![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 51. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 8:17:49
I don't know if this subject belongs here or not; so hope it is okay.
Some of you know that I've been in love with my t for 4 years, but haven't acted on my feelings....which is miracle...since he has been leading me on.
I just had to get this out......last night he was stroking his leg and upper thigh; my reaction was to laugh really hard; I felt embarrassed, confused and unfortunately turned-on......(after 3 years with no sex...arrghhh).
Anyway, he asked if it was "distracting/disrespectful" etc....I couldn't say anything, and needed to process the flood of feelings.
Next week I intend to tell him that his behavior was provocative and an invitation....to touch him...I read in a body-language book that when you touch yourself, you are sending an invitation that that is where you want that person to touch you.
So, just had to get that out; it had me shook up.
Thoughts, reactions would be much appreciated. There is no one else for me to discuss this with.
I am also going to tell him that unless he wants me to touch HIM, to NOT stroke himself again in my presence.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by Wittgensteinz on September 17, 2008, at 9:19:49
In reply to T Touching Himself, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 8:17:49
Sassy,
I can understand your reaction - when I was at university my first year tutor would rub his thighs with his hands and fidget with his hands in his pockets - I had either one-on-one tutorials with him or along with another female student - that was awkward enough and I didn't have any feelings toward him - after a while I joked about it with the other student and we soon had great difficulty not cracking up during the tutorials. It was odd as this man was not creepy or perverse in any other way as far as I could see. Perhaps just a bad habit.
As for you and your T, I can't imagine how awkward that must have felt - especially given the history and the nature of the situation. Did he offer an explanation for his behaviour? Did he just keep on doing it after you reacted? Was it something unconscious do you think or something calculated? Has he done anything like this before? If he's always fidgeting or moving about in his seat, then maybe it wasn't meant in the way you feel it was. Is this a switch from verbal suggestion to gestural suggestion? Or was it something simple - that he had an itch, was uncomfortable or cold and was inadvertently smoothing his legs.
I think it can be that a person touching their body in a certain way in the presence of another is a provocative act to get a physical response - but this is just one possibility - we touch ourselves for many reasons - for example, holding our fingers to our mouths when feeing anxious or uncertain, fiddling with ones hair or clothes when nervous... or suggestive stroking. It's a pity you couldn't have another T to help you analyse your current T's behaviour.
If I were you, I'd be scared where this could lead - what it will open up. That said, there's blatantly a huge elephant in the room that needs to be tackled sooner or later - would his actions here be a good way to start? Is it possible to have a blunt and honest conversation about all that's going on in the room but isn't being spoken?
That fact he asked if it was 'disrespectful' is interesting - why would you ask that if you were just inadvertantly scratching your leg - it does make it sound like he was doing something more calculated/conscious. (Hmm.. then again, that could be a T's response if a client caught him yawning...).
Witti
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 10:23:41
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself, posted by Wittgensteinz on September 17, 2008, at 9:19:49
> Sassy,
>
Hey, Witti:> I can understand your reaction - when I was at university my first year tutor would rub his thighs with his hands and fidget with his hands in his pockets - I had either one-on-one tutorials with him or along with another female student - that was awkward enough and I didn't have any feelings toward him - after a while I joked about it with the other student and we soon had great difficulty not cracking up during the tutorials. It was odd as this man was not creepy or perverse in any other way as far as I could see. Perhaps just a bad habit.
Yup, that might have made me twitch, LOL!
>
> As for you and your T, I can't imagine how awkward that must have felt - especially given the history and the nature of the situation. Absolutely!Did he offer an explanation for his behaviour? Actually, I asked him and he said: "It feels good." Sheesh....I imagine master****** would feel good too, but he wouldn't do that in front of me!
Did he just keep on doing it after you reacted? He stopped.
Was it something unconscious do you think or something calculated?
I almost think it was calculated.
Has he done anything like this before?
Oh, Witti; if you only knew.....years of sexual innuendo, then he goes into his professional mode; very confusing.
If he's always fidgeting or moving about in his seat, then maybe it wasn't meant in the way you feel it was.
No he isn't always, but he strokes his face, hair, the lace on the table, LOL; he is (as he says) "very tactile."
Is this a switch from verbal suggestion to gestural suggestion?
No....he has done something else I always thought sexually provocative....making his tongue go back and forth; I ignore it.
Or was it something simple - that he had an itch, was uncomfortable or cold and was inadvertently smoothing his legs.
