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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by johnnyj on November 27, 2006, at 13:38:38
I am off meds right now and have had this problem with working out since I had pneumonia 5 years ago. It seems to worsen my sleep. My mood rarely drops when I work out it just affects my sleep. It is quite profound too. I can have a good day and do a nice little workout (not too killer) and the next day I will feel terrible. I am still waking up early 4 or so and kind of sweating too.
I wonder if seeing an endorcrinologist is a good idea? We all know the docs see our history or anixety and/or depression and say that is what is going on. But I thought working out is supposed to help this? It doesn't seem to matter when I work out either. I used to feel great working out and now it seems to worsen things. I do get really really tired after a short workout too. Since I have been off meds for a short time (last med about 3 weeks) maybe my body needs time to heal up first? It is so confusing and frustrating.
Any ideas out there? Thanks
johnnyj
Posted by JLx on November 27, 2006, at 19:04:14
In reply to Exercise and Sex, posted by johnnyj on November 27, 2006, at 13:38:38
> I am off meds right now and have had this problem with working out since I had pneumonia 5 years ago. It seems to worsen my sleep. My mood rarely drops when I work out it just affects my sleep. It is quite profound too. I can have a good day and do a nice little workout (not too killer) and the next day I will feel terrible. I am still waking up early 4 or so and kind of sweating too.
>
> I wonder if seeing an endorcrinologist is a good idea? We all know the docs see our history or anixety and/or depression and say that is what is going on. But I thought working out is supposed to help this? It doesn't seem to matter when I work out either. I used to feel great working out and now it seems to worsen things. I do get really really tired after a short workout too. Since I have been off meds for a short time (last med about 3 weeks) maybe my body needs time to heal up first? It is so confusing and frustrating.
>
> Any ideas out there? Thanks
>
> johnnyjI was just reading this recently about glutathione and exercise from this site: http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/glut.html
"Strenuous aerobic exercise can deplete antioxidants from the skeletal muscles, and sometimes also from the other organs. Exercise increases the body's oxidative burden by calling on the tissues to generate more energy. Making more ATP requires using more oxygen, and this in turn results in greater production of oxygen free radicals. Studies in humans and animals indicate GSH is depleted by exercise, and that for the habitual exerciser supplementation with GSH precursors may be a prudent policy.31
Some of the other exogenous factors known to deplete tissue GSH include: 1.) Dietary deficiency of methionine, an essential amino acid and GSH precursor. The liver uses 70 percent of the total dietary intake.4 2.) Ionizing radiation, whether as X-rays or ultraviolet from sunlight.32 3.) Tissue injury, as from burns,33 ischemia and reperfusion,34,37 surgery,35 septic shock,4,36 or trauma.37 4.) Iron overload, as in hemochromatosis and transfusional iron excess.25 Surgery can cause iron release from damaged tissue, and unbound iron catalyzes free radical generation via several putative mechanisms. 5.) Bacterial or viral infections, including HIV-1.3,4 6.) Alcohol intake is toxic through a number of differing pathways, some of which are free radical/oxidative in character.38"
Since this started after a bout with pneumonia which would be related to your immune system and glutathione, perhaps some glutathione boosting supplements and/or foods would help? Just guessing. I was reading up on glutathione and also copy/pasted these notes for myself:
"The health food industry promotes glutathione as a very efficient antioxidant to be used against a whole range of diseases. This runs counter to research, which suggests that glutathione is not orally bioactive. Nutritional supplement companies also offer N-acetylcysteine, which has been shown to increase glutathione in vivo.
Excess glutamate at synapses, which may be released in conditions such as traumatic brain injury, can prevent the uptake of cysteine, a necessary building block of glutathione. Without the protection from oxidative injury afforded by glutathione, cells may be damaged or killed.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione
According to this site which sells whey, http://www.1whey2health.com/food-sources-glutathione.htm to boost glutathione naturally: NAC, milk thistle, alpha lopoic acid, curcumin, selenium, undenatured whey protein isolate, balloon flower root, and foods such as asparagus, broccoli, avocado, spinach, raw eggs, (why RAW eggs?) garlic and fresh unprocessed meats.
