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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 13:12:52
Hello there. This is my first time posting here. i came across a wonderful thread on this site from back in 2002 that discussed the very issue i am having problems with, or at least i think that's what the problem is, and that is transference. im defining it as an involuntary psychological phenomenom whereby and for whatever reason, one develops an emotional attachment for another person where you come to think of him/her in terms of a surrogate parent. evidently this happens quite often in therapy (which is of some releif i suppose,) but for me it was quite unexpected, especially since i've only been seeing my t for a year and a half. In my eyes (or my sick mind!) my t is the embodiment of someone that would be the best mother in the whole world. the reason this is a problem for me right now is, if i as mjuch as perceive a shift or change in my t's attitude or demeanor towards me, i have kind of like an emotional meltdown as i call it. these meltdowns are harmless to everyone but myself. I punish myself both mentally and physically for having the feelings and do all i can to anesthetize them. The gut wrenching emotions that come if my t is indifferent towards me drive me to engage in all types of destructive and compensatory behaviors in an attempt to quel the wave of anguish and despair that on a cognitive level are totally out of place and proportion. i am a reasonably intelligent person, and i recognize that the emotions i experience when this happens (or i think it does) are from a whole other place and time, and that the very fact that i sometimes re-experience,through the relationship with my t, the intense pain i felt growing up because my bio mom was very unaffectionate, distant, and unavailble to me on so many levels, may actually be an important step towards my recovery. i actually find the whole phenomenon quite curious and interesting, but when you are experiencing it first hand, it can be very difficult to handle, both for myself and probably for my t as well. I am happy to say, though, i have a wonderful t and she's the consummate professional. i doubt she even realizes there are times when her demeanor and attitude towards me changes, resulting in the meltdown and panic. i realize its all subjective, though. she probably doesn't even realize i think of her the way i do, as a surrogate 'good' parent and how emotional that has become for me, especially when i sense its absence. its like i regress to this wounded rejected child who believes her mommie doesn't love her anymore, and that she's done something wrong to cause the change in attitude on the part of the parent. ive only been in therapy for a year and a half, and i never expected that i'd come to think of my t as a mother figure. i mean, ive always thought she was nice and very smart, but not maternal. that sort of developed over time. The relationship or lack thereof with my bio mom so damaged my psyche and has severely impaired my ability to form bonds with other people. it's like when hurts from the past are relived, the mind doesn't know "is this live or is it Memorex?", so i can have these spontaneous negative reactions if i so much as perceive indifference from my t towards me. anyway, wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone might wanna talk abt it. i really want to understand the shame that seemns to come along with having these unresolved 'Mommie' issues, and how to stop engaging in all the destructive behavior and abuse i heap upon myself for having these feelings in the first place. Thanks for listening. i never meant for this to be so long! - Sharon
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2009, at 14:19:44
In reply to Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 13:12:52
I have never stopped needing one.
But I have enormously reduced the number of times that this causes a problem, or that I have emotional meltdowns.
I learned to try to be aware of the emotional cues in the moment. A lot of times I wouldn't even realize that I was upset until an hour after therapy when something registered as being different or scary. My therapist was absolutely delighted with him when I started to get angry or upset in session instead of calling him later when he really wasn't quite sure what was going on.
And I learned to be totally honest with him. That's not easy, and it requires a lot of trust. But if I felt that he was different on a given day, and tried to figure out what was going on myself, I'd come up with all sorts of scenarios that may have had a hint of truth, but had tons and tons of stuff built on top of the truth. So instead I'll tell him he seems distant today. He's really good about being honest (usually with one glaring exception in the near distant past), and telling me briefly if he is feeling distracted or tired. Or he'll tell me that he's feeling a bit angry with me and we'll discuss why. Or sometimes he tells me he really doesn't think it's on his side. Is something going on with me today?
It's scary, but in my case the reality was way less scary than the foundation of fears I had built on top of it.
I like to think that what I learned with him I carry over to my relationships with others.
It still happens from time to time, but it's much better. And I still need my therapist/mommy. I can't imagine not needing him.
Whatever path brings you peace in this, it isn't easy and it takes time. So try to be patient and understanding with yourself?
Welcome to Babble Sharon. I'm glad you decided to post.
Posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 14:59:45
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2009, at 14:19:44
Thanks Dinah. Im very happy for your progress and appreciate your kind words of support. i had sure hoped, though, that longing for the nurturing mother i didn't have would one day disappear. i think thats one reason im in such bad shape right now because i can't comfort myself anymore with words like "you won't always feel this way. the older you get, you'll want/need mothering less." but now i am older (44) and faced with the reality that the want/need has not gone away. Perhaps its lessened to a degree with age, and it's tons harder to find (or be found by) a surrogate mother in your 40's than say, in your teens or early 20's! but I am encouraged to hear you say (in my words) that even though you still feel the need for Mommie, the amount of distress and anguish it causes in your life is greatly reduced and 'episodes,' or meltdowns as we call them occur far less frequently. Hey, that sounds good to me. i guess it truly is a journey, huh?
You're not going to believe this, but that great post i made reference to reading today that was all the way back from 2002? You did not start the thread, but you shared much and posted several responses and i was so glad to learn i was not the only person to have this 'problem.' you might find it interesting to go back and look at some of the things you have written so many years back so you can appreciate how far you're come. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
- Sharon
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2009, at 15:07:21
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 14:59:45
Well, it hasn't for me. But others have surely had different experiences. I've heard tell that people can incorporate their therapist's maternal presence to the point that they can find what they need within themselves.
From time to time I try to go back in the archives and save those posts that chronicle my journey. I'm often too embarrassed to actually read them though. If you would like to post a link, I could try to be brave. :)
Posted by antigua3 on January 24, 2009, at 15:18:15
In reply to Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 13:12:52
Welcome to Babble. You'll find a lot of soulmates here.
It wasn't clear to me if you've discussed this w/your T. If you haven't, please try to. It will help tremendously. Maybe not right away, but in the long run dealing with the transference directly, instead of in your mind all the time (like I tend to do BTW, so that's not a criticism) can help reduce the shame. Your T can help you through this, although it truly isn't easy, but try to do it so you can resolve this unresolved pain.
antigua
Posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 15:46:22
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2009, at 15:07:21
> From time to time I try to go back in the archives and save those posts that chronicle my journey. I'm often too embarrassed to actually read them though. If you would like to post a link, I could try to be brave. :)Dinah. you are very brave! I realize the thought of sort of reliving some of what you've been through by re-reading things you've written over the years is kinda scary. it would be for me. And if you hadn't said I 'could' (send you a link,) i wouldn't have, but i am going to because i want you to know the things you had to say and were willing to share (7 years ago!) helped me a lot and what a relief knowing there are other people who know EXACTLY what im going through. isn't it weird how you can read certain posts and for a second, you could actually believe that was you writing it? its weird but its also very comforting.
i know what you mean about finding it hard to read stuff you wrote during an especially difficult time. i have since stopped doing it, but i used to write my t these long letters, which i suppose were really more like my journal, but it was easier for me (although still extremely difficult!) to get the information i want her to have via a piece of paper rather than out of my mouth, because it's quite possible i could never get it out of my mouth, but im afraid (and grateful at the same time because i know she knows what is best cuz she's the pro) that my t wants me to be able to speak it with my mouth outloud (for some reason, maybe im wrong,) and not just on paper. in fact, i don't even write to her anymore, which of course means i'm not doing any type journaling, because i don't think she likes it. or, because she's so busy and sees so many people she doesn't have the time (or even the desire) to read what I have to say. Since I know im not the center of her universe (or even anywhere near the outer reaches of it, i have to realize that what is important for me to convey to her is not necessarily important to her to receive. that's what i tell myself anyway. Im still pretty insecure in the relationship (as probably comes across loud and clear.) Its better, but i can still lose it if i sense her pulling away or being annoyed or tired of me, but like you, it seems anyway like these episodes (meltdowns) are fewer and further between, but i guess i should ask her about that! (o:
Anyway, here's the start of the link i was referring to. Oh! I know what i was gonna say. every once in a while ill come across a Word doc from a 'letter' i had written to my t during a difficult time, and i can't read it either! i delete it so fast when i see it. like i can't make it disappear fast enough!
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020320/msgs/20772.html
Posted by antigua3 on January 24, 2009, at 16:00:28
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 15:46:22
My T encourages me to write to her if I need to, and I still do on occasion, although that means I have to take valuable talking time for her to read it.
My pdoc is different, however, and I offer this as an alternative way for you to view how you feel about overburdening your T with your writings.
I used to write to my pdoc, but then we had a huge falling out over his response to something I had written, which made me cease writing altogether for a very long period of time.
