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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by man_oh_man1977 on April 16, 2005, at 1:12:51
Dr Roth,
Thank you for spending time on this board; I've read the majority of the messages and you seem very insightful and kind. I recently tried GHB for the first time. What is the effect on bipolar patients, if you can perhaps generalize?
Thank you very much,
Man-oh-man
Posted by Susan47 on April 16, 2005, at 11:32:25
In reply to Roth: Simple Question, posted by man_oh_man1977 on April 16, 2005, at 1:12:51
Wow. A degreasing solvent, or floor stripper, mixed with drain cleaner ... oh, my.
Posted by chemist on April 16, 2005, at 12:50:36
In reply to Re: Roth: Simple Question, posted by Susan47 on April 16, 2005, at 11:32:25
> Wow. A degreasing solvent, or floor stripper, mixed with drain cleaner ... oh, my.
hello there, chemist here...the GHB ``problem'' is a parallel to that of ecstacy, which is alleged to be 3,4-MDMA yet is almost always found tainted with at best non-active ingredients and at worst substances more damaging to one's system than the drug sought.
gamma-hydroxybutyric acid is currently available in the u.s. (brand name Xyrem, patent to Orphan Medical in 2002) to a small cohort of patients diagnosed as suffering from narcolepsy and cataplexy. GHB is about a half-century older than 3,4-MDMA (first reported syntheses in 1874 and 1914, respectively) and both substances have shown promise when used as directed in a proper setting.
GHB has been used to treat alcoholism, narcolepsy, and transient insomnia (to my knowledge)...while i am in no position to read the mind of man-oh-man, i do not read a request for an endorsement of the use of illicit GHB in his(?) post, nor is there any appeal for recipes such as the one to which you allude above...
just a clarification about the drug - and i refer to the pharmaceutical-grade variety - and the unfortunate actions of recreational users that limit further prescription and investigation...
finally, should you or any of us seek the ``good stuff,'' go no further than the head on one's shoulders: GHB is an endogenous neurotransmitter found in the brain, a naturally-occurring metabolite of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) that we are all ``using'' to some extent as long as we respire....all the best, chemist
Posted by Paulbwell on April 16, 2005, at 17:40:45
In reply to Re: Roth: Simple Question » Susan47, posted by chemist on April 16, 2005, at 12:50:36
> > Wow. A degreasing solvent, or floor stripper, mixed with drain cleaner ... oh, my.
>
GHB is an endogenous neurotransmitter found in the brain, a naturally-occurring metabolite of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) that we are all ``using'' to some extent as long as we respire....all the best, chemistSo you are saying we that if we 'respire' sufficiently we produce all the GHB we naturally need?
Probably. good rest is such a good mental health maintaince 'treatment'
Posted by mattw84 on April 17, 2005, at 1:00:24
In reply to Re: Roth: Simple Question » chemist, posted by Paulbwell on April 16, 2005, at 17:40:45
When chemist says "as long as we respire" the equivilent is "as long as we are alive..." Respiration has nothing to do with GHB -- it is merely a chemical precurser to what is found truly all "respiring" organisms with a neurosystem of any complexity. (GABA)
So as long as we are alive we are all high on GHB... that's right - no joke! Hope this clears things up.
Regards,
Matt
Posted by jeffrey d roth, md on April 17, 2005, at 9:22:20
In reply to Roth: Simple Question, posted by man_oh_man1977 on April 16, 2005, at 1:12:51
> Dr Roth,
>
> Thank you for spending time on this board; I've read the majority of the messages and you seem very insightful and kind. I recently tried GHB for the first time. What is the effect on bipolar patients, if you can perhaps generalize?
>
> Thank you very much,
> Man-oh-manDear Man-oh-man,
While psychopharmacology is not my area of strength, I will share what I believe about GHB, which I understand to have a very simple molecular structure. GHB is closest to alcohol in its mechanism of action, and therefore it is classified as a sedative/hypnotic. Many people with bipolar disorder use alcohol and other sedative/hypnotics to come down from a high. Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA, was thought to have had bipolar disorder, and we know of his alcohol use and experimentation with other mood-altering drugs to take the edge off of his manic and depressive episodes. I suspect GHB was before his time, but if he were around today, he would also be trying GHB. The major problem with GHB is like the problem with alcohol; they are both relatively non-specific drugs affecting many areas of the body in addition to the central nervous system, and both may cause damage to different organ systems as well as lead to respiratory failure in high doses.
