![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 47. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by silmarilone on September 4, 2003, at 20:10:45
I have some questions about the effects of injecting meth (ice)
Anyone have extensive knowledge here?
Posted by Sebastian on September 4, 2003, at 21:53:17
In reply to ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by silmarilone on September 4, 2003, at 20:10:45
Sounds like fun, never injected it. Smoked some weed once that was called crystal weed, didn't understand what the crystal ment at the time. Smoked it and droped to the floor. Don't know how long I was out. Every one wanted me to get up but I couldn't. Just dead, basicly. This was back in 93(about). At the time I could barely handle pot. I allways wondered what was in it. It was very addictive. Smoked for years day and night. Hash too (all the time), don't know what was in that eather; black stuff like playdough; very addictive too.
Anouther time I had EX that I was later told was not X but realy meth. I was was poping them like candy. Blown out of my mind, being warned not to take all at once, save some for later? Think that was the last time I took X.
Sebastian
Posted by jesus on September 5, 2003, at 0:03:13
In reply to ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by silmarilone on September 4, 2003, at 20:10:45
nearly all my friends have ruined their lives b/c of it, mainly because of the brain damage long term use caused...injecting it is prolly the worst way to take it b/c of the harsh comedown, imo (not to mention needle sterility and whatnot)
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 12:37:08
In reply to ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by silmarilone on September 4, 2003, at 20:10:45
Oh Yes, pretty darn extensive as I snorted it for 3 years back in the late 60s. I liked the feeling very much, too much. I believe it was my drug of choice because I was very depressed due to my home life and because it actually calmed me down in smaller doses. I don't believe I have classic ADD but do have BP but who knows how the two are linked. But I know I was depressed and it definitely lifted my spirits, mostly at first until it got out of control.
Its primary action is to release the stores of dopamine into the synaptic cleft. There is no reuptake mechanism as with SSRI's, so when the dopamine is used up, the natural stores are depleted and each successive dose is like beating a dying horse.
It nearly killed me, I became emaciated and delusional from lack of sleep and brain toxicity. It has a nasty, dark energy to it, you could feel the dense heavy blackness that eventually snuffs out all lightness of spirit. I was in my late teens and became very strung out, unhealthy and it's amazing I recovered. You end up hanging around with unsavory characters who have only one agenda - to get the buzz. They generally have few teeth left, are gaunt and twitchy and would kill you without much thought for the money to procure more. You end up hanging out with folks like this because it becomes your main focus in life, a kind of communal bonding based on incessant conversing about things that no one else could possibly follow or have any interest in. You lose all your other friends to this Fellowship of Jitterbugs.
Luckily I stopped before I lost teeth or committed crimes, but to illustrate, I was horribly sick with mono and STILL was snorting because I couldnt' stop.
It's an amazingly addictive drug, mostly because of the horrible, awful coming down that impels you to take more just to keep the black depressions at bay. I'm relating a pretty serious Jones, and due to the era, I was also doing more than a healthy amount of hallucinogens. But believe me, there is no 'just doing a little' because using it becomes necessary to just function after only a very short time, especially if you have easy access to it. The need for more to get that buzz escalates quite rapidly. Once you begin snorting it or God forbid, shooting it, you are on a long dark road and you will crave it unceasingly. The only way I stopped was to get away from the town I lived where it was too easy to procure it from said unsavory characters. I craved it for a few years but got majorly into eating and living well and began meditating which doesn't cotton to using drugs. Otherwise, I would be DEAD, no doubt about it.
I had definite biological propensities toward depression anyway, but I believe my neurons have come to recognize and associate it with the bleak black evil qualities learned from my meth withdrawals. - BarbaraCat
> I have some questions about the effects of injecting meth (ice)
>
> Anyone have extensive knowledge here?
>
Posted by EscherDementian on September 8, 2003, at 14:05:44
In reply to ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by silmarilone on September 4, 2003, at 20:10:45
i am curious to know your questions - candidly?
Posted by stjames on September 8, 2003, at 14:26:33
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » silmarilone, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 12:37:08
It nearly killed me, I became emaciated and delusional from lack of sleep and brain toxicity. It has a nasty, dark energy to it, you could feel the dense heavy blackness that eventually snuffs out all lightness of spirit.
