![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 19:00:05
You must consciously relinquish all the benefits of the wound. Honestly acknowldege the benefits you get from not forgiving. You may find that they are not consistent with the person you want to be. You may find they are not really benefits.
The wound clung to---we use the wound as an excuse to not create a new world for ourselves. We become dependent on it and live in the past.
When you have been gravely wounded your ego struggles and squirms to get some benefits, to hold onto it. You might indulge in ostentatious martyrdom, try to use guilt to your advantqge. Brandish your wound, force people to treat you with kid gloves,to give you your way.
To withhold forgiveness is to choose to remain the victim. To pretend false forgiveness is a power move.Dishonesty will always either bite you you know where (if you are honest) or increase your self-delusional sanctimoniouness, causing pain you can't imagine to the traffic victims you leave in your wake.
"Forgivenes is giving up the resentment to which you are entitled, and offering to the person who hurt you friendlier attitudes than he/she is entitled to."
False "forgiveness" is neither magnamimous nor gracious. It is an outward inflicted replica of your own ancient wound.
Posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 19:12:33
In reply to forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 19:00:05
(I didn't write this, can't claim authorship. Unfortunately, I didn't note the source, (I'm no academic)lo those many months ago I jotted this into my journal. It's been a useful referent in my own life, and hope it may be of use to one or two of you.)
Posted by daisym on July 20, 2004, at 19:44:39
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 19:12:33
Some things are unforgivable.
You can choose to move on, to move past or to recreate a relationship. You may need to relinquish sorrow or anger. Some people might also need to stop "using" their wound, as you say, in self-destructive or manipulative ways.
But having experienced too many "dark nights of the soul" I don't want or need to be told to forgive.
Because some things remain forever unforgivable.
Posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 20:03:15
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by daisym on July 20, 2004, at 19:44:39
yes, you are right.
i don't mean to speak of the REAL unforgiveables.
I mean the smaller things, for which forgiveness is more to the benefit of the forgiver than the forgiven.
i mean forgiving the narcissistic father, the dead mother who couldn't love you....
I can't even forgive them, though I keep struggling to do so. Abuse of another, more serious sort, abuse of magnitude, should not, probably, be forgiven at all.
I don't mean that severe abuse, that real abuse. Please accept my apology for sounding so general, so universal. I only know my own small, though life-crippling ,variety of abuse, which I will spend the rest of my life trying to forgive.
For my own sake, not theirs.
(((daisy)))
Posted by daisym on July 20, 2004, at 20:28:54
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 20:03:15
No need for apologies. Really. I'm sorry I came off harsh. I've had a rough couple of weeks and had just come from a therapy session where the younger parts of me wanted to talk, didn't know what to say and so didn't talk. I think SHE came out here and just vented.
Please keep posting and don't minimize your own pain. Everyone's experience is different but that doesn't mean you aren't hurting or one thing is worse than another. You are brave in your struggle to forgive. I'm just not there yet.
Friends?
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 21:38:55
In reply to forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 19:00:05
Magnamimous nor Gracious, huh? Interesting choice of words.
Yeah, I'd agree. False forgiveness isn't something I traffic in. I don't believe in true forgiveness either, not without the three R's. Remorse, taking Responsibility, and Reparations.
I believe in not holding on to anger. And I believe in taking responsibility for whatever role I might play in a conflict. And I believe that what I do is what I do, and doesn't depend on what someone else does. In other words, it's my responsibility to do the right thing even if someone else hasn't.
What I really hate is forgiving someone who hurt someone else. Jewish law says that only those who have been hurt can grant forgiveness for a crime. I am utterly disgusted at all the people who rush to give forgiveness to people who have done others harm, but absolutely no harm to the person granting forgiveness. Mass murderers and the like.
Nor do I particularly care to judge the severity of harm to someone else as being minor. Again, I sort of think that's up to the person harmed. I still hear "kids will be kids" ringing in my ears.
And even after forgiveness, I don't believe that forgiveness means trusting again. You might be able to tell I'm a Dr. Laura fan when I say "Forgive, but tie up the camel."
Posted by gabbix2 on July 20, 2004, at 22:53:27
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 21:38:55
>What I really hate is forgiving someone who hurt >someone else. Jewish law says that only those >who have been hurt can grant forgiveness for a >crime. I am utterly disgusted at all the people >who rush to give forgiveness to people who have >done others harm, but absolutely no harm to the >person granting forgiveness.
Me too, so much so I'm at a loss for words just from reading that.
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 23:03:51
In reply to Re: forgiveness » Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on July 20, 2004, at 22:53:27
I'm glad it meant something to you, Gabbi.
And I had just been sorry I had posted it. lol.
I was posting my general thoughts on forgiveness in general. Ones that I loudly and happily proclaim everywhere. As in so many things, my ideas on forgiveness are very Jewish in nature.
And then I realized that that paragraph might be taken to refer to what's going on on the board at the moment. :O And I realized I had done it again. Or maybe I'm just being oversensitive to causing offense at the moment.