Hope this is useful.
Jeffrey D. Roth, MD
Posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:47:50
In reply to GHB | Respiration | What does it all mean??? » Paulbwell, posted by mattw84 on April 17, 2005, at 1:00:24
Oh man do you men ever crack me up.
Posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:53:17
In reply to Re: Roth: Simple Question, posted by jeffrey d roth, md on April 17, 2005, at 9:22:20
Does marihuana affect many other body systems besides the brain?
Posted by man_oh_man1977 on April 17, 2005, at 23:21:12
In reply to Re: Roth: Simple Question » jeffrey d roth, md, posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:53:17
Dr. Roth,
Thank you for pointing out the correlation between GHB and alcohol. My friends use it to blunt out the crash from cocaine use, and although limited in my usage of both substances, I did find it quite easy to come down from my (cocaine) high. Also, quite recently I have found beer to be quite satisfying, which I am presuming goes along with some "need" I have to come down from a hypomanic/manic episode(s). It's hard to distinguish where one ends and the other begins! Fortunately, I will be seeing my pharmacologist soon, and I believe in full disclosure with my doctors. The reason for my heightened drug use may easily be alleviated by an increase/decrease or addition of some psychiatric drug. Thanks again,
Man-oh-man
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 18, 2005, at 9:53:19
In reply to GHB | Respiration | What does it all mean??? » Paulbwell, posted by mattw84 on April 17, 2005, at 1:00:24
> When chemist says "as long as we respire" the equivilent is "as long as we are alive..." Respiration has nothing to do with GHB -- it is merely a chemical precurser to what is found truly all "respiring" organisms with a neurosystem of any complexity. (GABA)
>
> So as long as we are alive we are all high on GHB... that's right - no joke! Hope this clears things up.
>
> Regards,
>
> MattI would describe the system a little differently, rather than precursor/product,the system is one of complex equilibria. It's not a one-way street. There is two-way traffic.
I picture it as being similar to a mobile. You know, things hanging from various cross-bars (levers), dangling by strings. If you gently disturb the mobile, it oscillates, but returns to a stable state. That's how the GABA network works.
GHB is a member of this system, analogous to an element hanging in the mobile. It's a fairly heavy object (able to transfer a fair bit of momentum to the oscillations). GABA is also a heavy element in the mobile simile.
GHB and GABA have a common metabolic partner, succinic semialdehyde. By feedback regulation, the system is dampened, to retain a fairly stable GHB:GABA concentration ratio.
If you ingest GHB, it is like lifting that member of the mobile....remember, this is a fairly heavy object....and holding it aloft. All the members of the mobile adopt novel, but metastable, positions. Then, when your body metabolizes this bolus of GHB, it's like you let go of that heavy object in the mobile group, and the whole thing goes through periods of large oscillation (a real mobile would dance for a long time, in other words).
The critical factor here is recognizing just how dose sensitive the GHB/GABA network really is. There are doses of GHB which will hardly cause a ruccus in the rest of the system (GHB has its own receptors), whereas doses that substantially increase succininc semialdehyde concentration will inevitably perturb GABA. Also, at high concentrations, GHB agonizes the GABA(A) receptor. Other regulatory feedback elements will cause a rebound suppression in GABAergic activity, if the GHB dose is too large.
The sense of "too large" in this system is individual. The "too large" dose for you is different than mine is. Moreover, repeated dosing of GHB changes each individual's value.....i.e. the toxic intake dose for an individual is not a stable value. You may have handled a particular psychoactive dose in the past, without serious adverse events, but taking it another time might cause potentially fatal reactions (because of up- or down-regulation of feedback systems in the control of the complex equilibria).
There is a strong risk of addiction/tolerance with GHB, and its medical use must be closely monitored, IMHO. Long-term use, at appropriate doses, is quite safe. It's the psychological appeal to jack up the dose that's risky. Playing with GABA is literally quite pleasant. Properly dosing with GHB will only indirectly influence GABA....that's the desired outcome.
Lar
Posted by jeffrey d roth, md on April 18, 2005, at 21:37:19
In reply to Re: Roth: Simple Question » jeffrey d roth, md, posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:53:17
> Does marihuana affect many other body systems besides the brain?
Dear Susan,
Not a simple question. The active ingredient in marijuana, THC, may have some effects outside of the brain, but probably restricted to the peripheral nervous system, particularly the gastrointestinal tract. On the other hand, marijuana, especially when smoked, has considerably more tar than tobacco, and thus may have serious effects on the lining of the lung.
