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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by clubfitter on August 29, 2011, at 20:18:37
Anything other than this. Something tangible with legitimate and more successful rates of recovery? Could give examples but don't want to offend...or to suggest other illnesses are easier.
I know mental illness is "real"....perhaps I should have said "physically."
Posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 20:30:15
In reply to Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by clubfitter on August 29, 2011, at 20:18:37
Yes.
People send flowers when you're in the hospital with a "real" illness. One person kept in contact with me when I was in the psychiatric hospital.
Then there is the issue of knowing how to treat certain real illnesses. We seem to be guinea pigs. Even my doctor at the hospital said psychiatry is as much art as science. Not very confidence inspiring.
When my appendix was inflamed the doctors knew what to do. When my gallbladder was blocked with stones the doctors knew what to do. With this illness they just make educated guesses and I suffer the consequences.
Ugh. I could list so many reasons why I'd rather have a physical illness. Even the nurses are better when you have a physical illness.
Posted by clubfitter on August 29, 2011, at 20:31:17
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 20:30:15
well said lepus
Posted by Christ_empowered on August 29, 2011, at 20:38:34
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by clubfitter on August 29, 2011, at 20:31:17
There's also a lack of compassion for mental patients from those treating them. I had a therapist who DX'd schizophrenia and proceeded to treat me like crap. It wasn't until the State Medical Board got involved that he even regarded me as a human being.
I read somewhere that one thing doctors noted about Thorazine and the other early antipsychotics was that nurses were nicer to patients because they went from having what I guess was perceived as a purely "mental" problem to a "real" problem (sedation, Parkinson's) once sufficient doses of Thorazine were used. The physical ill effects of the drugs made the patients' illness "real," so they were treated better.
Posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 21:24:07
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Christ_empowered on August 29, 2011, at 20:38:34
I have been yelled at by nurses on psychiatric wards. During my last stay, a nurse tech yelled at me for not coming out to get my dinner. I asked her if she would get away with that tone of voice on any other unit of a hospital. She wouldn't. I understand nurses have to kick some patient's butts to get them up and moving around. I wasn't one of those patients. This nurse tech hadn't read my chart to see that I was supposed to be eating outside my room and that my food tray was to be brought to me. She screwed up and I paid for it.
After that day she treated me with disdain every time she had to deal with me.
On no other floor would she get away with that kind of behavior.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on August 29, 2011, at 21:50:37
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 21:24:07
I wholeheartedly agree with Lepus in his or her description of staff/patient interaction. Absolutely NO doubt about it.
I'd rather have a physical illness, but one with a cure.
There wouldn't be a question about whether it is some defect of character, some sort of "choice" and thus worthy of disdain.Lots of diagnoses, all with their burdens.
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 29, 2011, at 22:10:27
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 21:24:07
I have been hospitalized several times and have found the nurses kind and caring. As a psych patient, I see the doctor every day for half an hour or so. As a non-psych patient (have had double pnuemonia, menigitis and major ankle surgery), I see a doctor for maybe five minutes, and then it's a resident who is barely competent. Nurses on medical wards are completely overworked. When I had pneumonia, I noticed that none of the nurses was over 35 and I asked one of the nurses about this. She said people burn out. On psych wards, the nurses tend to be older and tend to stay on for years.
I would be happier to have a physical illness insofar as my daughter and husband would feel less ambivalence, but in terms of hospitalization, I feel psych wards have been kind and caring in a way that medical wards are not.
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2011, at 22:19:31
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by emmanuel98 on August 29, 2011, at 22:10:27
Worked on all floors of hospitals many hospitals in past and found that a majority of nurses worked on floors that had interests in and unless overworked which is the most common on medical floors the care given could differ from day to day based on the seriousness of the conditions of the patients and the amount of staff to do the work. As for medical vs physical. My Mother died a horrible death at age 48 of Addison's disease and I would never wish this on my worst enemy. Her saying was if you lose your health you have lost everything which she did. Been a patient in psych also but long time ago when you could go in for med changes. I've worked there also and most not all of the staff loved what we did and I feel we did a good job. If a staff member was sent to that floor they had kind of an attitude as they didn't want to be there but then the psych RN's had attitudes if sent to medical floors as didn't have the skills necessary to deliver care required. It's a mess out there now. Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on August 29, 2011, at 22:26:43
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Christ_empowered on August 29, 2011, at 20:38:34
If accurate, that is truly sad....not to mention appalling.
Posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 23:13:34
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by emmanuel98 on August 29, 2011, at 22:10:27
Wow! We have had completely different experiences with our hospital stays. I've had the best nurses consistently concerning my physical medical complaints. I've had a few problems with psych nurses however. Perhaps it is because my illness is not well understood, at least not to the severity I have it. I suppose I could easily look like I'm not trying or being manipulative. During my last stay my therapist actually put on my chart that I was neither of these things, highly motivated and would never lie about his orders. Sad that even had to be charted. More sad that few nurses read it.
I don't want to make it seem like I despise all psych nurses. I don't. During my last stay I encountered a couple of wonderful nurses who were truly where they belonged occupationally. They were just exceptional, even when they were swamped. I wish I could thank them properly. Never even got to say goodbye to the best nurse I had.
Anyway, psych hospitals these days are not what they were, even when you go to a place like McLean.
> I have been hospitalized several times and have found the nurses kind and caring. As a psych patient, I see the doctor every day for half an hour or so. As a non-psych patient (have had double pnuemonia, menigitis and major ankle surgery), I see a doctor for maybe five minutes, and then it's a resident who is barely competent. Nurses on medical wards are completely overworked. When I had pneumonia, I noticed that none of the nurses was over 35 and I asked one of the nurses about this. She said people burn out. On psych wards, the nurses tend to be older and tend to stay on for years.
>
> I would be happier to have a physical illness insofar as my daughter and husband would feel less ambivalence, but in terms of hospitalization, I feel psych wards have been kind and caring in a way that medical wards are not.
Posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 3:58:14
In reply to Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by clubfitter on August 29, 2011, at 20:18:37
No. I am. Plus have depression.
I liked it better with just depression.
I've become very adept at saying I have a mood disorder at the appropriate times. It helps me discern who's who in this life.
Posted by Phil on August 30, 2011, at 4:46:53
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick? » clubfitter, posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 3:58:14
I had 100% better psych nurses in psych ward than in 'regular' hospital. the whole staff was amazing.
when i got nms from zyprexa i was in the hospital for 6 days with spiking fevers. i dealt with at least 4 nurses who should have been taken out and shot. it was unreal.
mental illness is no picnic but i gotta tell you, some of the physical stuff i've had i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
after having mental illness for 30+ years, i'm too old to care what other people think. but yeah, it's still unfair.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on August 30, 2011, at 12:11:20
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 23:13:34
It should be illegal to have a "doctor" speak to you for 5 minutes and then have you involuntarily admitted with another "doctor" who can't remember your name (which is right in front of them).
That "doctor" could at least remember to prescribe effexor since withdrawal on top of everything else could really suck.
It ought to be illegal to have one's insurance company pay out tens of thousands of dollars to have a total of 15 minutes of interaction with their "doctor" during a one week stay in a "psychiatric" unit.
It ought to be illegal to be told "you'll go wherever they'll take you" when a "patient" asks about whether it might be possible to go to to one of a couple of different places suggested by one's therapist.
It ought to be illegal for a "patient" to not be permitted to speak with their "social worker" for 5 minutes during a one week stay in a "psychiatric" unit. Having said social worker roll their eyes when attempts are meant to speak with them about making one phone call that might be about saving the "patient's" job is also something not helpful. It's a little difficult to use the only payphone available in the midst of constant rap music to call one's place of employment.
It ought to be illegal then to have no access to one's phone to attend to responsibilities outside the "hospital"- yes even retarded "psychiatric" patients have jobs they could lose, obligations.
It ought to be illegal to be incarcerated for a week in a "psychiatric" unit without ANY therapy whatsoever.
It ought to be illegal to receive attitude and "ex....cuuuuse ME" from a "psychiatric nurse" when the "patient" lets them know that they are receiving the wrong amount of medication.
It ought to be illegal for some "psychiatrist" to tell a "patient" that their doctor is "very disappointed" in them.
