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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 13, 2009, at 6:28:43
In reply to Is this the end of therapy? Long, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:36:42
I don't have any answers for you, Daisy, but I'm as sorry as I can be that you're in this painful place.
((((((((Daisy)))))))))))
Posted by twilight on May 13, 2009, at 7:59:19
In reply to Is this the end of therapy? Long, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:36:42
Hello Daisy; well it's interesting, what you say about your T's friend dying a few months ago. Sometimes death offers people a chance to revaluate their own lives and relationships, including work and how they do things, and so on. Maybe he is still dealing with his own *stuff*.
Sounds like he changed the structure of your therapy these past couple of days and the balance between structure and compassion is always a delicate one. When we are pushed too hard, we resist. When the structure is too loose (like in your session where he didn't ask you anything)then we avoid.
Your T sounds like he has to find the balance again of being structured enough to let you explore and compassionate enough to let you reveal. I wouldn't quit if I were you, abuse take a long time to heal and don't know how long you've been seeing him but it does take some time. He might be going through a rough patch himself and although that is not your problem, it could be influencing the way he does therapy.
I hope you can talk to him about this.He might be trying some different approach to you in your therapy that isn't working for you (obviously) but doesn't mean that the relationship is a write off. Take care of yourself Daisy.
Posted by sunnydays on May 13, 2009, at 10:13:22
In reply to Is this the end of therapy? Long, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:36:42
Oh, Daisy. I wish I could give you a hug. ((((Daisy)))). I think this is not the end of therapy, but I liked your analogy about a tsunami of negative transference. Only, I don't think it's all transference. I have had similar ruptures with my T, where I have felt certain that he had said that he was frustrated with me (I never wrote about them here, I don't think). It felt like the world was ending and therapy would never be the same and I would most certainly just implode from the pain. And for the most part I tried to talk about them with T, but never felt like he got it. We moved on from it and I just saw, through his continued words and actions, that he was trustworthy and clearly still wanted to work with me. I am also very concerned with being perfect in therapy - I understand that need. I need to be the MOST special, the BEST. My T still doesn't quite get that need to not just be 'one of the best', but the BEST.
I think that this is extremely painful for you but that you need to keep working on it with T. He very well might not be at his best due to problems in his personal life, to an extent that he is not aware of because it would be too painful for him to be aware of it (they are people too, however much we want them to be perfect). My T came back to work during a time of grief for him and it was clear to me that it was too soon - he said some things that really hurt me. However, I didn't discuss them out of courtesy for his feelings, only to find out years later that my memory of that time and his memory are completely different - I misread him.
I think you need to keep working with T. Talk to him, call him, talk about how you are feeling about therapy. Don't try to go 'deep' right now. Focus on the relationship and healing that. Talk to him about what his statements seem to mean to you.
I really think it could just be a case where he is not at his best and is making mistakes. Unfortunately they are some of the most painful mistakes there are. We are so sensitive and vigilant, as people with trauma early in our lives, to anything that hints that we are going to get hurt again or rejected. I know this is painful, but your T is not rejecting you. He should be being much more careful with your feelings right now. But please continue to work on it with him. I truly don't believe this is the end for you two.
sunnydays
Posted by antigua3 on May 13, 2009, at 11:57:14
In reply to Is this the end of therapy? Long, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:36:42
No, it isn't the end of therapy, Daisy. In some ways it's the beginning of another phase. Hate to say that it's another painful one, but I think you already know this.
Your T appears to be a little off in the usual way he deals with you. Losing a good friend takes time to recover from and he may be bringing that into the room, an insistence that you need to get better because he may be worried about his own mortality.
Secondly, I don't think you ever manipulate him and I'd check back with him to see if that is what he meant. I've asked my pdoc that same question before and it led to an interesting discussion about expectations--of what I could expect from him and what I couldn't, and an affirmation that I wasn't manipulating him, and if he thought I was, that was his issue to deal with.
The push and pull of trusting and blaming ourselves comes up at every new stage of therapy. I think you know this. But it hurts so much to have trusted so much, and to think that this issue is over with, only for it to rear when we need to go deeper.