Ray Sahelian http://www.raysahelian.com/glutathione.html says that cinnamon and cardomon boost glutathione and also, acetylcysteine, methyl donors, alpha lipoic acid, polyphenols such as Pycnogenol, and vitamin B12.
"The frequent use of acetaminophen (Tylenol) depletes glutathione peroxidase levels."
Exercise can also deplete magnesium, so you might try that too if you don't already take it. Perhaps a sedating type of magnesium, such as magnesium glycinate, would help you sleep. Some people need to take some calcium with their magnesium, some not.
JL
Posted by johnnyj on November 28, 2006, at 19:41:14
In reply to Re: Glutathione? Magnesium? » johnnyj, posted by JLx on November 27, 2006, at 19:04:14
Thank you for your post.
I believe years back I discussed mangnesium with you?? Actually, after a week I had wicked insomnia on magnesium. I read that that can happen though. I have been taking some calcium with magnesium but I am being careful but it is helping my night jerks some.
I will need to figure something out as it is becoming quite frustrating. I feel the same way I do now as I did on meds except now my head is clearer. The same sleep issue is there and nothing is helping it. I don't know if it is true or not but I feel something else is off. Maybe wishful thinking but call it gut instinct or something. The problem is the docs just think it probably is anxiety related. I have very little anxiety right now so I don't buy it.
However when working out or sex even makes my sleep horrible something is going on or so I think.
Posted by dessbee on November 29, 2006, at 6:50:14
In reply to Re: Glutathione? Magnesium? » JLx, posted by johnnyj on November 28, 2006, at 19:41:14
Try a fatty fish diet for six weeks.
This will provide at least 20 gram of fish oil.Omega-3 is great at correcting physiologic imbalances and boost serotonin levels.
Posted by JLx on November 29, 2006, at 8:58:45
In reply to Re: Glutathione? Magnesium? » JLx, posted by johnnyj on November 28, 2006, at 19:41:14
> Thank you for your post.
>
> I believe years back I discussed mangnesium with you?? Actually, after a week I had wicked insomnia on magnesium. I read that that can happen though. I have been taking some calcium with magnesium but I am being careful but it is helping my night jerks some.Hi JohnJ, yes I remember your experience with magnesium.
What supplements are you taking now in general? Did the insomnia after exercise/sex begin at any particular point?
What did you think of my information about glutathione? I recently ordered NAC and some other things and am going to try to boost my glutathione before heading into the season where I always get a respiratory virus. I'm hoping that might help with a number of things, such as counteracting the effects of the amalgam fillings I have.
I sleep better when I take Vit E at night, but that might be a female thing.
JL
> I will need to figure something out as it is becoming quite frustrating. I feel the same way I do now as I did on meds except now my head is clearer. The same sleep issue is there and nothing is helping it. I don't know if it is true or not but I feel something else is off. Maybe wishful thinking but call it gut instinct or something. The problem is the docs just think it probably is anxiety related. I have very little anxiety right now so I don't buy it.
>
> However when working out or sex even makes my sleep horrible something is going on or so I think.
Posted by johnnyj on November 29, 2006, at 9:22:38
In reply to Re: fatty fish diet, posted by dessbee on November 29, 2006, at 6:50:14
Fish oil also gave me insomnia so fish oil is out for me.
Posted by dessbee on November 29, 2006, at 12:17:07
In reply to Re: fatty fish diet » dessbee, posted by johnnyj on November 29, 2006, at 9:22:38
Yes, fish oil causes insomnia. I have the same experience, but for some reason I do tolerate fatty fish.
Maybee it is the same case for you.