Nope, he just said "it feels good."
>
> I think it can be that a person touching their body in a certain way in the presence of another is a provocative act to get a physical response - but this is just one possibility - we touch ourselves for many reasons - for example, holding our fingers to our mouths when feeing anxious or uncertain, fiddling with ones hair or clothes when nervous... or suggestive stroking.This was definitely "suggestive stroking.:
efiIt's a pity you couldn't have another T to help you analyse your current T's behaviour. Absolutely! LOL
>
> If I were you, I'd be scared where this could lead - what it will open up. That said, there's blatantly a huge elephant in the room that needs to be tackled sooner or laterI certainly know that. I have a whole speech ready...as in....how could you lead me on....and how if he was in love with me and struggling with his feelings, I would forgive that, BUT, if (as he says) he has a happy marriage; that means he was exploiting and using me. I won't forgive that.
eona- would his actions here be a good way to start? Is it possible to have a blunt and honest conversation about all that's going on in the room but isn't being spoken?
Not ready for all of that yet, but I WILL talk to him about the stroking thing and tell him just how it made me feel.
>
> That fact he asked if it was 'disrespectful' is interesting - why would you ask that if you were just inadvertantly scratching your leg - it does make it sound like he was doing something more calculated/conscious.It seems that way. After, all he KNEW what he was doing; it was not subconscious.
(Hmm.. then again, that could be a T's response if a client caught him yawning...).
We shall see next week (oh, 2 weeks ago, he threw me on the couch 7-8 times).
He had said: "I am a fantastic kisser" and "I can go all night long." Now, how professional is THAT...and as far as I am concerned that is an invitation for me to find out (although I know he would deny that).....for what reason, do I have to know that!
Thanks so much for your good input, ((Witti))
Hugs, Sassy
>
> Witti
>
>
Posted by raisinb on September 17, 2008, at 11:45:14
In reply to T Touching Himself, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 8:17:49
Good grief, this sounds incredibly inappropriate. I understand how scared and uncomfortable you must have felt. I'm not sure I could've even stayed for the rest of the discussion. I hope you work things out and figure out what was going on; I know how important he is to you, and it is so important not to see your therapist as teasing, manipulative, or self-indulgent.
Posted by JayJ on September 17, 2008, at 11:57:40
In reply to T Touching Himself, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 8:17:49
Hi Sassy, You seem to be in a _really_ tough situation, I feel so bad for you. I'm sure you've read all the articles out there about how very damaging a sexual relationship with your T can be. Despite that, a part of you clearly is leaning that way. This is of course true for many if not most at some point in therapy, the sexual transference issue looms large. It is entirely your Ts responsibility to make sure this does not get acted on, no matter what you do or say or what his counter-transference feelings are. This is his professional role. To cross that line puts you as patient at extreme jeopardy, not to mention threatening his own carreer, and if he means anything he says, his marriage too. It sounds like his words and deeds are already well over the normal boundaries. The truth is, you should probably walk away and report him. However, I suspect, given the other ties, that you don't want to hear that, and I do understand. So, it sounds like you should try to dampen his ardour without alienating him. For your future well-being, I think you need to find some face-saving way for him to slow down and turn around. I would suggest you don't say "unless he wants me to touch HIM, to NOT stroke himself again in my presence" this is just opening the door for him to show he means it. You might imply that you are thinking of getting a friendly second opinion on how you are doing in therapy, from a pdoc or some such, or perhaps a just talking about your therapy to a "therapist friend". That should put some fear and perhaps sense of responsibility into him. The reality is, he should be seeking some counselling for himself, although that may not be easy to suggest.
It's not a pleasant alternative, but I suppose you could always claim to be HIV positive - that might cool him off a bit.
Sassy please be careful. You have entrusted him with the core of your existence and he doesn't seem to be taking very good care of it.
Love
JayJ
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 12:17:10
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » sassyfrancesca, posted by raisinb on September 17, 2008, at 11:45:14
> Good grief, this sounds incredibly inappropriate. Yes, but he has been inappropriate for so long, LOL!
I understand how scared and uncomfortable you must have felt. Yes, I wasn't sure why he was doing that.
I'm not sure I could've even stayed for the rest of the discussion. I hope you work things out and figure out what was going on; I know how important he is to you, and it is so important not to see your therapist as teasing, manipulative, or self-indulgent.
Thankyou, sweetie!