I was a speed freak for 3 years, decades ago. I totally agree with what BarbaraCat said here.
Posted by Festus on September 10, 2003, at 21:57:21
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by stjames on September 8, 2003, at 14:26:33
Your very realistic post painted a near-perfect picture,Barbra Cat,of the past when I lived in a neighborhood propelled by "Meth"or that,s what they called this particular mixture.One guy,s bro was a chemist ,had it analyzed,stuff had a little baby powder,a touch of strychnine(yea,the poison they use to kill rats,but a little of it helps the overall effects )and some other trash.Oh,yea,just the kind of crap you,d want to inject right into your purty little vein!I saw some of em,dark,hollow eye sockets,sunk-in cheek bones,all layin around in the room,shades pulled tight to keep out that nasty ol,sunlight so the room would take on more of a tomb-like aura.Oh,yea,I forgot:this was suppose to be a party.Nobody was laughin,though,they all just chain-smoked and hacked up brown crud from their lungs,"enjoyin"themselves,waitin till their pulses slowed juuuust enough to shoot another hit,so they would,nt have cardiac arrest or any of them Party-Poopin type spoilers,you know,where someone goes into Amphetamine Pshychosis and starts foamin at the mouth or somebody else"crashes" after only bein up for 4 days.Whimps!But,hey,this is a party afterall,so lets all have some"fun",to heck with those party wreckers!We can go to the ER later,but for now.......
Posted by starlight on September 11, 2003, at 17:47:35
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » silmarilone, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 12:37:08
BarbaraCat,
I had no idea, and am so glad that you were able to be released or to release yourself from Meth.What was the impact on your mental health once you got back on your feet?
I saw my Pdoc today and have been feeling sooo awesome lately so - guess what? Of course he wants to up my dose of lamictal, which (of course again) I'm opposed to. Why would I want to change when I'm feeling good? But I do finally acknowledge that I can fully see the mood swings in action, so no more denial....
starlight!
Posted by Sebastian on September 11, 2003, at 19:42:49
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by Festus on September 10, 2003, at 21:57:21
I liked your version, very graphic words. Write more!
Seb
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 20:11:16
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by starlight on September 11, 2003, at 17:47:35
Hi Starlight! So good to hear from you again! I'll tell you this long and roundabout story in answer to your question because I think you'll understand the nature of the underlying forces involved. I've often wondered about how the meth tinkered with my wiring, cause I know it had to, but how is subject to so many variables. The playing field is very murky. My father was clearly and severely mentally ill with what I think was BP mixed states. Half of his large family had the same symptoms. His family life was violent and he continued the legacy. So I had a double whammy with both a genetic predisposition and an abusive home situation. I learned pretty early on about evil because my father would get absolutely possesed with a very dark energy that was not him. Sometimes he was great, but there was no way to know from day to day when we'd be in the Hell Worlds.
There's no way I could've escaped the mental and spiritual disorders I've experienced throughout my 52 years. It was destiny. I was drawn to meth because it made me feel so much better right away, a great antidepressant for an unhappy 18 year old that helped to get me reacquainted with feeling pretty good. I think it would have been enough after a short stint dallying with it, except for the people I eventually got involved with. I was drawn to it and to these people because who knows about other lifetimes and what went on and who we knew and what we did in them, but meth was the perfect drug to get to know this strange dark energy better, the one that's probably been following me around for a long, long time.
Some of the folks I got involved with were into some very strange things, I found out about only afterwards. Even though I was a very rebellious recovering Catholic, I couldn't let myself follow the weird pseudo-Satanism these folks were into. There is a seductiveness in that path and meth is the perfect drug to attract people who like that sort of thing. They had no idea what they were messing with. It rips holes in the aura and lets dark energies in that no can can convince me are pure delusion. It seeps in and once those little psychic clingons take notice, it's hard to shake them off. Perhaps this fantastical take on it has much to do with my Catholic influence of demons and such, but it doesn't matter what you believe - malevolent energy is a fact, and it shaped the quality of my mental disorders.
