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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shortelise on October 6, 2004, at 13:14:50
I wonder if any of you would be willing to tell me what you think The Point of therapy is. Maybe from the context of beginning, the middle, and the end - for those of you who have been there.
I was unable to work, tortured by anxiety, loathed myself, and had no idea who I was. At that point, I hoped therapy would help me live without anxiety.
In the middle, The Point seemed to be to understand why I felt the way I felt. Simple, yup.
Now, in the end phase, it seems The Point of it all was ... to give me enough insight into myself to deal with situations and feelings that arise in a way that doesn't hurt me or anyone else.
Can I compare it to cooking? If you know how to make a base for a stew, slowly slowly browning diced onions and celery, adding a bit of liquid, cooking it off until it it begins to brown again, adding a bit more liquid, enriching the flavour by doing this over and over again, then adding a piece of beef or two, browning and browning until all the beef is added, slowly, and thus achieving a deep, rich flavour.
If you know how to do that with your basic beef stew, then you know how to make a Mexican stew, or a Chinese stew, or an Algerian stew, because the method is the same, it's the ingredients that change. Instead you might brown carrots and peppers, and use lamb instead of beef. But it's the same basic method.The Point is to move out into the world with those basic methods of living, and to find our way with them.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2004, at 23:35:22
In reply to The Point of therapy, posted by shortelise on October 6, 2004, at 13:14:50
I think you have done a terrific job of clarifying your idea of what therapy should be.
I'm not nearly so clear. :)
These days, I'll bet therapy is a short term educational service for most clients. Walk in with a presenting problem, be taught tools to deal with them. Therapist and client meeting as two adults, with the therapist more of a paid professional working for the client.
I think that's probably how I started. "I'm having panic attacks. I don't want to know why or explore the roots of my whatever. Just give me a toolkit and tell me how to use the tools in it."
But it turns out that the panic attacks were related to stressors in my environment. And when I took the time to think back, I realized that I had always responded to stress badly. I bear up well for a while, then fall apart. So therapy became a way to keep me functioning at my best ability.
I guess for some people, then, therapy can be a way to keep working and fulfilling obligations without falling apart. Maintenance. I think that's what it is for me. As my therapist says, that doesn't mean that growth can't happen along the way. :) But therapy itself becomes part of the toolbox. Right alongside meditation, relaxation techniques, exercise, hot baths, ice cream, and medications. I suspect this view of therapy is not culturally popular. It's expected that you're to go to therapy, get as fixed as possible, and move on into real life. The idea of using therapy itself to maximize real life is frequently not well received. I don't think of it as therapy as a way of life so much as therapy as an aide to life. But that's me, and I never intend to leave, so I may be biased.
I suspect others are looking for healing. I think that is probably what you describe.
And others are probably looking for enhancements. They aren't really unwell, they're just looking to understand themselves better or to maximize their lives in some way.
And maybe there are many more points. Maybe as many points as there are clients. :)
At least that's my guess. I'll have to ask my therapist.
Posted by vwoolf on October 7, 2004, at 1:11:32
In reply to Re: The Point of therapy » shortelise, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2004, at 23:35:22
I think for me therapy at the moment is a place where I can find some rest. The tensions of my life and feelings of craziness have been overwhelming for some years now, and at last I have found a small place where I can drop my guard and just be. However I am now seeing my T five times a week, and it still doesn't feel contained enough. Apart from that I spend most of my time lying on my bed, playing solitaire or reading (note that I am the primary bread-winner in my family, so this creates huge problems. I am not sure where to go from here. Hospitalisation?
Posted by sunny10 on October 7, 2004, at 8:49:03
In reply to Re: The Point of therapy, posted by vwoolf on October 7, 2004, at 1:11:32
> I think for me therapy at the moment is a place where I can find some rest. The tensions of my life and feelings of craziness have been overwhelming for some years now, and at last I have found a small place where I can drop my guard and just be. However I am now seeing my T five times a week, and it still doesn't feel contained enough. Apart from that I spend most of my time lying on my bed, playing solitaire or reading (note that I am the primary bread-winner in my family, so this creates huge problems. I am not sure where to go from here. Hospitalisation?
vwoolf,
You are already taking steps in the right direction. Hospitalization should be your last resort. Going to therapy five times a week is a huge commitment, so you are obviously willing to do whatever it takes to get better. You don't need to become institutionalized. That is another thing to "get over" in the long run. You are better off without it.
As far as being the breadwinner goes, can anyone else contribute to the "breadbox"? Spouse, family, friends, welfare system, short term disability payments, anything? Even a short term loan from the bank might help the "for now".
It seems obvious to me that there are very concrete reasons that you are stressed out! Mental illness only exacerbates the situation.
Perhaps you should give yourself permission to "just be" more often. "Use" your illness to demand a break from some stressful things. For instance, there is no rule that says that every meal must be home cooked, or that every floor must be swept, every surface dusted, et cetera.