Hope this addresses your question,
Jeffrey D. Roth, MD
Posted by sunny10 on April 19, 2005, at 12:44:45
In reply to Re: Roth: Simple Question, posted by jeffrey d roth, md on April 18, 2005, at 21:37:19
buttinski here.... I have heard that one joint puts as much tar in your lungs as three "full tar-strength" cigarettes...Marlboro Reds, for instance.
I'm no expert, just regurgitating what I have read...
Posted by Susan47 on April 19, 2005, at 15:31:52
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze, posted by sunny10 on April 19, 2005, at 12:44:45
I believe it. Two puffs hurts me, now.
I have had to start eating it, but it's not the same... it's very different.
Posted by sunny10 on April 20, 2005, at 13:51:19
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze, posted by Susan47 on April 19, 2005, at 15:31:52
sorry, have no CLUE about eating it... Have heard of "hash brownies", of course, but am a naive twit...
Posted by medhed on April 24, 2005, at 23:20:08
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze, posted by Susan47 on April 19, 2005, at 15:31:52
> I believe it. Two puffs hurts me, now.
> I have had to start eating it, but it's not the same... it's very different.try a vaporizer... you actually get more bang for the buck. and the by product left over (toasted marijuana) is great as a spice for recipes!
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 0:58:49
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze, posted by Susan47 on April 19, 2005, at 15:31:52
> I believe it. Two puffs hurts me, now.
> I have had to start eating it, but it's not the same... it's very different.Yup. It is a 'body' stone rather than a 'head' stone. It seems to affect your body (feel heavy) rather than your head (thinking funny thoughts). At least, thats what most people say...
Posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 15:33:42
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze » Susan47, posted by medhed on April 24, 2005, at 23:20:08
How do you do that medhead? Explain exactly, okay? I want to know, enquiring minds want to know ....
Posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 15:38:52
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2005, at 0:58:49
People have said that but that's not it so much for me, it all affects my head. Everything affects my head, I'm a head person. Okay 'nuff. But really, it's just milder, it's more elusive, I have to be very aware because it definitely does not have the same impact. Sometimes it can be very very strong and make me afraid, paranoid that I'm going to be seeing things that ain't there, although that's never happened. This last batch I made is like shortbread, and it's extremely mild. So it's almost like no effect, the effect is just a slight feeling of everything's looking a bit brighter. That's okay, but for the last year and a bit, I've been using MJ to heighten emotional feelings. Because I feel half-dead otherwise. I'm just so used to being stressed out, it's like a requirement for my brain, now. It's a lifetime habit of stress, you know? I'm sure that's why I do/did it. I've really really slowed down. But I don't feel really alive, either. And I miss not having a calm male presence in my life. Men inspire a lot of confidence in me, men are solid, they're wonderful. Not all men, but in general I love their aura.
Posted by medhed on April 25, 2005, at 21:02:15
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze » medhed, posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 15:33:42
> How do you do that medhead? Explain exactly, okay? I want to know, enquiring minds want to know ....
hi susan.
please do a search with google, you will find many companies that sell vaporizers from $120-$200USD. once you know the basics you can make your own if you like (some sites like overgrow will tell you how). it's worth the investment to buy a real one though, save your lungs alot of trouble and it tastes like hash.
Posted by medhed on April 25, 2005, at 21:05:34
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze » medhed, posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 15:33:42
vaporStore.com. peace.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 26, 2005, at 0:55:33
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on April 25, 2005, at 15:38:52
Or a bong. Bong's are big in Australia. They mix the stuff with tobacco would you believe and smoke it out of a bong. The water filters the smoke so it is smooth.
I have heard that you need 4X the amount if you eat it rather than smoke it... Maybe that is the problem???
Posted by Susan47 on April 30, 2005, at 21:19:11
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze, posted by medhed on April 25, 2005, at 21:05:34
If you're here my girlfriend has one she doesn't use, she's lending it to me, but she says she doesn't like it as much, even though it saves her lungs, it's not the same? I suppose I'll give it a try though.
Posted by Susan47 on April 30, 2005, at 21:20:06
In reply to Re: Roth: Suze » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on April 26, 2005, at 0:55:33
The best is to do both at the same time. I like that. I have to stop talking about this now, though. This is not good.
This is the end of the thread.
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