Posted by gabbix2 on July 20, 2004, at 23:23:53
In reply to Re: forgiveness » gabbix2, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 23:03:51
> I was posting my general thoughts on forgiveness in general.
That's exactly how it came across to me.
>again. Or maybe I'm just being oversensitive to causing offense at the moment.Only at the moment eh? *giggle*
Dinah you are gifted with wisdom insight and that twinkle of humour (don't think it goes unnoticed, dry as it may be) that inspires so many of us.
When we tell you that you are a champion, like PartlyCloudy and I did today, please don't think it's because of the *one* thing you've done, or a characteristic that could change at any moment-- because it's always been there Dinah. You're some kinda woman.
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 23:26:36
In reply to Re: forgiveness » Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on July 20, 2004, at 23:23:53
(and you know me so well regarding the "only at the moment" - grin)
Posted by gabbix2 on July 20, 2004, at 23:30:18
In reply to forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 19:00:05
> False "forgiveness" is neither magnamimous nor gracious.
I, too found the words magnanimous and gracious
an "interesting" choice especially in a post ostensibly about forgiveness. I'm also curious as to how it can be magnanimous to forgive if you are doing it "for your own sake not theirs"
Posted by JenStar on July 21, 2004, at 0:27:39
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 21:38:55
Hey...another Dr. Laura fan! My mom got "into" her a few years ago and my sisters & I all listened to her show. I like her brand of no-nonsense advice.
Cool post!
JenStar
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2004, at 5:31:18
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by JenStar on July 21, 2004, at 0:27:39
Great to meet another Dr. Laura fan. They're hard to come by sometimes. :)
Posted by henrietta on July 21, 2004, at 8:06:40
In reply to Re: forgiveness » henrietta, posted by daisym on July 20, 2004, at 20:28:54
Oh, yes, friends.
I'm not really there, either, but I want to be.
I'm older than most people here so the question of forgiveness probably has a lot more urgency for me. When you're young you have time to either forgive or come to peace by some other route....I just don't want to live the rest of my life with this knot in my soul, yet I can't seem to figure out how to truly eradicate it. I wonder if it's possible at all?
I'm sure it must be. I'm sure there are people who have achieved it. (But I do agree some things are not forgiveable.)
Thanks for your kind reply, daisy.
Posted by henrietta on July 21, 2004, at 8:17:25
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 21, 2004, at 8:06:40
Posted by DaisyM on July 21, 2004, at 9:56:27
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 21, 2004, at 8:06:40
Nice to be thought of as young. I read recently "I'm both younger and older than I seem. Yes, I am full of ages."
Chronologically early 40's...emotionally 12 right now.
*sigh*
Posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2004, at 11:14:37
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 21:38:55
Magnamimous and Gracious are indeed interesting choices (grin)
Dr. Laura isn't available here anymore, but I am a big fan of Miss Manners. And I come from the south, so graciousness has been instilled in me since birth (not that I don't slip up or anything.)
This trait, in my mind has nothing to do with forgiveness, true or false. To me it is a way of "putting yourself above the fray" and to hold your head up with pride, even if you are internally angry. It worked well for me as a kid and a victim of bullying, and it works now.
It's also a way to refuse to to get caught in a spitting match.
Does this make sense?
Posted by pegasus on July 21, 2004, at 12:38:39
In reply to forgiveness, posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 19:00:05
The whole idea of forgiveness really confuses me. People talk about it as though it's something you can choose to do. It doesn't *feel* that way to me, though. I have forgiven people, but it feels more like something that just sometimes eventually happens over time as I gain distance and perspective. And sometimes it just doesn't.
There have certainly been things in my life that I've tried to move beyond, or examine my role in, or rise above. But I wouldn't say that forgiveness was really part of that equation. Sometimes I ended up forgiving, and sometimes not.
So, I'm curious whether you all feel that you are able to choose to forgive. If you develop that magnanamous, generous feeling then you've probably changed your attitude, and reframed the issue in your life to be more workable. But deep down underneath it all, have you really forgiven the other person at all?
pegasus
Posted by karen_kay on July 21, 2004, at 13:12:46
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2004, at 21:38:55
hmmmm, i know what i'm going to say will make no sense at all. but, i'm going to say it anyway. and, i'll read it later and think 'that makes no sense, even to me!'
i can agree with what you said. all of it. and i can say i agree with it. but, i can also say that i have a different view in my way of seeing forgiveness. or, why i strive to teach people to forgive others.
ok (and here comes the 'talking in circles' and 'making absolutely no sense' part of kk that so often comes out, so bear with me :)
i think that everyone has a right to try to teach others ot forgive, whether they were involved or not with the situation at hand. because it only takes that one word, that one person, that one idea that magically *sticks*...