Some of my psychoses during the worst of my depressions/mixed states were so infused with horror and terror and the presence of pure evil that I know there is much in my life/spirit/soul that has chosen this path in order to bust through it for good. Mainly, I've learned though long and dedicated work in following the Light that I am quite strong and that there are blessed forces guiding us. I guess I had to go through the dark to get to the Light (and I'm still slowly crawling towards it). The meth use was part and parcel of the energy I was dealing with on many levels. It's said that we choose our lives. Well, I chose a lu-lu. I still deal with it, but I'm no longer running from it and don't need to know what or who it is. I have then and since looked it in the face in it's many guises and can stand my ground. That's a pretty powerful thing to know about oneself.
On a neural level, I don't know. I prefer to think that our receptors heal, our neurons do regenerate themselves, and so I don't think that I permanently damaged anything. It's more like wearing grooves in neural pathways that KNOW how to recognize terror and darkness, know very well about the qualities of fear. My dx is BP-1 but a few of my therpists have narrowed it down to PTSD. Chicken or the egg, nature or nuture. I'm just glad that I've learned my lesson and don't need anymore of that weird dark shit in my life, uh-uh.
I really can't say one way or the other if meth helped or hurt. It was a crash course in something I think I was destined to play out sooner or later and I'm glad it was sooner. Now I'm trying to get those neural pathways to learn about the nice fuzzy warm and safe stuff (hard in the current world situation, but hey, that's life). Our 9 furry felines are contributing wonderfully in this therapy. BCat
> I had no idea, and am so glad that you were able to be released or to release yourself from Meth.
>
> What was the impact on your mental health once you got back on your feet?
>
> I saw my Pdoc today and have been feeling sooo awesome lately so - guess what? Of course he wants to up my dose of lamictal, which (of course again) I'm opposed to. Why would I want to change when I'm feeling good? But I do finally acknowledge that I can fully see the mood swings in action, so no more denial....
> starlight!
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 22:07:47
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by Festus on September 10, 2003, at 21:57:21
Can you talk more about your neighborhood, Festus? Not to give anything away about the who and where of you, but you know of this dark, creepy yet seductive world and we want to know of it too - at least how you interpret it. So much of our entertainment and advertisement world gets created from this dark, dank and glamourous tomb. It's seductive. It's the lure of the vampire thing, the grunge, the dabbling in the dark. I've never done crack, it was after the jones of my addiction, but I can only imagine!!? It's the hollow craving but more so. One begins to crave the dark excitement without ever realizing it's enthralled you. The stories of mothers leaving their babies to die while they toot says it all. What can do this to a human being?
Please write more. Your words will be appreciated and honored here where they will be understood. - BarbaraCat
> Your very realistic post painted a near-perfect picture,Barbra Cat,of the past when I lived in a neighborhood propelled by "Meth"or that,s what they called this particular mixture.One guy,s bro was a chemist ,had it analyzed,stuff had a little baby powder,a touch of strychnine(yea,the poison they use to kill rats,but a little of it helps the overall effects )and some other trash.Oh,yea,just the kind of crap you,d want to inject right into your purty little vein!I saw some of em,dark,hollow eye sockets,sunk-in cheek bones,all layin around in the room,shades pulled tight to keep out that nasty ol,sunlight so the room would take on more of a tomb-like aura.Oh,yea,I forgot:this was suppose to be a party.Nobody was laughin,though,they all just chain-smoked and hacked up brown crud from their lungs,"enjoyin"themselves,waitin till their pulses slowed juuuust enough to shoot another hit,so they would,nt have cardiac arrest or any of them Party-Poopin type spoilers,you know,where someone goes into Amphetamine Pshychosis and starts foamin at the mouth or somebody else"crashes" after only bein up for 4 days.Whimps!But,hey,this is a party afterall,so lets all have some"fun",to heck with those party wreckers!We can go to the ER later,but for now.......