Posted by Tomatheus on December 1, 2006, at 2:34:53
In reply to Exercise and Sex, posted by johnnyj on November 27, 2006, at 13:38:38
Johnnyj,
Exercise has been shown to increase blood ammonia levels, and ammonia toxicity in the brain is thought to result in symptoms including loss of coordination, ataxia, altered sleep pattern, coma, and convulsion (Banister & Cameron, 1990). Theoretically, ammonia levels are probably high to begin with in individuals with abnormally high levels of MAO-A and/or MAO-B because ammonia is a byproduct of monoamine oxidization. Higher MAO-A and/or MAO-B levels should presumably increase the rate of monoamine oxidization, which would then increase the amount of ammonia that's released into the body over any given period of time. Consequently, those with elevated MAO-A and/or MAO-B levels would probably be more likely to develop hyperammonemia after a moderate increase in ammonia due to exercise than those with MAO levels that are abnormally low or within the normal range.
So, clearly one way to reduce ammonia (at least from a theoretical standpoint) would be to inhibit MAO-A and/or MAO-B. Aeon recently pointed out on this board that quercetin has been shown to have MAO-inhibiting properties, so perhaps that might be worth trying. Or, you might want to try another supplement that has been said to inhibit one or both of the MAO enzymes, such as turmeric or FO-TI. And of course, there are also the MAOI medications: phenelzine (Nardil), tranylcypromine (Parnate), isocarboxazid (Marplan), selegiline (EMSAM, Eldepryl), and moclobemide (Manerix, Aurorix). I should point out, however, that I have reason to believe that all of the versions of Nardil that are currently available contain ammonia (that forms after hydrazine undergoes chemical degradation in the presence of moisture) and produce even more ammonia after phenelzine (Nardil's active ingredient) undergoes degredation to hydrazine and then to ammonia in the stomach.
Another source of ammonia is glutamate. So, as the case should be with MAO-inhibiting compounds, supplements and drugs that reduce glutamate neurotransmission (or the stimulation of NMDA receptors, to be more precise) should also indirectly lower ammonia levels. Reducing your intake of caffeine should also theoretically lower glutamate levels and NMDA stimulation (which would in turn lower ammonia levels), since caffeine is believed to indirectly boost glutamate levels.
Interestingly, taurine has been shown to reduce the levels of cyclic GMP and hydroxyl radicals, which accumulate in response to the stimulation of glutamate NMDA receptors or the administration of ammonium chloride (Hilgier et al., 2003). So, taurine should theoretically reduce the damage that results from hyperammonemia. I have personally found taurine to be moderately effective in preventing and relieving symptoms such as muscle aches and excessive sweating, which tend to develop abnormally quickly when I exercise in a state of moderate to severe depression (and developed *extremely* rapidly when I took film-coated versions of Nardil). I have also found that taurine tends to reduce the jitteriness and agitation that I sometimes feel as a result of consuming caffeinated beverages, which isn't surprising considering that caffeine indirectly raises ammonia levels and taurine indirectly lowers them.
Suffice it to say, I definitely recommend taurine -- at least in addition to other supplements or meds, if nothing else.
Hope this helps.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCES
Banister, E. W., & Cameron, B. J. C. (1990). Exercise-induced hyperammonemia: Peripheral and central effects. International Journal of Sports Medicine, 11, S129-S142.
Hilgier, W., Anderzhanova, E., Oja, S. S., Saransaari, P., & Albrecht, J. (2003). Taurine reduces ammonia- and N-methyl-D-aspartate induced accumulation of cyclic GMP and hydroxyl radicals in microdialysates of the rat striatum. European Journal of Pharmacology, 468, 21-25.
==
> I am off meds right now and have had this problem with working out since I had pneumonia 5 years ago. It seems to worsen my sleep. My mood rarely drops when I work out it just affects my sleep. It is quite profound too. I can have a good day and do a nice little workout (not too killer) and the next day I will feel terrible. I am still waking up early 4 or so and kind of sweating too.
>
> I wonder if seeing an endorcrinologist is a good idea? We all know the docs see our history or anixety and/or depression and say that is what is going on. But I thought working out is supposed to help this? It doesn't seem to matter when I work out either. I used to feel great working out and now it seems to worsen things. I do get really really tired after a short workout too. Since I have been off meds for a short time (last med about 3 weeks) maybe my body needs time to heal up first? It is so confusing and frustrating.