I got over it (can you tell by my rampant posting in the last 24 hours????), but what really came out of it is that he wants me to talk and not write, that he needs the context of me sitting in front of him in order for him to truly help me. And he was right. It's different when I have to speak about unspeakable things out loud; it's much easier for me to write because I can make it organized and logical. But I lose a lot if I hide behind organized and logical. I needed, he needed, the spontaneity of the spoken word and the unexpected places it often leads us.
But writing is important, in whatever way, shape or form it is helpful to you, so even if she doesn't read anymore, write for yourself. It helps a lot.
Just something to think about,
antigua
Posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 16:04:27
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by antigua3 on January 24, 2009, at 15:18:15
> Welcome to Babble. You'll find a lot of soulmates here.
Very cool. thanks, antigua!
>
> It wasn't clear to me if you've discussed this w/your T.I'd have to say "no," i have not discussed this with my t, at least not directly. she knows i did not have a nurturing mother and she knows how much it still affects me, but whether she knows that ive come to look at her in this role, i have not said to her, but that certainly does not mean she is not fully aware! im probably much more transparent than i know! (o:
Thanks for your response. Take care!
Sharon
Posted by antigua3 on January 24, 2009, at 16:11:55
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 16:04:27
Even though you may feel you're transparent, it's the talking about it part that can be very therapeutic. My opinion of course.
antigua
Posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 16:16:59
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by antigua3 on January 24, 2009, at 16:11:55
Thanks a lot, antigua. (You're funny.. "can't you TELL how over it I am?!?!?") that was cute. i will really try to do a better job of discussing this with my t, because unfortunately, i feel the distress it's causing me (because of the shame and embarrassment factor in having the feelings in the first place and at my age!) is contributing greatly to an escalation in my 'compensatory behaviors' as i call them. my addictions plural are raging because that's how ive always dealth with unpleasant or uncomfortable feelings. Hopefully it's just the storm before the calm. Thanks again. (o:
Posted by LibraryGirl on January 24, 2009, at 16:44:56
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by antigua3 on January 24, 2009, at 15:18:15
I know, I have this issue as well. I've had it all my life, wishing other older females in my life (whether teachers, friends, and in some cases people on television) were my "mommies." Usually I focus on one person at a time, sometimes for years, before another replaces her. My last was my former T. Sometimes I'll have visions of my current T letting her put my head on her lap while I talk to her, but I know it's just my issues surfacing themselves b/c I don't specifically have those feelings toward her (yet....I'm hoping they stay away this one time), or anyone else right now, but yes in general it's still an issue for me. I honestly don't know if it ever goes away. I hope so.
Posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 17:18:17
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by LibraryGirl on January 24, 2009, at 16:44:56
Thanks LG.. what a releif it is to me to know there are other people that do exactly the same things and think the way i do about this. i have always had the needing a mother problem for as far back as i can remember, too. i would never know when a woman would become like a mother figure to me. sometimes it ended up being someone who i never would have thought would have affected me that way. it just kinda of happened. for me, like you it was teachers, my friends parents maybe, the doctor, and yes, celebrities. i dont know about you but i think one way i used to cope with how neglected i was as a child was to engage (in my mind) in these well thought out fantasy scenarios with my 'mother at the moment' person. it'd probably be kind of funny to share who they were, i mean like if it was a celebrity. For example, for a while mine was Jane Fonda. ha, ha. and to you, you're probably like "Eww! She wouldn't be mine!" and i couldn't even tell you why! lol. i am not kidding when i say i could 'escape' for a couple hours doing that. pretty scary, huh? and my parents neither knew this was going on, nor did they care. Thanks for your support. - Sharon
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2009, at 17:47:04
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 15:46:22
Whew! Certainly not the *most* embarrassing thing I've ever posted. :)
I am so glad I made the decision to trust him enough to talk to him about it. I'm not sure I quite managed to talk my feelings to death, but I definitely am in a more comfortable place with him now.
It never would have happened if I hadn't kept talking. And talking. And talking.
BTW, my therapist made me read everything I brought him when I had trouble talking to him and mostly wrote. It was amazing what a different experience it was to read it aloud. I'm glad he did make me do that.
Posted by movingforward on January 24, 2009, at 18:59:14
In reply to Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 13:12:52
wow your thread really hit home! My mother has narcissistic personality disorder, and I talked with a t that saw us when i was in my teens agreed.
Mothers, we grown in their womb, the give us live, and are sUPPOSED to give us unconditional love. It now blows my mind the lack of training t's receive on childabuse and neglect. There also needs to be more information on the effect of passive abuse and neglect.
