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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
"Deep down, you really are OK."My therapist said this to me today.
It isn't the first time he has said it. But he has been saying it more frequently lately. He said it at the end of the session, as part of his reassurance that I'd be fine during his vacation. It always lands kind of funny - like I believe him, I am OK, and at the same time, I want to sort of screech - "are you kidding? You've been listening, right?"
So he called a little bit ago and left a voice mail. He said, "I've been thinking about what I said at the end of the session about you being OK. What I meant was, that who you are now, in your core, is OK - and that things will be OK, even though there are hard parts, because you've built connections and you can live mostly in that place of knowing people love you and care about you." And he said some other stuff and listed some of the people who care and I could tell that he really wanted me to feel OK about being OK.
And I get everything he is saying. I understand that who I am now is OK despite everything that happened that wasn't OK. And that surrounding yourself with those who care and allowing yourself to feel cared for really does help make things OK overall.
So how come I feel crummy and upset now? Why is being OK as truly scary as not being OK?
Posted by seldomseen on January 16, 2009, at 8:02:17
In reply to Deep Down, posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
Well, IMO being OK can be just as scary as being not OK.
Being loved and cared for may feel entirely new to you (once it sinks in) and new, even a good new, can be bad.
It's like moving into a new house - yeah it may be nicer with a lot more room, but you still have to figure out the shortest route to the bathroom. At least at the old house you had everything figured out.
For me, it's bittersweet to hear/think/know that I am OK. I think it's for the reasons above, but, to be completely honest, it's scary because what if it means that I won't see my T anymore. EEEK!
Seldom
Posted by Annierose on January 16, 2009, at 10:55:52
In reply to Deep Down, posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
My therapist reminds me of a similar thing - continually - that I am not in that same situation anymore. I am no longer a child who is dependant upon the adults in her life to take care of her. What frightens me the most has already happened and it "CAN'T" hurt me again like it did before.
That stings. Even though our therapists are right, in that as adults we choose supportive friends and can learn how to put boundaries in place to protect our vulnerable parts - however - what leaves me feeling unsettled, is 1. the sense that I am alone in this --- or 2. how come I have to work so hard at doing this ---- or 3. are you telling me that it shouldn't hurt anymore??
Which my t would say, "You are not alone, I am here to help you. I want to help you. I am honored that I get to help you ... blah blah blah." Secondly, "yes, it is hard work to establish new patterns that were put in place as a child." And lastly, "I am not telling you that knowing that you are OKAY right now means that you don't need me anymore. I am reminding you that you are okay so you will hold onto that when you feel that things are spinning out of your control. Remember that."
I always love how your t thinks and re-thinks your sessions after you leave, then has the strength to leave you a message to clarify his original intent. It's almost like he can read your mind ... "I bet Daisy is thinking xyz, I'd better call to make sure she knows I am thinking this ..." I love him for that (and so many other things he does for YOU).
I'm kindof all over the place in this post. I guess what I'm trying to say is that knowing that we are ultimately OKAY doesn't mean that we necessarily feel OKAY moment to moment. It's something we are trying to integrate - or come to know as true - as time goes on in our therapy process. The hurt (trauma) is in the past - even though we feel it lurking around the corner in our daily lives.
Love, Annie
Posted by antigua3 on January 16, 2009, at 11:02:51
In reply to Deep Down, posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
You're braver than I am. I don't like being told I'm OK because it makes me want to scream "No, I'm not!" and think that my pdoc doesn't see it. And to be truthful, a lot of the times he doesn't see it, and I've asked him to quit saying it, probably until I'm ready to admit it to myself.
For me, I'm convinced that I'm aiming toward the secondary gain of therapy w/him. I don't want to be OK because it means I'll be out the door. In my head I know it won't be a re-enacting abandonment, if we handle it correctly. (BTW, this is all in my head; he has no plans for termination, but the part that doesn't like how nice he's being to me wants to push him so very far away.)
I'm glad you feel this. Deep down I feel this too and it is a wonderful feeling, depending on yourself and those around you, but knowing that it is being said to you (me, I mean, I guess) can be really scary.
I hope he's not going to be gone for too long.
antigua
Posted by Phillipa on January 16, 2009, at 13:11:06
In reply to Re: Deep Down » DAisym, posted by antigua3 on January 16, 2009, at 11:02:51
I did that with a husband so good he was to me that I divorced him as wasn't used to being treated well and pdoc at the time brought it up. Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on January 16, 2009, at 13:15:07
In reply to Deep Down, posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
my first thoughts is that the staying ok is harder than not being ok because you've been not ok lomger. does that make sense. it (the being not ok) is the familiar and therefore, easier to do.
rsk
also that accepting the love and care is just plain hard.