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 12:17:50
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » Wittgensteinz, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 10:23:41
Hey Sassy,
It is clear that he is attracted to you, you know that, I am wondering why you continue to post what he does? You know what he is doing it wrong, I am just wondering do you need validation on what he is doing is wrong or validation that he cares for you?
One thing I learned the hard way about my old T, is that I do really want to be with a guy who goes against ethical rules of his career and moral rules in regards to his marriage. I think any therapist who does this is nothing but a creep and a slimeball. They are using their position to take advantage of those who come to them, who trust them to help them. It reminds me of a parent child molester who uses their own child to satisfy their own needs. A child of corse trust a parent and thinks the abuse is love from the parent because they know no other love.
Sassy, you are single, attractive, and interesting, you could get a much better man than the one you say you are in love with. Something I want to ask you, is why don't you feel you deserve better? The one guy you mentioned you were married to was abusive, so I wonder have you ever experienced real love that wasn't abusive or against the rules?
One thing for me that has helped me break those emotional chains is distance from my old T and to get another T to help me break those chains of obsessive thoughts about them. I absolutely hate what this guy is doing to you, you really need help to get a objective view of what is going on. You may even find your feelings of being in love is something else.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 12:27:03
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » sassyfrancesca, posted by JayJ on September 17, 2008, at 11:57:40
> Hi Sassy,
Hi, ((JayJ))): You seem to be in a _really_ tough situation, I feel so bad for you. I'm sure you've read all the articles out there about how very damaging a sexual relationship with your T can be.
Oh, absolutely, books and articles.Despite that, a part of you clearly is leaning that way.
Yes, for a verrry long time.
This is of course true for many if not most at some point in therapy, the sexual transference issue looms large. It is entirely your Ts responsibility to make sure this does not get acted on, no matter what you do or say or what his counter-transference feelings are. This is his professional role. To cross that line puts you as patient at extreme jeopardy, not to mention threatening his own carreer, and if he means anything he says, his marriage too.
He says he is "happily married"---but I know if that were the case with me....I would not be acting out.
It sounds like his words and deeds are already well over the normal boundaries. yes.
The truth is, you should probably walk away and report him. However, I suspect, given the other ties, that you don't want to hear that, and I do understand. So, it sounds like you should try to dampen his ardour without alienating him. For your future well-being, I think you need to find some face-saving way for him to slow down and turn around. I would suggest you don't say "unless he wants me to touch HIM, to NOT stroke himself again in my presence" this is just opening the door for him to show he means it.
Oh, I know; I wasn't going to say that; but it was kind of an in-your-fac kind of response.
You might imply that you are thinking of getting a friendly second opinion on how you are doing in therapy, from a pdoc or some such, or perhaps a just talking about your therapy to a "therapist friend". That should put some fear and perhaps sense of responsibility into him.
It would surprise him for sure.
The reality is, he should be seeking some counselling for himself, although that may not be easy to suggest.
He should have done that years ago, when he began to sexualize our relationship.
The ironic thing is that even tho i am in love with him, I have not acted on my feelings....even tho he has led me on shamelessly!
>
> It's not a pleasant alternative, but I suppose you could always claim to be HIV positive - that might cool him off a bit. Ha, ha!
>
> Sassy please be careful. You have entrusted him with the core of your existence and he doesn't seem to be taking very good care of it.Thankyou, JayJ; you are very right-on....and kind!
Love, Sassy
>
> Love
>
> JayJ
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 12:31:39
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » sassyfrancesca, posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 12:17:50
> Hey Sassy,
Hey, twin!
>
> It is clear that he is attracted to you, you know that, I am wondering why you continue to post what he does? You know what he is doing it wrong, I am just wondering do you need validation on what he is doing is wrong or validation that he cares for you?I guess validation that he is being unethical; it is SO confusing, because he mixes professionalism with the come-ons. Kind of like being gas-lighted, ya know?
>
> One thing I learned the hard way about my old T, is that I do really want to be with a guy who goes against ethical rules of his career and moral rules in regards to his marriage. I think any therapist who does this is nothing but a creep and a slimeball. They are using their position to take advantage of those who come to them, who trust them to help them. It reminds me of a parent child molester who uses their own child to satisfy their own needs. A child of corse trust a parent and thinks the abuse is love from the parent because they know no other love.I agree.
>
> Sassy, you are single, attractive, and interesting, you could get a much better man than the one you say you are in love with.Alone for 3 years, cannot even find a guy friend, so my t is the only "man" in my life. If I met a man, I could walk away.