It sounds like he is pushing you now to lead the way. You've told him as much as you can about what happened and now it's time to move to finding ways to deal with it that work for you. It's painful. I hate it. It hurts all over again, and the pain is just as intense, if not more, as the first time we opened up.
He's asking you to take those little girl feelings and start to grow up. You may not be ready for that yet, and if you're not, tell him so.
It really sounds like he's bringing his pain into the room and hearing your pain may be hard for him to deal with at the moment, so he's pushing you.
Just my thoughts. He has been too good of a T to you for you to leave. But he's human and some of the idealization may be losing some of its luster for you. You don't want that, but it's part of the process.
I recently came to truly accepting that my T and pdoc are just people. Sounds simple, but it is a huge revelation for me. My pattern has always been to take the negative things I hear from my pdoc and put them on myself, to take responsibility for things he has actually done, and not me. Separating these out has been huge for me. He's not a God. He's a person. And he makes plenty of mistakes, and it's my job now to recognize when these errors are his or mine, and to not accept the shame that I've always carried when I carried the blame for others, my father mostly.
Lastly, I don't think this is negative transference at all. And you know I'm the Queen of Negative Transference. It sounds more like a disruption in your relationship that you need to take charge of and talk to him about.
Hang in there. You've worked way too hard to stop now.
antigua
Posted by Tabitha on May 13, 2009, at 12:43:38
In reply to Is this the end of therapy? Long, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:36:42
You got such thoughtful & articulate response here I'm afraid mine will sound trite, but my first thought was that this will blow over. It seems like a huge disruption/crisis in the relationship now, but I wonder if it would help you soothe yourself to just assume you'll get through this with him. Somehow, some way, things will change in you and/or in him, you'll talk about it, and it will pass.
Posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 13:48:35
In reply to Is this the end of therapy? Long, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:36:42
Daisy,
The feelings you describe are so painful. Clearly this has been a very difficult period for you and your T. But one thing I am absolutely certain of is that your therapy is not over. You may even be poised to enter a new phase in your therapy accompanied by a new sort of trust with your T.
You have had a lot of thoughtful responses from people here. Apart from the things others have raised, it seems to me that you are wrestling with what I think is the hardest and most complicated issue in any attachment-based therapy. The dilemma is, how can the connection youve worked so hard to establish make space for your healing? Can we stay connected from the healthy parts of us instead of only the damaged parts? And maybe the biggest of all - does getting better mean getting abandoned? This is not your paranoia, it's a real and meaningful question. Of course its going to rear its head, and this has probably not been the first time nor will it be the last. It is something that will need revisiting, over and over and over. And it will probably look a little different each time.Dont look back on all youve accomplished with skepticism. You know that he has believed you all along and that he has held you, tenderly and faithfully, throughout the years. You know you mean a lot to him. Dont question that now, dont devalue the connection you have fought so hard for. You have a very caring and empathic T, Daisy. He understands your ambivalence and most likely feels some himself. He knows the score. If you are sensing some frustration on his part, it is only because hes human. His is a tough job, to hold you without holding you back. And I think he is mostly aware of the level of attachment and trust you have for him. But while trust is earned, it also has to be given. Maybe he is a little hurt, maybe that is part of what is going on between you. It is a difficult business.
I hope you can hang in there and continue to talk with him and remain engaged. Try to recognize when the old voices get inside your head and in your way. Your T is on your side and just wants whats best for you - your healing. You are both on the same side.
I wrestle with this too.
Mollie
Posted by Daisym on May 13, 2009, at 20:29:00
In reply to Re: Is this the end of therapy? Long » Daisym, posted by twilight on May 13, 2009, at 7:59:19
Thank you for all your replies. I read them all several times and heard the message about not quitting loud and clear. And I really tried to ask myself if I was resisting moving into a new phase. It also helped to think about his part in this and not make it all my fault. Wise words from all of you.I did go today and told him where I was with all of this. I told him I felt really stuck - knowing he wanted me to talk yet not wanting to appear stuck on the abuse stories or using them to elicit sympathy. He said he hadn't realized that I was hanging on to that - that he thought he'd made himself clear that he did not secretly think I was manipulative in anyway. But he also wanted to know that if this was now a question in my mind (was I really doing that unconsciously?) why wouldn't I talk about it with him? I said I couldn't - it was too scary and too painful - and about the present and not the past. So something in my control, something I was responsible for...and how disappointed would he be in me if it were true?