Posted by BayLeaf on January 16, 2009, at 19:55:50
In reply to Deep Down, posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
I think I'm hearing that it's hard for you to hear you T say that you are improving. Well, that makes perfect sense, cuz then you'd feel like if that's true then you're "supposed" to diconnect from your T. But, No...that's not true. It's OK to be both connected to your T, AND have good, healthy friendships. Thank your higher power. :-)
Bay
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2009, at 20:34:07
In reply to Deep Down, posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
I get upset too.
"Ok", especially, would feel like it was minimizing the fact that it was still hard, and that I still feel bad sometimes. I guess it depends on whether you consistently *feel* ok. But if someone concentrated on my *doing* rather than my *feeling* I think it would really upset me.
I'm reminded of those studies that show so much improvement with DBT, but the fine print is that the subjects didn't necessarily feel less distress. Or something like that.
But the other thing is... Well, my therapist and I were talking about the related "you're stronger than you think you are". When I asked he said he probably did *think* I was stronger than I thought I was, but that he'd never *say* that to me. :)
When we were talking about why I objected to it, I talked about being afraid I wouldn't need him. But also the overarching feeling when I hear things like that of being so ALONE. Hmmm... I can't quite emphasize that word the right way in type. But there is some visual in my mind of a lone traveler on a road extending to the horizon, with a long shadow being cast. If that makes sense.
And even though he talks of connection and having friendships and support.... Hmmmmm... Again I can't quite put it in words, but there is that vague image in my mind that need is a stronger tie than want. My therapist says it isn't, but I disagree.
Words are so limiting.
Posted by DAisym on January 16, 2009, at 23:57:22
In reply to Re: Deep Down, posted by seldomseen on January 16, 2009, at 8:02:17
I think it is a double EEK for me. He tells me often that we can do good work, even when I feel OK.
I like the house analogy. I'll have to think about this more. I'm not sure bittersweet is what I'm feeling because it isn't like this is a self-discovery. But it is scary to think I might be resisting being OK.
Thanks,
Daisy
Posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 0:11:02
In reply to Re: Deep Down, posted by Annierose on January 16, 2009, at 10:55:52
I think he was trying to tell me exactly what you said, that I'm not a little kids stuck in a bad situation anymore. So even though moments might be bad, over all, I'm OK. I have the power to be OK.
I totally agree with 1 - 3 and my therapist would probably answer as yours did. I'll add another one 4) Since you think I'm OK, now I have to be. To which he would say, "No - but I'm hoping you can have faith that you will be."
I have mixed feelings about the way he seems to think about sessions. I'm really glad he isn't afraid to call me - we've worked together long enough for me to know that it isn't something to expect frequently. But there is a loud voice that says, "you intrude on his time to much - he will get sick of you and dump you because you are too much work."
I over-think things. Bad habit of mine.
Posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 0:45:19
In reply to Re: Deep Down » DAisym, posted by antigua3 on January 16, 2009, at 11:02:51
He is gone for 10 days, which feels like forever.
I know all about worrying about secondary gains, and yet I'm pretty sure that I worry about that way more than my therapist does. I want to be "perfect" even in therapy - which means watching myself around all those boundaries and narcassistic wants and needs.
When I was a kid, I believed that there was this spot inside me that was unreachable by anything outside. I imagined it in my middle, like in the stomach area - and I imagined that this was the spot where I hid the "real" me - the me that wasn't dirty, or at fault. No matter what act was done or what kind of abuse - no matter what orifice something went into - it couldn't touch or taint me. I have no idea why I didn't imagine some secret part of my brain, but I didn't. I think I thought about it like those magician boxes where the assistant is in the box and swords are stuck in all around her, but she isn't hurt. Kind of stupid - but when I told my therapist about it this week, he said, "I like that. A way to keep yourself safe." (and yes, we talked about the swords and how I still think of penises as weapons.)
Maybe this is the piece that is OK - in the same spot, deep down.
Posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 0:46:14
In reply to Re: Deep Down » antigua3, posted by Phillipa on January 16, 2009, at 13:11:06
Sorry. Sounds like it was rough.
Posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 0:56:07
In reply to Re: Deep Down » DAisym, posted by rskontos on January 16, 2009, at 13:15:07
I guess this could be the "Devil you know" - kind of a thing.
But I honestly think that I'm OK with parts of this- that I'm strong and competent and that I don't want to be depressed the rest of my life. And I AM OK in so much of my life.
I'm equally sure that I'm not OK in other parts - sexually I'm a mess and I still have a terrible time with anyone saying good-bye. Ug.
Maybe I'm not anymore or less messed up than anyone else - I'm just more aware of it.
It's all hard, isn't it?
Posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 1:09:41
In reply to Re: Deep Down » DAisym, posted by BayLeaf on January 16, 2009, at 19:55:50
I wonder all the time if I've made any progress at all - I think it must be frustrating for my therapist.
I think a big piece I have to work on is making it OK for me to be connected when I'm feeling OK.
I don't know about thanking my higher power. I'm pretty mad at the Universe right now.
Posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 1:43:03
In reply to Re: Deep Down, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2009, at 20:34:07
Words *are* so limiting. But try to imagine him speaking softly, soothingly - with the emphasis on the YOU. "You really are OK." Didn't feel minimizing.
But it does feel like a lot to live up to. Almost like, if I'm not OK, he'll be disappointed. You are really right - it is very lonely. I think it is a whole new skill - feeling connected and cared for while feeling OK in your life. Maybe it is just that the limits of our relationship are much more clear when he makes a list of the other supports in my life - those friends, etc.
I went to a training today with Peter Fonagy - from the Anna Freud Ctr in England. It was on attachment and mentalization. It was interesting to learn that Mother's are actually better at reading their infant's cues and feel more attached to their babies when the baby is smiling - not when the baby is crying or has a need. So this should tell me that my relationship to my therapist will be closer if I'm OK - which is a good thing.
I think it is just so complicated. What does OK mean? What does it look like? Can it be true one day and not the next?
I'm sure that he meant the OK to mean life in general, -not that I'm happy every minute or perfect everyday. But still - it feels like some new expectation that I have to live up to.
I completely agree about need vs. want. But I also know myself well enough to know that "deserve" is also in this mix. And "shouldn't." I'm envious of people who know how to just reach out and take the support they want without feeling like a big burden on everyone else.
Posted by Dinah on January 17, 2009, at 10:08:31
In reply to Re: Deep Down » Dinah, posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 1:43:03
I totally understand the expectations part. When I was telling my therapist about my efforts at socializing, he was so excited and proud of me. It immediately made me anxious, because I don't like to feel that I need to keep doing that for him to be happy with me.
It may be especially hard for you if you if you were raised with what my husband and I call "the tyranny of high expectations." Our parents were supportive, understanding of our failures, but confident that we would do the right thing, get good grades, etc. They trusted us. We understand the downside to such confidence and support.
Posted by rskontos on January 17, 2009, at 21:08:33
In reply to Re: Deep Down » rskontos, posted by DAisym on January 17, 2009, at 0:56:07
Yup it could be the devil you know thing and again,
you sound good. I mean in a good space. A good aware space. Maybe this what he means.
Most people are clueless how they are in most areas of their lives. They just plod on and on.
Awareness can be good right. and then again, the devil you know crops up.
I think I will be sexually a mess forever. sigh.
Now goodbyes are easy for me. I can say it first.
Oh well. I think you are making good progress.
take care of yourself.I like your t.
rsk
even when he is very thought provoking.
Posted by Kath on January 18, 2009, at 19:43:06
In reply to Deep Down, posted by DAisym on January 15, 2009, at 23:00:12
Hi dear,
Haven't energy to read whole thread. But I'm wondering if it's anything like this:
if you were OK, maybe you would 'graduate' from seeing T. That might feel TOOOOOO scarey to even begin to look at?
luv, Kath
Posted by DAisym on January 19, 2009, at 22:35:14
In reply to Re: Deep Down » DAisym, posted by Dinah on January 17, 2009, at 10:08:31
I have a magnet on my refrig -
"There is no greater burden than immense potential." Linus (from Charlie Brown)
Things have just continued to get worse this weekend. Probably just as well my therapist is gone - I don't think I'd go anyway.
Posted by Dinah on January 19, 2009, at 23:35:30
In reply to Re: Deep Down » Dinah, posted by DAisym on January 19, 2009, at 22:35:14
I'm sorry to hear that. :(
((( Daisy )))
(Would you really not have gone? I always say I won't go, but in truth I never do choose not to go.)
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2009, at 13:13:12
In reply to Re: Deep Down » Dinah, posted by DAisym on January 19, 2009, at 22:35:14
Only once have I not shown up and not called. I was being a brat. No matter how angry I get, I'm usually polite.
But there have been times when I've called and said it was too painful to come. And then not gone. My therapist usually calls to check in when I leave those messages, unless I say, "don't call me." Which I have also done. He always says, "I understand that you need to take a break from this but it usually helps when we talk it out." Interestingly, the last time I really could not go was when we were talking about body image - it was just amazingly painful for me.
I've yet to really figure out what is going on - maybe this is teenage rebellion or maybe it is a bit of, "fine, leave me. Don't need you anyway!"
*sigh*
This is the end of the thread.
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