Something I want to ask you, is why don't you feel you deserve better? The one guy you mentioned you were married to was abusive, so I wonder have you ever experienced real love that wasn't abusive or against the rules?
No, I never have.
> One thing for me that has helped me break those emotional chains is distance from my old T and to get another T to help me break those chains of obsessive thoughts about them. I absolutely hate what this guy is doing to you,
Thankyou, sweetie!
you really need help to get a objective view of what is going on. You may even find your feelings of being in love is something else.
>
Well in a few months, I have to tell him I cannot see him anymore....no money.Thanks for caring, twin....
Love, Sassy
>
Posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 12:32:23
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » sassyfrancesca, posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 12:17:50
Sassy,
Sorry if my responses hurt you, I know I am blunt to the point sometimes, but I care about you, and truly want the best for you. I just had to say what I felt and I hope you know that I have your best interests in mind.
Posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 12:35:53
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself, posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 12:32:23
Would you like someone to turn him in for his unethical behavior? Just wondering...
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 13:26:52
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself, posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 12:35:53
> Would you like someone to turn him in for his unethical behavior? Just wondering...
No, I have to handle this myself....Thanks, though.
Posted by lucie lu on September 17, 2008, at 13:54:23
In reply to T Touching Himself, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 8:17:49
Sassy, after damping down my first reaction to his behavior... I began to think about what this adds to an already complex situation. First, there's the elephant in the room. Second, there's the recent money thing, which it looks like may mean you having to go on your knees to him and ask for his largesse. Now this.
When I add all this up, I see it putting you not only further into a great state of inner frustration, but worse - frankly, I find it very hard to add this all up in any way that does not come up with the ultimate boundary crossing. I am really very worried for you, Sassy. You have already endured a highly frustrating and very unequal relationship with him for years, which on some level must leave you feeling disempowered at best, maybe demeaned at worst. You have been through a nightmare of a long, abusive marriage, and from what you say, this guy has been the only one in your eyes since your divorce. There must be still a lot stored up from that marriage that would likely get dumped on top of the detritus of this situation, if anything did happen. Plus you are potentially financially dependent on him if you want to continue seeing him. What a powder keg.
Sassy, I really understand how hard it must be when you are deeply attached to someone to purposefully detach from there for the sake of your own safety and welfare. Especially where you're still so vulnerable after your divorce. But I just keep seeing you right between the cross-hairs and it scares me.
What if you do get some consultation? Maybe you can find a place with a sliding fee scale, so you might be able to continue being seen on a continuing basis, "apres la deluge." And, as others have said, it is obvious that you are single, personally attractive, intelligent and interesting. You know it is very hard to encounter new guy possibilities when you are emotionally involved with someone else. I'll bet you'd find, once the baggage room got cleared out, that you'd have them lining up to get to know you :)
(((((((((Sassy))))))))))
I only want the best for you and to see you safe.
- Lucie
Posted by JayMac on September 17, 2008, at 14:17:44
In reply to T Touching Himself, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 8:17:49
Hi Sassy,
I'm really glad you made this post. I think it is brave of you to make us aware of the severity of the problem. Your T is irresponsible, unethical, and NOT WORTHY OF YOUR TRUST. He is most definitely undeserving of your money as well. Please don't take this post harshly. Your T's behavior is not about what you are or are not doing, it's about him! You are NOT responsible for how HE reacts.Fortunately, you have the power to act on this. You have the power to make things different. While I understand you want to confront him, I don't know if that would change the dynamics between you two. Has it changed things in the past? In my opinion, I think you need to distance yourself from your current T, and immediately have a new T in place so you can work this out.
Your T's behavior is seriously damaging!! Whether or not you like it, your T's motives are not in YOUR best interest. None of this is not your fault!! No one deserves this type of treatment! No one!
Are you ready to make a change? When will his behavior be enough for you to get out? You are worth it.
Many, many hugs to you! Take good care!
JayMac
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 14:59:40
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself, posted by lucie lu on September 17, 2008, at 13:54:23
> Lucie: You are very sweet and kind and you DO get it!
Sassy, after damping down my first reaction to his behavior... I began to think about what this adds to an already complex situation. First, there's the elephant in the room. Exactly.
Second, there's the recent money thing, which it looks like may mean you having to go on your knees to him and ask for his largesse. Now this.
I know; it just keeps on coming, LOL!