He was clear that he didn't want me to quit therapy. He mentioned working through some hard stuff and hurt feelings before and he kept saying that he had faith we could work through this. Near the end of the session he said, "I was hoping that by talking more about it today that we could end in a better place. I feel like we are in a worse place and I'm sorry for that. But I'm not giving up - we must struggle through this. After all we've been through - this happens in close relationships." We spent the last 10 minutes on something else - I think we were both exhausted and aware that we weren't getting anywhere, that enough had been said and now I needed some time to let the hurt ease off. I think he was a bit shocked that I was having such a strong reaction.
Thank you all for being there for me. Therapy is too hard to do alone, don't you think?
Posted by raisinb on May 13, 2009, at 21:09:54
In reply to How It Went, posted by Daisym on May 13, 2009, at 20:29:00
Therapy is too hard to do alone, don't you think?
No kidding. Daisy, I wish you well with this hard place, and I admire you so much for all you've done in your therapy.
Posted by Dinah on May 14, 2009, at 9:26:27
In reply to How It Went, posted by Daisym on May 13, 2009, at 20:29:00
It is too hard to do alone. I'm glad you have us.
And your therapist, as odd as it sounds. What movie is that line from? Something about being upset and wanting to tell my best friend about it, but my best friend is you?
I really liked what Antigua said. It was what I was thinking. That to some extent he may not be at his best. But that there are stages in therapy, and it's not necessary to end therapy at the end of a stage, and it's not even necessary to agree to the therapist's pacing of the end of a stage. But life does change, d*mnit. I hate that.
Maybe, since it turns out that he didn't intend to say what you heard, you might be the one who is ready for a transition to a new phase of your relationship, however much you dread it. I always thought that one of my therapist's moments of genius was to stress from the beginning that I didn't have to be in distress to see him. It wouldn't encourage me to feel better if I knew feeling better meant losing my therapist. Maybe young Daisy is looking for reassurance that she will be loved and welcomed when she has happier news to relate, or even when she has nothing of particular interest to say? Is she? Are you willing to listen to her, and make her part of your life, when she isn't in pain? Is your therapist?
It's not manipulation to be afraid of losing something vital to you.
Posted by antigua3 on May 14, 2009, at 19:51:03
In reply to How It Went, posted by Daisym on May 13, 2009, at 20:29:00
It sounds like your session went pretty well, but it was still terribly painful.
I'm glad you spoke up and he acknowledged how you are feeling and that he understands and wants to continue working and helping you in any way you need him.
I get the manipulation part. For me, I am still getting over that the abuse was all my fault--that I caused it, and manipulation on my part was an important factor, or so I thought. So it's easy for me to see why manipulation would be a really important issue. Explore it some more because it's triggering you.
It's easy to say we know it wasn't our fault; it's another to feel it. But we can do it. I'm doing it now in my own therapy. It's more than accepting. It's feeling it and integrating it into who we are. It's not happening the way I thought, as in "I'll get over it and move on," but it's really integrating the feelings, thoughts and beliefs about myself into becoming a new person. Being reborn is how my pdoc puts it, and I like that metaphor. Becoming a new person in a way, while still holding onto the core of my being, and soul, that I believe is good and strong.
Give yourself a break tonight and focus on comfort until you gather some strength. We always struggle so hard, and it's such an effort, but sometimes we just need to recharge.
antigua
Posted by sunnydays on May 14, 2009, at 20:14:12
In reply to Re: How It Went » Daisym, posted by antigua3 on May 14, 2009, at 19:51:03
It's interesting for me to find out that other people have had the same fear I have - that I am using these experiences to manipulate people into feeling sorry for me. I have been terrified about that for a while and haven't mentioned it to T yet. We have talked about how sometimes I get scared to get better, but this fear of being manipulative is different. Every once in a while I get a glimpse, though, that I'm really not being manipulative at all.