It ought to be illegal to be drug tested when a "patient" tells a "nurse" that they are feeling "hyper". "Well, that medication isn't supposed to do that."
It ought to be illegal to be stuck in a infection control nightmare (community bathroom).
It ought to be illegal to have nothing to do but witness overgrown teenagers break down the unit door.
I have NO doubt that these conditions exist because the concerns of "psychiatric" patients are discounted, in large part because many of them cannot advocate for themselves.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on August 30, 2011, at 12:16:53
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by sleepygirl2 on August 30, 2011, at 12:11:20
Posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 13:10:23
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by sleepygirl2 on August 30, 2011, at 12:11:20
li love it when you write. What a manifesto of frustrated anger. Right on!
> It should be illegal to have a "doctor" speak to you for 5 minutes and then have you involuntarily admitted with another "doctor" who can't remember your name (which is right in front of them).
> That "doctor" could at least remember to prescribe effexor since withdrawal on top of everything else could really suck.
> It ought to be illegal to have one's insurance company pay out tens of thousands of dollars to have a total of 15 minutes of interaction with their "doctor" during a one week stay in a "psychiatric" unit.
> It ought to be illegal to be told "you'll go wherever they'll take you" when a "patient" asks about whether it might be possible to go to to one of a couple of different places suggested by one's therapist.
> It ought to be illegal for a "patient" to not be permitted to speak with their "social worker" for 5 minutes during a one week stay in a "psychiatric" unit. Having said social worker roll their eyes when attempts are meant to speak with them about making one phone call that might be about saving the "patient's" job is also something not helpful. It's a little difficult to use the only payphone available in the midst of constant rap music to call one's place of employment.
> It ought to be illegal then to have no access to one's phone to attend to responsibilities outside the "hospital"- yes even retarded "psychiatric" patients have jobs they could lose, obligations.
> It ought to be illegal to be incarcerated for a week in a "psychiatric" unit without ANY therapy whatsoever.
> It ought to be illegal to receive attitude and "ex....cuuuuse ME" from a "psychiatric nurse" when the "patient" lets them know that they are receiving the wrong amount of medication.
> It ought to be illegal for some "psychiatrist" to tell a "patient" that their doctor is "very disappointed" in them.
> It ought to be illegal to be drug tested when a "patient" tells a "nurse" that they are feeling "hyper". "Well, that medication isn't supposed to do that."
> It ought to be illegal to be stuck in a infection control nightmare (community bathroom).
> It ought to be illegal to have nothing to do but witness overgrown teenagers break down the unit door.
> I have NO doubt that these conditions exist because the concerns of "psychiatric" patients are discounted, in large part because many of them cannot advocate for themselves.
>
Posted by sleepygirl2 on August 30, 2011, at 15:45:17
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick? » sleepygirl2, posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2011, at 13:10:23
Sigh...
Thanks for the validation, it does really help.
I've really got to let it go.
I guess can only be grateful for the amount of mental health I have. I will never allow myself to be in that position ever again.
Posted by Lepus on August 30, 2011, at 16:44:30
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick? » floatingbridge, posted by sleepygirl2 on August 30, 2011, at 15:45:17
Your post really hit home with me, sleepygirl. Luckily I was able to check myself out of a similar hospital. I could tell things were going to be bad on the second day and when they weren't listening to my concerns I asked to be discharged.
Then I called every patient advocacy group in the area and filed several complaints. The hospital did speak to me at length about my experience. They said changes would be made. Probably nothing came of it but at least NAMI and a few other doctors in the area know not to recommend that hospital.
Posted by zonked on August 30, 2011, at 20:40:43
In reply to Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by clubfitter on August 29, 2011, at 20:18:37
> Anything other than this. Something tangible with legitimate and more successful rates of recovery? Could give examples but don't want to offend...or to suggest other illnesses are easier.
>
> I know mental illness is "real"....perhaps I should have said "physically."It's so hard to say. Would I rather have bone cancer? No. At times, would I rather be happy and be in a wheelchair or something? You bet.
At times during severe depression I've said that if someone could remove an arm and cure me of the depression I'd sign up in a hot minute.