>
> When I add all this up, I see it putting you not only further into a great state of inner frustration, but worse - frankly, I find it very hard to add this all up in any way that does not come up with the ultimate boundary crossing. I am really very worried for you, Sassy.(((Thankyou))).
You have already endured a highly frustrating and very unequal relationship with him for years, which on some level must leave you feeling disempowered at best, maybe demeaned at worst. You have been through a nightmare of a long, abusive marriage, and from what you say, this guy has been the only one in your eyes since your divorce.
There was another guy 2 years ago; we were making plans for a trip and possibly marriage; he disappeared without one word, and I had to process that (took over a year); I had written my t a letter about leaving him; so I had been preparing for that.
freThere must be still a lot stored up from that marriage that would likely get dumped on top of the detritus of this situation, if anything did happen. Plus you are potentially financially dependent on him if you want to continue seeing him. What a powder keg.
Exactly (ka-boom)>>
>
> Sassy, I really understand how hard it must be when you are deeply attached to someone to purposefully detach from there for the sake of your own safety and welfare. Especially where you're still so vulnerable after your divorce. But I just keep seeing you right between the cross-hairs and it scares me.
>
> What if you do get some consultation? That is a good idea; actually I have looked around for another t to bounce things off; actually written to some, and they answered that they have no expertise in this kind of thing, and I am not surprised. I educated myself quite a bit.Maybe you can find a place with a sliding fee scale, so you might be able to continue being seen on a continuing basis, "apres la deluge." And, as others have said, it is obvious that you are single, personally attractive, intelligent and interesting. You know it is very hard to encounter new guy possibilities when you are emotionally involved with someone else.
Actually, it would be easy if I could find someone; I date, etc......
I'll bet you'd find, once the baggage room got cleared out, that you'd have them lining up to get to know you :)
you are very sweet and kind!
Thankyou so much!
Love, Sassy
>
> (((((((((Sassy))))))))))
>
> I only want the best for you and to see you safe.
>
> - Lucie
>
>
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 15:04:33
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself, posted by JayMac on September 17, 2008, at 14:17:44
> Hi Sassy,
Hi, ((JayMac)))): You are a sweetie, and so right!
> I'm really glad you made this post. I think it is brave of you to make us aware of the severity of the problem. Thankyou......if I told you all of the things he has said and done, you would be shocked; that is why I don't mention them!Your T is irresponsible, unethical, and NOT WORTHY OF YOUR TRUST. He is most definitely undeserving of your money as well. Please don't take this post harshly. I don't at all ((JayMac))).
Your T's behavior is not about what you are or are not doing, it's about him! You are NOT responsible for how HE reacts.
Yes, I know that, he CHOOSES his behavior.
>
> Fortunately, you have the power to act on this. You have the power to make things different. While I understand you want to confront him, I don't know if that would change the dynamics between you two. Has it changed things in the past? In my opinion, I think you need to distance yourself from your current T, and immediately have a new T in place so you can work this out.I know.
>
> Your T's behavior is seriously damaging!! i can't tell you how many times I have confronted him in the past, when he said or did something that was painful. I am not shy to speak up.Whether or not you like it, your T's motives are not in YOUR best interest. None of this is not your fault!! No one deserves this type of treatment! No one!
>
> Are you ready to make a change? When will his behavior be enough for you to get out? You are worth it.Well, in a few months, I will have to tell him I cannot see him anymore. I know I should have that conversation now, but I am overwhelmed.
>
> Many, many hugs to you! Take good care!
> JayMacMany, many hugs to you, too.......sweetie!
Love, Alice
Posted by Wittgensteinz on September 17, 2008, at 17:03:35
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » Wittgensteinz, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 17, 2008, at 10:23:41
Sassy,
The violations of professionalism are clear - goes without saying.
I feel very sorry and sad for you. This is a man you love and *trust*? Perhaps you are dependent on him in some ways. At the very least you are clearly strongly attached. Yet he is exploiting (abusing?) you, degrading you - what a horrible, selfish thing to do - what a terrible situation to be in. I think you are in a very vulnerable position and I really hope things don't decline further. How can you keep things safe? How can he keep things safe? What obligations does he feel he has to you and your care/treatment?
I get the feeling if it weren't for your self-control, things would already have descended into a clearly unethical relationship between you and him (not to say that there haven't already been violations on his part). Surely this is a huge burden on you, given the way you feel toward him. At the same time, perhaps the excitement of this married man clearly being turned on/aroused by you is hard to bring to a close - perhaps in a way there is some masochism at play - self-punishment on your part??