I don't know. This is all so difficult.
sunnydays
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 14, 2009, at 20:58:39
In reply to Re: How It Went, posted by sunnydays on May 14, 2009, at 20:14:12
I think it's interesting how MANY of us have this fear. And I suspect for those of us with abusive childhoocs, that our abusers conditioned us to think this -- it's one of the ways they protect themselves. If a child tries to tell someone, they say things like, "She's so melodramatic; always looking for attention." Right? That's what they did to me.
Posted by Daisym on May 14, 2009, at 22:32:10
In reply to Re: Is this the end of therapy? Long » Daisym, posted by twilight on May 13, 2009, at 7:59:19
I've been seeing him for 6 years. Alot of what you said makes sense and he keeps pointing out that I've made this all about me and dropped his contribution to this rupture. We tried to figure out today why this turned into such a HUGE deal for me. It goes back to how important the relationship is. That said, is he truly not allowed to challenge or push me in anyway? I think I'm tougher than that...but maybe not?
Thanks for the support.
Posted by Daisym on May 14, 2009, at 23:08:50
In reply to Re: How It Went, posted by sunnydays on May 14, 2009, at 20:14:12
I was really struck by what you wrote above - that my therapist should be really careful with my feelings right now. I keep wondering if he should be - isn't it his job to challenge me and help me see the things that need to change? Sometimes he can do this and it doesn't feel like the end of the world - but this time it did. So what was different? I'm trying to really figure that out.
I worry all the time about appearing manipulative. I think TG is right - we worry about appearing dramatic and have been told our whole lives that we are something we aren't or weren't. So how do we know what we are? Or where those boundaries really are? My therapist did some reality testing around this today. And then asked, "do you really think you are manipulative? I said no. But "I think you think I am." They should wear a ticker-tape on their fore-head so we can see their thoughts. It would be so much easier!
Posted by Daisym on May 14, 2009, at 23:21:55
In reply to Re: How It Went » Daisym, posted by antigua3 on May 14, 2009, at 19:51:03
OMG - I can't believe I didn't put this together. I've always felt responsible for the abuse especially since I wanted and needed the closeness with my dad. But I think, in-my-heart-of-hearts, that part of the fear of being found-out was this idea that I manipulated my dad into doing these things due to my need to hold him close. I was/am terrified someone (my mother) would say, "well, you were always a needy child and smart enough to get what you wanted." Ouch. And it it feels good to have my therapist's caring, doesn't that mean I shouldn't have it, because then I'm using something terrible to feel something good. My head hurts.
We talked today about being perfect again. All of this is hard to stay with. I want to shut it down and stop talking about it.
Posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 0:55:20
In reply to Re: Is this the end of therapy? Long, posted by Tabitha on May 13, 2009, at 12:43:38
You sound a lot like my therapist - while trying hard not to make me feel worse, he sort of says, "we've been through hard stuff before and we made it through." I guess I don't have that confidence in any relationship. I suspect this is from my own parents, who were very withholding (or worse) when I failed to meet their expectations - as well as my divorce. In the later years of my marriage, fights would occur, a period of silence and hurt would ensue, and then we would just move on. Things never got resolved.
But still - the more we talk about it the more confusing it gets. It was my proposal that we just leave it alone for now and see what happens. Perhaps changed forever is the truth of it - but not lost, if that makes sense.
Posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 1:14:24
In reply to Re: Is this the end of therapy? Long » Daisym, posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 13:48:35
Is there a way to wrestle with this that doesn't create those feelings of fragmenting? We tried to talk about this a little today - and we have touched on it before. He tells me that lots of people come to therapy for ongoing support and to work on all kinds of aspects of themselves. I tried to tell him that I realize that he will be open to continuing therapy as long as I want to, but I can't see allowing myself this. If I feel better and am doing well, how can I justify taking up a spot that someone else needs? I barely feel "entitled" to all this angst now -- to which my therapist responds, "wow, I hear your mother loud and clear here."