My current t has made me realize my mother is toxic and brought on so many of my issues and that is why i have extreme attachment issues.
You are not alone and i hope more is researched on how abandonment issues can cause issues to last for a life time. i am thankful that I found someone who was compassionate and understood my pain. Sometimes our family is not blood.
I wish you peace and healing.~MF
Posted by rskontos on January 25, 2009, at 13:44:44
In reply to Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 13:12:52
Sharon,
my t, whom is also my p-doc, has told me that when I can think of him as a surrogate parent either father/mother then we are doing great things. Neither of my parents were great. My mother was undx'd BPD or bipolar. They were both abusive and neglectful. I have ranted at my t that I am tired of parenting myself. He says I need to let him but then that would involve trusting him. A real problem for me.
In any case, you are definitely not alone. But I agree with all. Talking about it is very beneficial. And not at all shameful.
It was not your fault that your parents abdicated their job and left you with the pieces to now try and pick up.
Transference is a good thing especially when dealt with correctly in the therapy room.
Good luck.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on January 25, 2009, at 13:45:44
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by rskontos on January 25, 2009, at 13:44:44
Posted by sharon7 on January 25, 2009, at 14:37:50
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by rskontos on January 25, 2009, at 13:44:44
wow. thank you so much, rsk. that was very thoughtful and encouraging. it really does help knowing im not crazy (just broken, wanting/trying to get put back together,) and that many others are in the same boat. next time i see my t, i will try and broach this subject. after having my meltdown in her office last Thurs, i impulsively called and canx'd my next 2 appts with her, so its going to be like 3 more wks till i see her again. i think i do that after one of those episodes because i think if i stay away a couple weeks she'll have forgotten the way i acted. thanks again and best of success on your journey as well. (o:
Posted by rskontos on January 25, 2009, at 17:46:20
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 25, 2009, at 14:37:50
> wow. thank you so much, rsk. that was very thoughtful and encouraging. it really does help knowing im not crazy (just broken, wanting/trying to get put back together,) and that many others are in the same boat. next time i see my t, i will try and broach this subject. after having my meltdown in her office last Thurs, i impulsively called and canx'd my next 2 appts with her, so its going to be like 3 more wks till i see her again. i think i do that after one of those episodes because i think if i stay away a couple weeks she'll have forgotten the way i acted. thanks again and best of success on your journey as well. (o:
Well, again, don't feel like the lone ranger, I have done the same thing. Behave in a way that I feel ashamed. But in all honesty I believe that our t's have seen all this before and will see it all again. They know that our behavior has been shaped by the sad way we were treated as children and until we can learn new patterns of behavior it will just take time and patience not only on their parts but ours as well. We have to be patient with ourselves. The parts of ourselves that have remained children and need to grow up to match our outside exteriors. We have parts of us, that inside is still stuck in the era of our childhood that was lost to us because our parents abandoned us to a defunct childhood where we needed to parent ourselves and we did not have the tools to do so. And parts of ourselves are on the inside grown up but the two don't always play nice together and there lies the conflict within. So don't be ashamed that sometimes this conflict manifests itself to the outside world because your t knows this and accepts it and wants to help.
Just the acceptance of it yourself will allow you to be able to share how you feel to your t. Then this will go long way to help you begin to deal with it.
It will get better, then get hard, then get better, and so on. We are all here to help you best that we can.