-z
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 30, 2011, at 22:28:37
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by sleepygirl2 on August 30, 2011, at 12:11:20
Psychiatric units are money-losers for most hospitals. The insurance companies pay low daily rates and they have no "procedures" that they can charge for. As a result there are not enough psychiatric beds. I have found it almost impossible to go to a hospital I want to go to. When I've been hospitalized, I go to the ER and then wait while they search for a bed, sometimes upstairs, someimes miles away. I once spend nearly 48 hours in the ER waiting for a bed.
Besides that, I have not had your bad experience with psych wards. I have had to be hospitalized a number of times and saw doctors and social workers daily for half an hour or so. All but one hospital took my cell phone, though they let me have it to call work so I didn't have to call and have the hospital come up on caller ID.
Posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2011, at 23:27:53
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by emmanuel98 on August 30, 2011, at 22:28:37
So basically it is a bit like all aspects of life some things are good some things are not good. Same as people, doctors, illnesses, degrees of. Today here at least no hospitalizations unless very psychotic, danger to self or others, or suicide attempt. True about shortage of beds and also pdocs just got home from mine find out she retiring in Dec getting married age 75 to old school chum whos wife died of cancer as her husband also did years ago. And is making no arrangements for any of her patients. But since she will move out of state and retire oh well. Only doc within six hours that uses benzos. Guess will have to sell an old body on street for low doses of benzos. Not funny tomorrow. Trying to make light of it tonight as nothing I can do. The docs here are benzoprobes been through the list or medicaire phobes. love Phillipa
Posted by sleepygirl2 on August 31, 2011, at 7:36:18
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2011, at 23:27:53
I have a huge amount of regret about sharing my suicidal thoughts. Hospitals are not an option for me.
Posted by floatingbridge on August 31, 2011, at 9:09:15
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by sleepygirl2 on August 31, 2011, at 7:36:18
> I have a huge amount of regret about sharing my suicidal thoughts. Hospitals are not an option for me.
That seems like such a shame, too. A real waste of what MH service is supposed to or at least could provide. An opportunity to have a real and deep therapeutic exchange.
I've learned all the code words now, just how to phrase things to convey distress without setting that damn machine in motion and losing my rights.
Then, one of the very best talks I had was with a therapist whom I was able to say, look, I am deeply ambivalent about being alive. It was almost like she rolled up here sleeves; she really perked up, and we had one of the best discussions
ever.This past bezerko summer when I found myself at the ER, my husband tried to drag me out. Don't worry, I said. I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what to say. I am not interested in getting locked up.
It's a mad world, our culture. It turned out that unless I admitted to being suicidal, there was no help for me. Period. Goodbye. Seizures, withdrawals, please do that at home. Unless of course you say those magic words. Then the great locked doors will swing open and swallow you entire. And therapy? We don't have time for that. We're busy keeping nuts like you safe.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on August 31, 2011, at 11:46:20
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick? » sleepygirl2, posted by floatingbridge on August 31, 2011, at 9:09:15
I suppose it is what it is. I knew better.
I know what not to say, but at that point what I said did not matter. I tried to get out of it. Live and learn (the hard way).
Posted by floatingbridge on August 31, 2011, at 13:10:20
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick? » floatingbridge, posted by sleepygirl2 on August 31, 2011, at 11:46:20
> Live and learn (the hard way).
>
>
>Are you suggesting there is another way?
I haven't heard of this.
:-/
Posted by hyperfocus on August 31, 2011, at 20:29:57
In reply to Re: Would you rather be 'real' sick?, posted by Lepus on August 29, 2011, at 21:24:07
I honestly don't know. Grass is always greener...many times during the day I feel like I cannot stand this emotional pain another minute. When it's very bad I'm about 90% disabled. I'm a prisoner in my own mind - I can't even go outside. This feeling of not being whole or fully here or not in control of my thoughts is terribly distressing.
The majority of people I have to tell about my suffering, including employers, colleagues, nurses and medical admin workers, think people like me are frauds, maligners, soft, weak, lazy, etc...More than one doctor has washed their hands of me - silently deciding that I am beyond treatment.
But I never had to deal with any chronic pain or disability. Maybe if I was there I'd wish I was here. I really don't know.
But the little I have I'm very grateful for. Because there are so many people - billions and billions - who have so much less.
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