I certainly feel an ambiguity regarding my T and what I rationally know is for my own good and what emotionally I sometimes wish for. It shouldn't be for the patient to decipher between these two things, while the T can do what he whims.
It should be the role of the therapist to practice self-control/self-containment, not that of the patient.
Your T threw you onto the couch 7/8 times??? And the other things you mention are creepy and slimy. Are you at all scared when you are there with him? Is there a risk that he would physically hurt you or force himself onto you? Please don't put yourself at that risk.
I'm so sorry he is doing this to you - this isn't how you should be treated - you know this of course.
I hope you can at least start to talk about this with him and that things remain safe and under control.
((((SassyFrancesca)))))
Posted by rskontos on September 17, 2008, at 17:29:22
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » sassyfrancesca, posted by Wittgensteinz on September 17, 2008, at 17:03:35
Sassy,
I have read your assessments and questions about your t for awhile now. I haven't responded much because I don't any experience with transference so I did not feel qualified to give much of an answer. However a pattern seems to be emerging with respect to your T. Remember not too long when you were presenting or going to the APA Hawaii convention and he claimed he never led you on. And how upset you were?
IMHO, he is playing a cat and mouse game with you. He baits and retracts with this flirtatious game and when you sometimes ask him directly he denies it.
He is dangerous and this is a dangerous game. You have posted in anguish about your situation. It just doesn't seem healthy to me. Now I am no expert. But I feel he has hurt you tremendously and the game he is playing is so potentially damaging to you. You are worthy of so much more. He has violated his professional ethics yet will not own up to it. He toys with your affections and no where do I see how it is therapuetic only seems to be something to booster his own ego.
Please please please take care of yourself in this ploy of his for that is what I feel it is and you are at risk.
I care about the damage he has done and the damage he can do in the future or may be doing as we speak.
You deserve a T that treats you safely not like this.
And you deserve peace from all you have already gone through. It seems to me he is further exposing you to trauma.
Take care my friend.
rsk
Posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 22:04:53
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself/sassy, posted by rskontos on September 17, 2008, at 17:29:22
I think there is more to think about Sassy than is he attracted to you or is he being ethical.
You mentioned you have never had a "healthy" relationship of romantic love. So in a way you know your T is being unethical, but in a way you still want him anyway. You stayed in a unhealthy and abusive marriage for many years, even though the physical intimacy was good. I wonder how this relationship started with your ex. Did it start as very sexual? Maybe that is the only way you know how get a man is through sexual advances.
You have to admit you have tempted your T in many ways, and he is showing his natural reaction to this, but he still needs to keep his tongue in his mouth anyway. Your relationship is very sexualized with him, and I wonder if that component was taken away, what would be the attraction then?
You have fell in love with you ex too, so maybe who you are being attracted to has to do with your past. It took a long time for you to leave your marriage, and it seems like you have been dealing with this unethical T for a long time too.There most be something inside of you that feels you don't deserve better than unethical T or abusive men or you don't see the abuse till after you fall in love with them. But would you really want to be with a man who comes on to his clients, cheats on his wife? How would that feel if you were with him?
You deserve so much better, and as pretty and attractive you are, you could do much better in the looks department, and with your love and smartness, you could do better than him in the personal moral department, than being with your T.
I know the "unforbidden" is a quite a rush of excitement, but what follows whether he acts on his attraction or not,it will still be hurtful to you either way eventually.
One poster said how can you look for a man, when you are wrapped up so much with your T and want him? I am sure that is preventing you from meeting a good man for you.I know all of this hurts like hell, but I would like to see you leave the relationship for you. I don't care if he is happily married or not, what he is doing with you is not only harmful to you, but it is disrespectful to his wife. If he acts on this in the wrong way, he will not only lose his wife, his church, and his career and I think eventually you.
I really wish you could find another T, because it doesn't seem he is really helping you anymore, maybe a lot at first. I remembered you said you haven't cried in years. Shouldn't he know this and work on this with you? It seems you have more therapy to do, but with all this stuff between both you and him, I don't see how you have a chance to work on you.