take care,
((((((((sharon)))))))))
rsk
Posted by LibraryGirl on January 26, 2009, at 7:36:11
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?', posted by sharon7 on January 24, 2009, at 17:18:17
lol No Jane Fonda wouldn't be mine. A long time ago, when I was younger, I remember one celebrity was Dierdre (sp?) Hall (Marlena, on Days of Our Lives). It's rare I focus on celebrities, but sometimes if I have no one IRL who I feel that way towards, I'll focus on a celebrity to fill the void I guess. And yes I have fantasies about my various "mothers." In case of a celebrity, she would show up at my door one day telling me I was adopted and she was my real mom and wanted me back and we'd have a tearful reunion with lots of hugs. Sheesh. My former T was one who I never thought would affect me that way; she didn't fall into the "mold." She was older than the usual mother-figures I focus on, she was in a wheelchair (not that in itself meant anything was "wrong" with her, but it was different), she was attractive but not overly so, and I even remember thinking when I met her, "good, this won't happen with her." but it did, b/c she ended up mothering me and forcing her caring on me, and so it just grew into those feelings for her. Anyway, maybe it's good we can laugh about it a bit. :/
> Thanks LG.. what a releif it is to me to know there are other people that do exactly the same things and think the way i do about this. i have always had the needing a mother problem for as far back as i can remember, too. i would never know when a woman would become like a mother figure to me. sometimes it ended up being someone who i never would have thought would have affected me that way. it just kinda of happened. for me, like you it was teachers, my friends parents maybe, the doctor, and yes, celebrities. i dont know about you but i think one way i used to cope with how neglected i was as a child was to engage (in my mind) in these well thought out fantasy scenarios with my 'mother at the moment' person. it'd probably be kind of funny to share who they were, i mean like if it was a celebrity. For example, for a while mine was Jane Fonda. ha, ha. and to you, you're probably like "Eww! She wouldn't be mine!" and i couldn't even tell you why! lol. i am not kidding when i say i could 'escape' for a couple hours doing that. pretty scary, huh? and my parents neither knew this was going on, nor did they care. Thanks for your support. - Sharon
Posted by sharon7 on January 26, 2009, at 10:01:02
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by LibraryGirl on January 26, 2009, at 7:36:11
That's great, LG. Thanks for putting such a big smile on my face this am and making me laugh. Deidre Hall is a great one! Very beautiful, motherly. Yeah, as for the older, wheel chair bound t that you never imagined you would feel the 'mother-child' thing going on, one of mine (i think i was around 15 or 16) was an older woman (not a t) and she had polio so walked with crutches cuz she had no use of her legs. i would not have imagined she would be my fantasy mom but she was. she paid so much attn to me, made me feel i was important and special, not only to her but to the world, she taught me things, listened to me.. so maybe that means it's more about the way these 'mothers' treat us than anything to do with physical attributes? women i found myself drawn to, and i don't know about you, but i never planned to feel drawn to anyone in that way. In fact, ive often prayed "please, Lord, not this time" because as much pleasure as the experience brings, it also tends to bring nearly as much if not more heartache. im not saying i haven't had wonderful surrogate mommies in my lifetime and none really ended bad, but they always 'ended' as of course they would because people who aren't family do come in and out of our lives. and because abandonment is such a huge problem for us, these intense relationships do bring with them potential for a great deal of pain as well. this is so cool to be able to talk about this with someone who really gets it. i have never discussed this with anyone! But it's not like we ever 'plan' for this to happen. i think we did it/do it as like a survival kind of thing. i guess i can accept that it is natural and instinctive to want/need to be mothered when you are a baby/child but what is so troubling for me now is that i am not 14 anymore. im 44 and realize i still have the capacity/desire/need/longing within me to be mothered. at this age, thank God it happens a lot less! and i don't know about you, seems like of like one of those "Murphy's Law" things that when i feel i am at a place in my life (finally) where I feel i don't have to worry anymore about having those feelings for someone, think maybe ive grown out of it finally or something... boom.... Julie Andrews shows up, we're feeding deer from our hands and singing "the Sound of Music!" LOL!! Anyway, i could (and have) gone on and on about this, and i appreciate you listening. it's just so cool to actually be able to talk about this openly with someone i know completely understands. Thanks, LG!! - Sharon
Posted by LibraryGirl on January 26, 2009, at 11:23:29
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » LibraryGirl, posted by sharon7 on January 26, 2009, at 10:01:02
Posted by LibraryGirl on January 26, 2009, at 11:24:40
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » LibraryGirl, posted by sharon7 on January 26, 2009, at 10:01:02
(sorry, last reply didn't show up, trying again):
I so know what you mean. The ending part is hard. Usually these sorts of relationships are in my head; I may be friends or know the person, but usually they have no idea that I want them for a mother. In the case of my former T, it did end very badly, and three years later it still hurts. I'm hoping she was the last and it doesn't happen again, but as you said BOOM when we least expect it. Anyway, yeah, I could probably go on and on about this too. lol. Babblemail me anytime if you'd like. I'm glad I made you smile :)
Posted by sharon7 on January 28, 2009, at 16:35:14
In reply to Re: Will I ever stop wanting/needing a 'Mommie?' » sharon7, posted by LibraryGirl on January 26, 2009, at 11:24:40
Thanks, LG. What's 'babble mail?' (I hope you had/are having a good day today, by the way!)
This is the end of the thread.
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