Posted by judy1 on September 13, 2003, at 11:00:51
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » starlight, posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 20:11:16
I'm very curious about what your pdoc has to say about your past drug use and your bipolar diagnosis. I also have a bp1 dx, and used cocaine extensively in my 20's- a decade ago- but really had bp symptoms since my teens (my father was also dxed with manic depression and was an alcoholic). I guess I always looked at it as a way to self-medicate, are those your feelings too? Have you had any brain studies done- PET scan, etc.? I did and have a small hippocampus which my pdoc claims is a result of childhood abuse or PTSD, he never mentioned any changes in brain structure as a result of drug abuse. Although if you think about it, the same pathways are affected so I would think it has to contribute. How are your symptoms now? Are you on meds currently? Thanks and sorry to get away from the meth subject- the people I knew on meth were a whole lot scarier then the people I knew on coke.
take care, judy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 15:41:14
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » BarbaraCat, posted by judy1 on September 13, 2003, at 11:00:51
A very good question and one that I've wondered many times. I don't know about long term use of meth/coke and doubt if anyone knows for sure. None of my pdocs have been particularly knowledgeable about this subject which I think is more in the realm of neuropsychiatry and neurophysiology. Yes, I definitely used it to self medicate. A friend in high school ripped off some black beauties from her pharmacy sales clerk job and I thought 'Oh my God, this is what normal feels like!' But I had had a very abusive situation because of my father's BP and I was already very depressed, and understandably so. If I had been able to use it therapeutically and not need more more more, who knows where I'd be? It could have been enough to offset the severe depression that was just getting a foothold, and happily retrained my neural circuitry because it did make me feel so very very much better, at first. Perhaps I was really ADD which is why I felt so focussed, calm and normal on an amphetamine, but perhaps I developed a much more severe BP-1 condition because of neuro-damage from meth? Would I be less prone to a neurochemical imbalance if I hadn't fried my brain 30 years ago? I think that's probably a given, but to what extent?
My genes and abusive childhood make my illness highly probable, but how would I be had I not indulged to the point of neuro-toxicity? My brain is not going to be pink, grey and healthy no matter what because of the childhood abuse. Do others who had a wonderful childhood with no hint of genetic taint go on to develop a mood disorder by abusing stimulants?
The lines get so blurred because we both, and probably 90% of other abusers, have had childhood trauma which appears to definitely affect the brain structure. The hippocampal structure contains the amygdala, which is the 'fear' center of the brain, so any change to that structure is going to do something as regards to fear, anxiety, stress, etc. PTSD is going to do harm to that structure, but how much harm was postponed or reinterpreted due to the effects of 'self-medicating' due to an intolerable childhood?
There was a poll a while back on this board asking who had good childhoods and were still depressed/bipolar. It was very surprising how many had great childhoods, in fact, most did. But the question about drugs' contribution did not come up. Maybe it's time to do another poll.
Alot of publicity has been paid to celebrities' abuse of coke and their subsequent Parkinson's Disease. We personally know a few people like that. But even with something which seems a no-brainer in it's obvious connection, neurologists can't say for sure if there is a correlation. Some even say that the coke delayed the inevitable, that the coke was self-medicating a condition that was already in progress and actually acted as a protective agent. Hmmm, maybe in therapeutic quantities, but it seems very likely that persistent overuse is going to do SOMETHING unhealthy. I guess the question comes down to, is is permanent? This would be a very good subject for someone's dissertation.
Here's a question for you. What is it about meth vs. coke users that were different/darker? In what way and why do you think that's so? - Barbara
> I'm very curious about what your pdoc has to say about your past drug use and your bipolar diagnosis. I also have a bp1 dx, and used cocaine extensively in my 20's- a decade ago- but really had bp symptoms since my teens (my father was also dxed with manic depression and was an alcoholic). I guess I always looked at it as a way to self-medicate, are those your feelings too? Have you had any brain studies done- PET scan, etc.? I did and have a small hippocampus which my pdoc claims is a result of childhood abuse or PTSD, he never mentioned any changes in brain structure as a result of drug abuse. Although if you think about it, the same pathways are affected so I would think it has to contribute. How are your symptoms now? Are you on meds currently? Thanks and sorry to get away from the meth subject- the people I knew on meth were a whole lot scarier then the people I knew on coke.