Sassy, it would be good to look into why you are falling in love with men who are abusing you. It is uncommon I know, but I suspect there is something to all of this. We all tell you that you deserve better, but do you believe it?((((((Sassy Twin)))))
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 18, 2008, at 7:31:00
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself » sassyfrancesca, posted by Wittgensteinz on September 17, 2008, at 17:03:35
> Sassy,
>
> The violations of professionalism are clear - goes without saying. Yes, I do know that ((Witti))
>
> I feel very sorry and sad for you. Thankyou..... This is a man you love and *trust*? Unfortunately, yes.Perhaps you are dependent on him in some ways. Yes, I am. He is the only man in my life (although i sure am trying to meet someone else!)
At the very least you are clearly strongly attached. Yet he is exploiting (abusing?) you, degrading you - what a horrible, selfish thing to do -Yes, selfish......
what a terrible situation to be in. I think you are in a very vulnerable position and I really hope things don't decline further. How can you keep things safe? How can he keep things safe? What obligations does he feel he has to you and your care/treatment?
Hard to say; he actually said last week that he "didn't want to hurt me." duhhhh......
>
> I get the feeling if it weren't for your self-control, things would already have descended into a clearly unethical relationship between you and him (not to say that there haven't already been violations on his part).Yes, it is ironic; I am the client and can behave any way I want, but haven't crossed any boundaries (well, I like to tease him and bump into him sometimes...but I do that with everyone)....and HE is the t and is subject to rules and ethics, etc.
Surely this is a huge burden on you, given the way you feel toward him. At the same time, perhaps the excitement of this married man clearly being turned on/aroused by you is hard to bring to a close - perhaps in a way there is some masochism at play - self-punishment on your part??
I don't think so; if I were not in love with him, I would just blow off his behavior.
>
> I certainly feel an ambiguity regarding my T and what I rationally know is for my own good and what emotionally I sometimes wish for. It shouldn't be for the patient to decipher between these two things, while the T can do what he whims.Absolutely!
>
> It should be the role of the therapist to practice self-control/self-containment, not that of the patient.
>
> Your T threw you onto the couch 7/8 times??? And the other things you mention are creepy and slimy. Are you at all scared when you are there with him?No, never.
Is there a risk that he would physically hurt you or force himself onto you?
He hasn't in all of the years I've been with him, so I am not concerned about that.
Please don't put yourself at that risk.
>
> I'm so sorry he is doing this to you - this isn't how you should be treated - you know this of course.
>
> I hope you can at least start to talk about this with him and that things remain safe and under control.I will be telling him next week about how what he did made me feel. I still feel angry about it. It was just blatant.
(((Witti))): Thank you for caring.
Sassy
>
> ((((SassyFrancesca)))))
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 18, 2008, at 7:36:27
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself/sassy, posted by rskontos on September 17, 2008, at 17:29:22
> Sassy,
>
(((rsk))): You are very dear and ALL of your assessments about what is transpiring with my t are absolutely....dead on!> I have read your assessments and questions about your t for awhile now. I haven't responded much because I don't any experience with transference so I did not feel qualified to give much of an answer. However a pattern seems to be emerging with respect to your T. Remember not too long when you were presenting or going to the APA Hawaii convention and he claimed he never led you on. And how upset you were?
Yes, he told me he saw me 5 times at the convention, and was looking for me at the dance; sheesh....he wouldn't SPEAK to me (ethics), but he WOULD have danced with me if he found me? Boy is that twisted!?
>
> IMHO, he is playing a cat and mouse game with you. He baits and retracts with this flirtatious game and when you sometimes ask him directly he denies it.Yes, I call it come here go away......
>
> He is dangerous and this is a dangerous game. You have posted in anguish about your situation.Anguish is the perfect word for how I feel.
It just doesn't seem healthy to me. Now I am no expert. But I feel he has hurt you tremendously and the game he is playing is so potentially damaging to you. You are worthy of so much more. He has violated his professional ethics yet will not own up to it. He toys with your affections and no where do I see how it is therapuetic only seems to be something to booster his own ego.
i have said that many times.....his ego.
>
> Please please please take care of yourself in this ploy of his for that is what I feel it is and you are at risk.
>
> I care about the damage he has done and the damage he can do in the future or may be doing as we speak.
>
> You deserve a T that treats you safely not like this.
>
> And you deserve peace from all you have already gone through. It seems to me he is further exposing you to trauma.
>
> Take care my friend.Thank YOU my friend....for your caring, hepful words.
Hugs, Sassy
>
> rsk
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 18, 2008, at 7:47:23
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself/sassy, posted by lemonaide on September 17, 2008, at 22:04:53
> I think there is more to think about Sassy than is he attracted to you or is he being ethical.
