. Clever therapist. He wants to talk about it again another session. I don't know...
I'll take the names, I guess. And hide them somewhere. Although it's very hard to think of a therapist who wasn't him. I think I'd constantly be thinking "You aren't X. :("
I don't *think* there was anything to be proud of me for. I was petulant and mulish and angry and more angry.
I think there's a heck of a lot to admire in him though, to make such a discussion bearable.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:48:53
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » Dinah, posted by star008 on June 7, 2008, at 2:25:31
It really is. I'm not so good at loss, and I'm horrible at abandonment. I see abandonment and am hurt even when there is no real abandonment. I don't know what I'd do with abandonment from someone who means so much to me.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:50:38
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:38:04
I didn't mean loony bin in any negative sense, of course. It's just a hard topic for me, and it's hard to admit that I'd do anything so extreme in response to losing him.
Posted by muffled on June 7, 2008, at 11:50:59
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:50:38
You have an amazing relationship w/your T.
Of course you would not want to lose it, who would?
Of course it would hurt and at least initially be hard to cope if there was termination.
It is fascinating this attachment.
I miss my T, some parts with a powerful yearning. Other parts don't care and are glad she gone!
The complication of attach they do NOT like. Which is why it hard for me to read of your powerful attach w/yourT.
I am NOT going to attach to newT though parts would wish to, are trying to already. They are desprate and lonely and do not trust me.
Attachment is a minefield.
I think you WERE brave to talk of it.
Maybe desperation born of terror, but still, you did it.
I think its GOOD you guys are talking bout it, cuz who knows. I never thot I'd lv my oldT.
Good to be prepared.
Dunno what I saying, I just wanted to add to your thread cuz I got such huge respect for you and didn't want to not ever post on your threads.
M
Posted by LadyBug on June 7, 2008, at 14:36:11
In reply to Talk of hypothetical termination, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2008, at 20:32:36
I'm right there with you when it comes to loss and abandonment issues. That is one of the biggest reasons I've been seeing my T for over 11 years. I can't bare the thoughts and here I am suffering with both of those isses at the same time. I know it's a hard topic to talk about. I also know that eventually therapy is going to end with termination. I would hope it comes when you are clearly ready and not like my sorry situation. I can't see myself feeling safe ever again talking to my T. And I'll never see another T the rest of my life. This has hurt too much, just as I don't ever want to get married ever again. I was hurt too much there as well.
I trust that you and your T will have a plan in place for what works best for YOU.
Progess, not perfection.
LadyBug
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 14:45:02
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » Dinah, posted by LadyBug on June 7, 2008, at 14:36:11
Well, if I'm really lucky I'll die before he terminates me. One can only hope.
And while we're at it, before anything happens to my husband or to my son.
I'm not taking death lightly, or kidding about it here. It really is my oft stated hope. I'm not saying I'd hurt my son by doing anything intentionally to make it happen.
I know it's kind of extreme, and I hope people aren't angry about it. But it's really how I feel.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 14:55:49
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » Dinah, posted by muffled on June 7, 2008, at 11:50:59
I think it's amazing. I don't have much to compare it to except the first many years. It's come a long way since then.
My therapist *always* talks about it in terms of the time we've put in and all the work we've done.
I don't know if it comes across in print the way it really is. We're both quite fond of boundaries, in some ways. It might come across as more intimate than it really is.
I know this is a scary thread. I was thinking of it as scary in terms of termination. But I suppose it is scary in terms of attachment as well. Being attached gives someone the ability to hurt you. And even if you think you can trust them, they'll still hurt you. Even if you really can trust them, they'll still hurt you.
Posted by star008 on June 7, 2008, at 16:03:41
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » star008, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2008, at 9:48:53
I know waht you mean.. it worries me to to get abandoned.. it worries me that years down the line T will retire and I will lose him. Right now i think you gotta just trust in waht he says and try to push the bad thoughts out.. If they keep intruding then talk about them again and again if you need to. I am guessing that it comes from an inner kid who got abandoned and that she gets really scared.. beleive me, i understand..
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2008, at 11:22:18
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » Dinah, posted by star008 on June 7, 2008, at 16:03:41
I do have things in my early childhood that probably could have been experienced as abandonment. My mother took me and left my father to go over a thousand miles away to live with her parents, then left me there with my grandparents (who I didn't know at the time) for at least a month while she went back to pack up. Then later they reconciled and took me back here from the grandmother I'd come to rely on for the two years we lived with her.
All that was before I was five, and as I recalled it didn't much bother me. I don't remember having strong feelings about it.
But definitely there could have been some underlying fears there. Especially since people don't really discuss things with toddlers and preschoolers.
Or I could just be hardwired to be sensitive to rejection. Didn't they do infant studies that showed that?
Or some combination.
Fortunately I feel totally secure with my husband. I can't even imagine being married to someone I couldn't trust not to abandon me.
Posted by backseatdriver on June 9, 2008, at 12:47:48
In reply to Re: Talk of hypothetical termination » star008, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2008, at 11:22:18
Just wanted to chime in, to say that even though is SUCH a scary thread, there is also a lot of real passion here. There's no deadness, no blankness, no indifference. As someone who struggles with a dense depression, I think passionate attachments are huge achievements. Even if they hurt.
Posted by Dinah on June 9, 2008, at 22:07:46
In reply to So much *passion* here, so much *life*, posted by backseatdriver on June 9, 2008, at 12:47:48
You've got a point there. It reminds me of the pdoc who told me that I would never feel deeply about anything, and not to be upset about that because it was just who I was. In fact, it was information my therapist gave him that made him think that.
I am guessing my therapist would no longer believe that.
In theory, I think I distrust passion. Or at least unsafe passion. I like a nice calm comfy attachment. But I suppose I can get pretty passionate if that nice calm comfy attachment is threatened. :)
Posted by sassyfrancesca on June 10, 2008, at 9:13:13
In reply to Re: So much *passion* here, so much *life* » backseatdriver, posted by Dinah on June 9, 2008, at 22:07:46
I am the most passionate person I know.
I am passionate about injustice.
I am passionate bout the love I feel for my friends.
I am stubborn and opinionated, LOL
I am passionate about music and dance.
I am passionate bout getting the message out there regarding abuse; since it affects ever 3rd woman in our society (not to mention, children
I am passionately in love with my therapist (took quite a while to broach the subject, and we still talk about it).
I wrote erotic (tasteful) passionate poetry to him
Smiles, Sassy
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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