> take care, judy
Posted by Festus on September 13, 2003, at 20:21:11
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » judy1, posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 15:41:14
Good Evening Seb,B-Cat,All other bro/sis folk who would have to be to frequent this place,
To use a small analogy to perhaps,put the Dark and the Light of the areas to which we are transversing(hence the"meth"as the dark,the"Coke"as the light)into perspective,lets use 3 characters.The 3 that would best fit this analogy that come to my"grey,some pink,some chartruese"brain,are the jock,the Momma,s Boy,and the "hippie-freak"(AKA E.Estevez,A.M.Hall,Judd Nelson)in 1985,s"The Breakfast Club".The first 2 guys would probly be the "Coke sniffers",they fit the mold of the Class and the Bucks that go with those particular types.The third guy is gonna be the classic Meth type,the mold is there,middle or lower-middle class,with not a lot of bucks,Methis much cheaper than Coke and can be made by most anyone that can get the ingredients.You always see Meth labs in the Dark side of town.The jock and the Brain are from normal families that try to raise their kids to be the "ideal"students so they will grow to be part of the Beautiful People(the wealthy).The "punk,freak,thief,hippie"kid is sub-raised by older punk,freak,hippie types who have abused themselves ,grew up to become nothing and take their misery out on their children,as in the case of the kid Judd Nelson played(superbly,I thought.Remember the cigar burn on his arm?)If you think about the differences in the totally 2 different worlds these 3 kids grew up in,you see that something is wrong in all of them.Yet ,thwe one who is probably most sure of himself is Judd Nelson,s character,cause he know,s the"Dark Side"and shows it to the others who can only guess what it must be like,having been sheltered all their lives.They will be the ones to grow into drug users,only they will be the legal kind.I,m sure genetics play a huge part in how we turn out,but we can go for decades un-diagnosed with some of the things that we discover about ourselves later on.Were they there all along?Did they come about as a result of a bad childhood?Or could they even evolve later in life because we had too good of a childhood,created scene-by-scene by our protective,insecure parents?Festus
Posted by judy1 on September 14, 2003, at 12:30:39
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » judy1, posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 15:41:14
Well I just typed a long answer and lost it, so this will be significantly shorter.
I, too, would like to see a poll reflecting substance abuse and bipolar/depresion disorders. Would I do this on yahoo?
I've tried both meth and coke- even though they are structurally very similar, the meth made me a lot more edgy. The meth users I knew as a group seemed quite paranoid and angry, I didn't see that in coke users. This could be a reflection of price- coke was very expensive in the late 80's early 90's and meth was not- so you had a culture of party coke users who usually held fairly good jobs to pay for their product. It also could be a result of how it was taken, those who free-based coke tended to isolate themselves more than those who snorted, just like the people who injected meth were much more hard-core. The heavy meth users I knew did have delusions I didn't see in coke users (but this is just personal experience).
hope this answered your question.
take care, judy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 14, 2003, at 19:20:40
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » BarbaraCat, posted by judy1 on September 14, 2003, at 12:30:39
Do you think that your use affected your mood disorder? Let's start the poll with you.
1. Did you feel supported/loved as a child from your parents/caretakers?
2. Is there a history of mental illness in your family?
3. Were you moody as a child?
4. When and why did you start using street drugs?
5. Do you feel that these substances affected your neuro chemistry either positively or negatively?
6. If you hadn't used these substances do you think your mood disorder would be the same or different now?
7. Do you still use or get the urge to use these substances?Or something like that. I don't know about Yahoo, unless you want to go outside the Board. Perhaps just putting out on a new thread on the Psycho-Babble board would get takers. Sometimes it takes a few go arounds to get the ball rolling.
> I've tried both meth and coke- even though they are structurally very similar, the meth made me a lot more edgy. The meth users I knew as a group seemed quite paranoid and angry, I didn't see that in coke users. This could be a reflection of price- coke was very expensive in the late 80's early 90's and meth was not- so you had a culture of party coke users who usually held fairly good jobs to pay for their product. It also could be a result of how it was taken, those who free-based coke tended to isolate themselves more than those who snorted, just like the people who injected meth were much more hard-core. The heavy meth users I knew did have delusions I didn't see in coke users (but this is just personal experience).
> hope this answered your question.
> take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on September 18, 2003, at 12:03:43
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » judy1, posted by BarbaraCat on September 14, 2003, at 19:20:40
Okay, I'll start and see if anyone continues before trying to set up something more formal.
> 1. Did you feel supported/loved as a child from your parents/caretakers?
No, there was abuse in my home.
> 2. Is there a history of mental illness in your family?
Yes, father dxed with manic depression and almost certainly an anxiety disorder. There were probably other mental illnesses on my paternal side of the family.
> 3. Were you moody as a child?