The truth is - if I raise this - about the connection and the wounded parts -- won't he then begin to watch for this as well? And will he pull back from the wounded parts? And as I type this, I realize that those wounded parts are terrified of being shunted aside again, of having to give room to the super-executive and mom who presents a stellar outer image to the world. Because it isn't only a hard-fought war for the connection, it has been a bloody battle to even allow those parts any room to feel, remember and tell. Especially to tell. These parts still need and want this deep connection and those needs feel giant and shameful. So the healthy parts wants to smother them, to let pride and appearance win out and be funny, and easy and "fine."
*sigh* I thought I was done with this struggle and here we are again. No wonder he is sick of it.
And I'll think about what you said about his hurt feelings. I have felt a powerful urge to fight with him on and off the past few months. I tell him about this urge because he never gives me anything to push against. I end up fighting against myself and that isn't satisfying at all. Which is the point, I suppose.
Thanks for the support. I'm sorry that you struggle with this too. I'm telling ya, it was easier to be unconscious and less self-aware!
Posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 1:17:48
In reply to Re: How It Went » Daisym, posted by raisinb on May 13, 2009, at 21:09:54
Thanks for the support and for being here. Maybe we should print up cards that say, "for support: www.dr-bob.org" :)
Posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 1:57:01
In reply to Re: How It Went » Daisym, posted by Dinah on May 14, 2009, at 9:26:27
Ok, I'm only agreeing to a next stage if someone can tell me what it is and how it works and what I will feel - what are the $%#! rules for this stage?! (rant over)
You mentioning young Daisy wanting reassurance niggled a memory for me. Tonight I found this - I'd written about this session three weeks ago:
{Today I had one of those amazing connection sessions. We were talking about a time when I was really hurt when I was 9/almost 10. It was just before Christmas and I was so traumatized that I essentially crawled in my bed and refused to come out for like a month. I described what it felt like - hiding in all the whiteness (the sheets) from the world. (My therapist) said, "where was your mom?" I tried to explain that she was working and probably frustrated with me because I couldn't talk to her and I wouldn't let her touch me. He said she should have tried harder. She left me alone - alone in all the white space and he said he wouldn't have done that. He would have tried to find out what was wrong. But even if he couldn't, he wouldn't have left me alone. I started to cry and time was up. He said, "I wish you didn't have to go right now, there is so much here. Would you like to stay a few more minutes?" I said, "why? what will you do?" He said, "I'll just be with you. We'll just sit together so you don't have to be alone." So I stayed a few minutes - I felt special. And I felt calmer. He was so gentle and so *there* - you know?}
I'm a little shocked at the similarities that I played out with him this week - how is it that we can set up these unconscious reenactments and then snare our therapists into them? As someone said, he has been distracted a bit with his own stuff. If I'm brave enough, I should take this in. But instead of being with me in the "white space" this week, he got frustrated. So what is the message here?
Is it that I let him too close? Or is it working hard to undo that which can not be undone?
Thanks for making me think Dinah.
Posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 2:01:17
In reply to Re: How It Went » sunnydays, posted by TherapyGirl on May 14, 2009, at 20:58:39
My mother used to call me "Sarah Burnheart" - the implications of a dramatic actress were clear. And if you ever met me, I'm about the most undramatic person you'll ever meet. I think we all work hard to NOT be noticed.
But I watch for it all the time. I think I never learned what an acceptable level of complaining is - none isn't right but some feels like a ton too much.
Posted by antigua3 on May 15, 2009, at 7:15:17
In reply to Re: How It Went » antigua3, posted by Daisym on May 14, 2009, at 23:21:55
Sometimes we do need to shut it down for a bit, to give it a rest so we can protect ourselves, even if you're like me, pushing that therapy as hard as you can because you (we) are desperate to get better. Sometimes we're moving too fast and are flooded with emotions that we can't sort out yet, so yes, maybe you should give it a break. As my pdoc says, it will come back around and you will be stronger to deal with it.