>
> Any ideas out there? Thanks
>
> johnnyj
Posted by johnnyj on December 1, 2006, at 21:13:07
In reply to Re: Exercise and Sex » johnnyj, posted by Tomatheus on December 1, 2006, at 2:34:53
Thank you so much I am going to look at these supplements. I wonder if it depends on what type of exercise one does? Is ammonia released more if it is aerobic or anearobic type of exercise? I have some taurine, time to take some and see. Thank you
johnnyj
Posted by Tomatheus on December 2, 2006, at 0:38:33
In reply to Re: Exercise and Sex » Tomatheus, posted by johnnyj on December 1, 2006, at 21:13:07
> I wonder if it depends on what type of exercise one does? Is ammonia released more if it is aerobic or anearobic type of exercise?
In their report, Banister & Cameron (1990) wrote that ammonia is produced mostly from "fast-twitch muscle, particularly during intense (anaerobic) exercise." They cited evidence from four studies to support this statement. However, Banister & Cameron (1990) also reported that hyperoxia raises muscle and plasma ammonia levels, while "hypoxic acclimation" has been shown to reduce exercise-induced hyperammonamia during "submaximum exercise."
So, judging from the Banister & Cameron (1990) review article, it seems that the rapid "fast-twitch" muscle movements that are made during anaerobic exercise produce large amounts of ammonia over relatively short periods of time. However, the reduction in PO2 levels that results from anaerobic exercise appears to reduce ammonia. It might be the case that the metabolism that occurs in human muscles becomes anaerobic during periods of intense exercise as a way of compensating for the elevation in ammonia levels that follows rapid muscle movements, but I'm basically just speculating. Unfortunately, the evidence seems to be somewhat contradictory.
> I have some taurine, time to take some and see. Thank you
You're welcome. I hope that you notice some benefits from the taurine.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCE
Banister, E. W., & Cameron, B. J. C. (1990). Exercise-induced hyperammonemia: Peripheral and central effects. International Journal of Sports Medicine, 11, S129-S142.
Posted by madeline on December 2, 2006, at 20:07:16
In reply to Exercise and Sex, posted by johnnyj on November 27, 2006, at 13:38:38
I think what you need to do is go to a doctor.
What meds did you come off of recently?
Did the pneumonia scar your lungs?
Posted by johnnyj on December 3, 2006, at 15:12:38
In reply to Re: Exercise and Sex » johnnyj, posted by madeline on December 2, 2006, at 20:07:16
Hi:
I have been to doctors but what they usually say is that it is probably anxiety related. Even though I think exercise helps disorders. Once a person is branded with a disorder they seem to default to it right away. Funny thing is there are times when I have no anxiety and this problem is still there. Nobody seems to do much as far as checking it beyond an office visit.
I have no scarring and my lung capacity is good. It seems to be a energy/metabolism issue to me.
It is quite the mystery to me and the docs.
johnnyj
Posted by madeline on December 3, 2006, at 19:57:24
In reply to Re: Exercise and Sex » madeline, posted by johnnyj on December 3, 2006, at 15:12:38
Oh man, do I hear you. If one more doc asks me if I'm taking my meds for depression, I think I'll kill myself (just a joke there).
I've never tried this, but I wonder if you went to a completely different doc that really didn't know your history if you could get a more complete work-up.
I don't know what to tell you, except that moderate exercise should make you feel better, not worse. I'm worried about your fatigue post workout.
Do you think you get really dehydrated during exercise?
Posted by johnnyj on December 3, 2006, at 22:00:03
In reply to Re: Exercise and Sex » johnnyj, posted by madeline on December 3, 2006, at 19:57:24
I don't get dehydrated too bad as I am doing weight lifting most of the time and don't sweat too much to be honest.
I am adding calcium supplements as I haven't eaten any dairy for 2 years.
Yes, the post workout depression was terrible about 10 days ago. I was almost unable to move for an hour and it was a very very light workout. I had not been taking anything for my allergies so it could have been that too.
Yes, something is going on but no doc is interested in testing me for anything.
This is the end of the thread.
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