Yes, probably starting in the pre-teen years.
> 4. When and why did you start using street drugs?
Pre-teen years, really coinciding with the onset of mental illness symptoms and I think as a relief for those symptoms.
> 5. Do you feel that these substances affected your neuro chemistry either positively or negatively?
Thatis so difficult to say. I was told it was the illness itself (PTSD) that affected my neurochemistry.
> 6. If you hadn't used these substances do you think your mood disorder would be the same or different now?
I think it would be the same.
> 7. Do you still use or get the urge to use these substances?
Yes, I use opiates. I no longer use alcoholthanks for putting the questions together.
take care, judy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 19, 2003, at 21:34:19
In reply to Poll » BarbaraCat, posted by judy1 on September 18, 2003, at 12:03:43
Wow, Judy,
I think we might be twin sisters! The only thing I can see that's different is I still use alcohol, but no longer abuse it. Opiates continue to be the most successful alleviator for my bleak moods. Thanks for sharing. This should be an interesting poll.
Posted by starlight on October 2, 2003, at 14:57:44
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » starlight, posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 20:11:16
Barbara Cat,
It's so interesting, the way you describe your father is exactly the way mine was. He could be perfectly normal for stretches of time and then turn psychotic for the dumbest things, like two open milk containers....In other news, I upped the dose of Lamictal to 300 mgs a day and like it thus far, am even taking off some weight quite easily, which is a nice lil side effect. Still smoking the herbage though........
Cheers,
Starlight
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 2, 2003, at 15:44:40
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by starlight on October 2, 2003, at 14:57:44
Hi Starlite,
Nice to hear from you! Now that I know more about this bipolar thing, I feel a great deal of compassion for my dad. To have to go through that and feel like there's no hope, plus having a wild daughter. But a person has to do whatever it takes so that they don't harm a little kid. That's just plain cowardly.I can't puff the herbage any more. I just had some about 1 week ago after not having any for quite a while. I felt shaky and tight all over. Thought, hmmmm, this feels alot like a hypoglycemic spell. Did a search on it and sure enough, pot can exacerbate existing hypoglycemia (that's me) and can eventually cause it if done on a daily basis. This explains the munchies.
It's probably my tweaky chemistry. I get frustrated when I'm trying to chill and nothing helps, pot, benzos, pstims, nothin'. I end up wired and tired but can't sleep. Thankfully, this is not always, but too often. Oh well, at least I don't live in Kabul. - Barbara
Posted by starlight on October 3, 2003, at 12:20:46
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » starlight, posted by BarbaraCat on October 2, 2003, at 15:44:40
I have compassion for my dad as well, though find his lack of control inexcusable since the abuse started when I was about 3 years old. I think I've said this before, but I think there's a likely correlation between Bipolar disorder and abusive childhoods. It seems to me that being in a constant state of fear would be enough to really throw off the chemistry of the brain. So if the genetic tendency exists, that's probably enough to throw the switch.
I have an Aunt who has severe bipolar disorder and a serious substance abuse problem as well, which I find extremely disturbing since I enjoy experimenting some - I'd never do anything like meth, coke or heroin, but I've been known to mix a little muscle relaxant, pot and a glass of wine. I'm pretty good at moderating, but sometimes fear that as I age it could get worse, of course it could get better as well and is only to a small degree. I think that's a result though of still dealing with the residual effects of having been in a state of fear for so many years (until I was 17 and joined the Air Force).
Starlight
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 3, 2003, at 17:46:27
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth?, posted by starlight on October 3, 2003, at 12:20:46
I agree about the Bipolar and abuse link. Was your father bipolar? My father was never formally diagnosed by he was close enough for jazz as far as I'm concerned. Out of 8 kids, at least 4 were very disturbed. But it's so difficult to say if it was because of their lousy childhoods or genetics. Nature or nurture, the age-old question. I think about our cats whom I love so much. The idea of hurting them in any way is horrible, totally repugnant to me. I would lay down my life than willingly hurt them. I just don't understand the kind of psychological torment that could allow that kind of perversion.
Yeah, our brains aren't meant to take that kind of ongoing stress. It clobbers the hippocampus and amygdala which keeps the fear response wired in. My naturopath sees alot of fibromyagia patients like myself and in her estimatation, over 90% have all had childhood abuse and suffer from ongoing PTSD. Our bodies don't like it either and something's gonna give sooner or later.