(((Twin))):
>
> You mentioned you have never had a "healthy" relationship of romantic love. So in a way you know your T is being unethical, but in a way you still want him anyway. You stayed in a unhealthy and abusive marriage for many years, even though the physical intimacy was good. I wonder how this relationship started with your ex. Did it start as very sexual?Eventually it went to the sexual, but not right away.
Maybe that is the only way you know how get a man is through sexual advances. No, that wasn't what happened. I had other relationships that were not sexual (brought up very strict, LOL!)
> You have to admit you have tempted your T in many ways, and he is showing his natural reaction to this, but he still needs to keep his tongue in his mouth anyway. Your relationship is very sexualized with him, and I wonder if that component was taken away, what would be the attraction then?Unfortunately, HE is the one who sexualized it. He should have kept his attraction invisible to me and done his homework. If that "component" were taken away, I would still love him.
> You have fell in love with you ex too, so maybe who you are being attracted to has to do with your past.Nope, never was in love with the ex; married him for security.
It took a long time for you to leave your marriage, and it seems like you have been dealing with this unethical T for a long time too. Absolutely.
>
> There most be something inside of you that feels you don't deserve better than unethical T or abusive men or you don't see the abuse till after you fall in love with them. But would you really want to be with a man who comes on to his clients, cheats on his wife? How would that feel if you were with him? Oh, I agree.> You deserve so much better, and as pretty and attractive you are, you could do much better in the looks department, and with your love and smartness, you could do better than him in the personal moral department, than being with your T.
I know ((twin))..
> I know the "unforbidden" is a quite a rush of excitement, but what follows whether he acts on his attraction or not,it will still be hurtful to you either way eventually.
> One poster said how can you look for a man, when you are wrapped up so much with your T and want him? I am sure that is preventing you from meeting a good man for you.No, it isn't.....I met a man 2 years ago (we were talking marriage), and wrote a letter to my t about leaving.....then this man disappeared without a word; took me over a year to get over that. So, of course I stayed with my t.
>
> I know all of this hurts like hell, but I would like to see you leave the relationship for you. I don't care if he is happily married or not, what he is doing with you is not only harmful to you, but it is disrespectful to his wife. If he acts on this in the wrong way, he will not only lose his wife, his church, and his career and I think eventually you.
> I really wish you could find another T, because it doesn't seem he is really helping you anymore, maybe a lot at first. I remembered you said you haven't cried in years. Shouldn't he know this and work on this with you?I will mention it.
It seems you have more therapy to do, but with all this stuff between both you and him, I don't see how you have a chance to work on you.
Actually, I realize I really don't have anything to work on (except the excruciating lonliness)....
and no one can really do anything about that.> Sassy, it would be good to look into why you are falling in love with men who are abusing you. Well, when I fell in love with him, he wasn't abusive.
It is uncommon I know, but I suspect there is something to all of this. We all tell you that you deserve better, but do you believe it?((((((Sassy Twin)))))
Yes, I think I do! I keep going places when I can, and dating occasionally, but have not found a man to even be friends with (which is what I want initially)....
((((Twin)))
Thank you for caring...Sassy
Posted by Geegee on September 18, 2008, at 10:01:54
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself/sassy » lemonaide, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 18, 2008, at 7:47:23
Hi,
Perhaps you could ask him how the behavior you describe fits into your treatment plan. I doubt there's a ready answer for this, but it could get you two talking about what is and what is not effective in your therapy, assuming that this is something that's ineffective that you want changed, that is.Just a thought. I like the idea of printing out this thread and bringing it in for him, too.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2008, at 10:22:58
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself/sassy » sassyfrancesca, posted by Geegee on September 18, 2008, at 10:01:54
I really like that idea, gg.
It would help him think about his behavior in therapeutic terms. I'd be interested in hearing his answer.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 18, 2008, at 10:24:47
In reply to Re: T Touching Himself/sassy » sassyfrancesca, posted by Geegee on September 18, 2008, at 10:01:54
> Hi,
Hi, Geegee: That is an excellent idea!
yes, and I should give him a copy of the thread.
Thanks, sweetie!
Hugs, Sassy
> Perhaps you could ask him how the behavior you describe fits into your treatment plan. I doubt there's a ready answer for this, but it could get you two talking about what is and what is not effective in your therapy, assuming that this is something that's ineffective that you want changed, that is.
>
> Just a thought. I like the idea of printing out this thread and bringing it in for him, too.
>
> Take care,
>
> gg
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