I'm going to lecture you here. You are not a drain on your T. He's not impatiently waiting for you to finish so that he can fill your seat. Your job isn't done yet. My pdoc recently told me emphatically that he didn't think I was done yet when I tried to quit, and just knowing he wasn't trying to fill my slot was huge, given as I've mentioned, that he doesn't believe in long-term therapy. I think I've changed his mind. :)
I think what's different is that you feel he's pushing and challenging you a bit more than in the past and you're finding this hurtful. But for whatever reasons you're feeling this way, this doesn't change the relationship between the two of you that you've worked so hard to built. It may be shifting, and you're moving into a new area, but I don't think he's asking you to be the perfect Daisy you think. You're taking it that way because it's hurting little Daisy, but try to speak up, or let her tell him why this is so hurtful.
please take care,
antigua
Posted by sunnydays on May 15, 2009, at 9:06:05
In reply to Re: How It Went » sunnydays, posted by Daisym on May 14, 2009, at 23:08:50
I think I meant that, even if he is going to challenge you, he should still be careful of your feelings. My T will push me sometimes but also include lots of statements that clarify *why* he is saying what he is saying, makes absolutely sure I know what he means, and will stop if I can't handle it. (that's when he's at his best - there are plenty of times he forgets or chooses not to do that... I don't like that as much). I think being pushed and challenged is definitely part of successful therapy, but it shouldn't be done in a way that feels unsafe or threatening. There's been enough of that already. We need to feel held at the same time we are being challenged.
sunnydays
Posted by rskontos on May 15, 2009, at 17:40:28
In reply to Re: How It Went » Daisym, posted by sunnydays on May 15, 2009, at 9:06:05
Daisym,
When I read your first post in this thread, my initial thought was no, she isn't done. It just is hard and hurts like hell sometimes to be going through all that therapy brings up and out. I believe your therapist is probably one of the best ones around, so I know that no matter how hard it is, your interests would be served best by staying.
As I have read all the excellent supportive posts, I am thinking that I until we, ourselves, accept the past that made us who we are, we will continue to need our t's. We have so much that shaped us into who we are now, and that is often the default mode we can't but help to default to when things get tough. Like for instance, the whole ying and yang of therapy. The growth phases, the regroup phases, the feeling stuff phases, the really nice connected phases. For each different phase, hard or easy nice or difficult is one step toward new growth. Growth that is hard come by but deserves a celebration for having done it.
You have made a lot of strides in your growth with your t, and it is not always easy to see how far or how well. I too know that feeling like invisibility is the best option. and how too easy it is to sometimes long for the ability to hide and stay hidden.
I often long for the days before therapy when I was ignorant of who and what I am. When I was in a dissociative haze and all was so familiar.
I think your t relationship is reaching a new level and you are trying to define it with old language from the past. Until you get past this step it will be uncomfortable but one day, not too far from now, it will begin to feel like it fits again.
I admire your progress, grace under fire, and your commitment to yourself.
Hang in there,
rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 19:26:20
In reply to Re: Is this the end of therapy? Long » mollieQ, posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 1:14:24
> I tried to tell him that I realize that he will be open to continuing therapy as long as I want to, but I can't see allowing myself this. If I feel better and am doing well, how can I justify taking up a spot that someone else needs? I barely feel "entitled" to all this angst now -- to which my therapist responds, "wow, I hear your mother loud and clear here."
I know I'm somewhat biased, but I think that your spot is your spot. If someone needs your therapist, they can get their own spot. You don't use all of him up. Although admittedly we probably don't like to dwell overmuch on that.
I really really really believe that those kind of thoughts could scare your younger self silly. To feel deep down that you are entitled to see your therapist not only when you're a wreck, but when you're doing better as well, sends a much more positive message to the primitive parts of ourselves.
I find that if I tell my emotional self, overtly or covertly, that I will only "listen" to her when she is screaming then she will definitely scream. I try to send the message that those needs are always important. And they are. Kids need to be able to show the picture they drew to "mom" as well as go to mom when they have a cut on their knee.
You deserve your spot, you deserve your therapist, as long as you need him and as long as he helps with your overall functioning. You don't have to assess yourself to see if you qualify for his services.
It's ok to ask your therapist to listen to whatever you need to tell him. But I think it's also ok to tell yourself that it's ok to need him even when you're feeling ok.
And admittedly this does show my bias. But it also shows my hard won experience.
Posted by mollieQ on May 15, 2009, at 22:27:16
In reply to Re: How It Went, posted by rskontos on May 15, 2009, at 17:40:28
This is the end of the thread.
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