As far as your aunt's abuse problems, she probably didn't have access to the help we have today for our disorders. They had, what, valium, ECT, Elavil - whoopie. No one went to a 'shrink' for fear of the stigma, and if they did what good would it do. So self medication was about it for relieving stress. I don't subscribe to the 'alcoholism and drug addiction is a disease' concept. One can form a physiological dependence on it and at that point it gets harder and harder. But helpless? Nah, there was always a point to turn back before it got too far out of control. Blaming it on genetics allows a person to roll over too easily. Maybe not a popular sentiment, but it's mine.
The fact is that substances are fun, feel good, and are the most reliable source of an instant lifting of mood. If only I didn't feel like run over dog turd the next day I'd do it alot more. I've had some incredibly transcendant experiences on ecstacy and acid, absolutely lovely buzzes on Vicodin wine and pot, but ye gods, do I pay for it, and it's getting increasingly not worth the pain and self recrimination. The thing that's helping me clean up my act is reading about the effects of substance abuse on my brain and body. Not pretty. As I get older and deal with fibro and bipolar depression, it becomes clear that I have some choices to make if I want to pursue my goal of health and well-being. - Barbara
Posted by starlight on October 3, 2003, at 19:07:39
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » starlight, posted by BarbaraCat on October 3, 2003, at 17:46:27
My father had psychotic breaks, but he's never been formally diagnosed either. He's also not my real father. My real father is a very low key tolerant type of person, which is so much more like who I am that it's kind of strange. It makes interesting discussion for nature vs. nurture.
starlight
Posted by btnd on October 12, 2003, at 18:38:18
In reply to Re: ok so who is knowledgeable about meth? » silmarilone, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 12:37:08
> Its primary action is to release the stores of dopamine into the synaptic cleft. There is no reuptake mechanism as with SSRI's, so when the dopamine is used up, the natural stores are depleted and each successive dose is like beating a dying horse.
At doses prescribed for ADHD (Adderall 20-30 mg) there is no DRI involved, just the release of newly synthesized norepinephrine and dopamine. But once you go higher on the scale, and start using "recreational" amounts - amphetamines become potent NRIs and DRIs (mainly NRI).
> It's an amazingly addictive drug, mostly because of the horrible, awful coming down that impels you to take more just to keep the black depressions at bay.You can use GHB during the comedown from methamphetamine - it does wonders and is much much healthier on your body that another bump. Actually it is beneficial, because at a dose of 4g GHB you get immediate increase in dopamine production, which was depleted during the meth usage. Not to mention other GHB's positive health effects as a recreational drug and a medicine tool.
And also, I'm kinda stunned - why aren't people mentally addicted to amphetamines (I'm not talking particularly of you, just from what I've noticed on the boards), trying to find the cause or remedy to block increasing tolerance of amphetamines and decrease as much as possible neurotoxicity. Those 2 things which I mentioned are covered by few simple and easily obtainable drugs. I'll post more in few days, or you can use search on "NDMA antagonist" "NDMA DXM" "NDMA L-Theanine", if you're interested.
Take care.M
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 12, 2003, at 21:29:51
In reply to Few words on amphetamines addiction, posted by btnd on October 12, 2003, at 18:38:18
> At doses prescribed for ADHD (Adderall 20-30 mg) there is no DRI involved, just the release of newly synthesized norepinephrine and dopamine.
**Any theories why newly synthesized NE and D aren't released naturally, i.e., why do ADHD folks lack this production?
>
> You can use GHB during the comedown from methamphetamine - it does wonders and is much much healthier on your body that another bump.**Agreed. The FDA has nicely protected us from ourselves and made GHB a class, what 2 drug? So it's not that easy to come across anymore. I used to use it as a sleeping aid and had much deeper more restful sleep than anything prescribed by my docs.
>I'll post more in few days, or you can use search on "NDMA antagonist" "NDMA DXM" "NDMA L-Theanine", if you're interested.
**Very interested. I don't do amphetamines anymore because my brain chemistry has become very sensitized. But I am curious about the chemistry you speak of. And who knows, if there's a healthy touch-down, I might go for it.
- Barbara
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