(i think and again these are only the words of me, kk, unless of course someone once told me this and i'm stealing their ideas... if that's the case then speak up and i'll give you credit!)
ok, where was i? ok, it only takes that one idea, that right person, those magic words, that one point of view, phrased jsut the right way, on the perfect day, to make it stick! to make one think. so, whether the person speaking of forgiveness has had to forgive another of murder, or only forgive their dog of pooping on the floor.. it's all about their heart. and it takes that heart. that magic heart, that speaks about forgiveness on that magic day, when you are ready to hear it.
and about trusting... i have trust issues. i'll admit it. i'm working through them. but, i also have a real problem with being naive and thinking that no one ever wants to hurt me. (see, i never make sense do i?) why would anyone want to hurt me? and when people 'tell my secrets' even i laugh because rather than be angry about them betraying my trust i realize there isn't a such thing as a secret anyway. and that's usually the first person i call when i have a new secret. and, when i call my mom for support and she responds cooly 'want to talk to your sister?' she's again the first person i call the next time for support. though, i do the quick follow-up call to my sister. (but, trust me. if i have children, i wont' let her babysit, but only because she'll complain about it, and i jsut can't stand to listen to her complain.)
Posted by karen_kay on July 21, 2004, at 13:18:41
In reply to Re: forgiveness » Dinah, posted by karen_kay on July 21, 2004, at 13:12:46
this hit me pretty hard.... i read it a few days ago. thank you miss jai. seems you inspire me in more ways than you know dear.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20040408/msgs/366672.html
Posted by karen_kay on July 21, 2004, at 13:26:57
In reply to Re: forgiveness, posted by pegasus on July 21, 2004, at 12:38:39
right pegasus, i think that's a lot of what i was saying. about the right words being said, at just the right time. when you're in just the right frame of mind. i think part of it is an active choice. and part of it is something else too. honestly, i wish i knew... (there i go. being dense again :)
i think the more you try to forgive, and the more you think about forgiving, the more it doesn't come. but, perhaps the more you jsut let it pass over you (do i sound like some kind of a new age person in a moo moo?) like a feeling (hmmm, is it a feeling? do i sound dense again? shoudl i just stop here? at least i'm feeling better though. thank you for the distraction. i needed it!)... but, the more you jsut allow it to come, when it needs to, then it will. like, letting a cloud pass over the sun. (good grief, i sound like jai, not that that's a bad thing.)
my therapist says you can choose to forgive. and i suppose you can. but, you can also decide that it will come in time, when it's time to come. like a change in weather. and when you are ready to hear the right things, from the right person, you will. and it will make sense.
but, that's jsut what i think. and, if i hear soemthing better, i'll probably change my mind, and take to that philosophy....
Posted by daisym on July 21, 2004, at 13:37:20
In reply to Re: non-forgiveness is ok » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2004, at 11:14:37
Exactly! I was taught to be a lady and this has served me well in so many situations. A classy exterior provides armor in a multitude of situations. Though I think some things are unforgivable, I do believe that you don't need to continually vent to everyone about the crappy things life has thrown your way.
The flip side to this is that people misinterpret you as "cold" or as someone who gets over things quickly. Which may or may not be true.
The complexities of a Christian viewpoint on forgiveness are staggering. Ultimately I guess I want to believe that God will take the measure of someone's life, good and bad and assess their worthiness of forgiveness. Because they can ask him to do something that is beyond me, a mere mortal.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2004, at 16:34:41
In reply to Re: non-forgiveness is ok » AuntieMel, posted by daisym on July 21, 2004, at 13:37:20
Exactly to you, too.
Graciousness is behavior. A good behavior in my opinion. I would rather be thought of as "cold" than react negatively and be thought of as a b**ch.
Forgiveness, however comes from the heart. This can't be forced and often takes a long time. The person that can take being purposely hurt, or has trust betrayed and forgive immediately (or says they do, more likely) seems to be a bit too needy.
And Dinah is right. You can't forgive a person for what they did to someone else - it just isn't your right. But you can try to understand what the offending person's motivations are and *maybe* help soften the hurt.
Posted by pegasus on July 21, 2004, at 16:58:14
In reply to Re: non-forgiveness is ok » daisym, posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2004, at 16:34:41
> And Dinah is right. You can't forgive a person for what they did to someone else - it just isn't your right. But you can try to understand what the offending person's motivations are and *maybe* help soften the hurt.I agree that the only thing that a given person can forgive is the part that actually hurt them. But I just wanted to clarify that sometimes we're hurt by seeing people we care about hurt by others, too. So I guess in that sense, one could forgive someone for the hurt they inflict on one by hurting a third party.
Sorry. Nitpicking here.
pegasus
Posted by henrietta on July 21, 2004, at 19:02:04
In reply to Re: non-forgiveness is ok, posted by pegasus on July 21, 2004, at 16:58:14
So many thoughtful and thought-provoking posts.
I'm overhwelmed. As a person who feels guilty for everything---global warming, the war in iraq, my younger siblings' dysfunction, the death of our planet, my mother's suffering---I think the person I most need to forgive is myself. According to my mother, I was born evil. I keep thinking if I can find a way to forgive myself, I can find a way to forgive others. Or is it the other way around? If I can learn to forgive others, can I learn to forgive myself?
It is a difficult and confusing topic. Thank you one and all for your contributioons to this discussion.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.