We are overworking ourselves to death in the current culture. We need to advocate for ourselves. Demand "mini-vacations"- hang out for an hour a day/night in the basement or attic (or local library, whatever) and declare yourself out of the country and unable to be reached for an hour. Delegate duties to other members of the family. Working full time, being the fulltime homemaker, and "referee" to all squabbles as well would eventually land everyone in bed, playing solitaire, not just those of us with mental illnesses !I know it's hard to make your loved ones listen, and harder to say "no"- I have those same problems, which is why your post really spoke to me. I am very afraid of "confrontation", which to me means any time I say something that someone else doesn't want to hear. I had to literally call the house from a block away, get my son and boyfriend both on the phone at once, to tell them that I was going to make myself unavailable for at least an hour a day.
And, you know what? They were completely unfazed, said "ok, see ya whenever you get home". It hadn't occurred to me that the only one who cared that the house was a mess was ME.
Or that they would rather battle things out for themselves than have me step in to referee. I was putting all these expectations on myself!Breathe slowly in and out- you WILL get through this. Your therapy will help. But force YOU to help you, too.
Big (((vwoolf)))) Hugs and kisses,
sunny10
Posted by Daisym on October 7, 2004, at 10:26:11
In reply to The Point of therapy, posted by shortelise on October 6, 2004, at 13:14:50
When I started all this, I wanted to know "why?" I felt so unhappy, to the point of suicide, when things weren't drastically different from the way they were a year prior. Therapy was the tool to help me understand this and, I hoped, to fix it, make the feelings go away. So I could go back to how I was.
Hmmm...therapy helped me think about my life, all of it, not just the last year. The analogy that fits is this: My task has been to carry a really heavy load across the desert, with little water and no food. At first, you know it is heavy and you are hot, but you can do it. But the longer you do it, the heavier the load is and the weaker you are. You can't put the load down because it is very precious to you. So you drag yourself along. But the desert is huge and this is taking a really long time. You figure out you need help.
OK, so now therapy is my "help" instead of my "cure". Because I still have the load and I'm still in the desert. Only NOW I'm aware that there are bandits in the desert to deal with too. So I need protection. My therapist has become my protection in many ways. And I'm also lost. So my therapist is my guide and he has the map, even if he forgets to look at it sometimes. And sometimes we have to back track to the water hole we found, because I can't keep going without a rest.
Right now my hope is low that I will ever get out of the desert and be allowed to put the load down. And sometimes I think I would make better time if I just tried to follow a straight line, and not use a guide. But I tell myself that water is a life-giving force. And I need the guide to remind me where the water is, or how to find a new source of it.
Ultimately, the point for me would be to get out of the desert, which is a painful place to be, and to learn to accept help carrying the load, so I'm not alone with it.
I'm starting to pray for a helicopter.
Posted by Annierose on October 7, 2004, at 12:07:08
In reply to Re: The Point of therapy » shortelise, posted by Daisym on October 7, 2004, at 10:26:11
Daisym -
I love your desert analogy. It's perfect! And I think we all need to remember, that no one leads a perfect life. Everyone has a "load" to carry, just some of us have heavier loads, and I would sure like to dump mine off somewhere far away. I am not even thinking about terminating right now, but I do not think it will be at a exact point when I think, "everything is okay now". I just don't think that point exists. It may be years away (part of me hopes anyway) but it will be when I do not need to rely upon the "guide". That I created my own roadmap, with my very own "key". Yes, I'll still get lost, still struggle, but I'll be more self reliant. But I'll sure miss my T and know she will be there if I lost my map entirely. -Annie
Posted by tabitha on October 7, 2004, at 13:38:32
In reply to The Point of therapy, posted by shortelise on October 6, 2004, at 13:14:50
When I started I wanted relief from all the painful relationship patterns in my life. I was constantly extremely upset over coworker interactions, and got into a 'social outcast' role a lot without understanding what I was doing to get there. Plus my love life was chaotic and painful to the extreme. I think I imagined that therapy would transform me into a socially popular person who sailed through office politics and social situations, and had all the friends and dates I could ever want. Well that still hasn't happened.
We went through several phases. I'd say the major issues were (1) becoming more aware of my feelings-- feeling them instead of acting them out, (2) stopping my alcohol abuse, (3) dealing with grief over my mom's suicide, which happened a couple years after I'd started therapy, (4) changing my unhealthy love life pattern and my social reject pattern, (5) support through my bipolar diagnosis and ongoing effort to learn what a 'stable' mood felt like, (6) lots of cognitive re-training. A lifetime of depression had left me with some pretty distorted thinking. (7) ongoing lessons in understanding other people. My T has a radically different take on what makes people tick than I did. (8) lots of general support.
I never did achieve popularity. In fact I often complain to her that I'm more isolated than before I started therapy. I think my unhealthy relationship patterns did serve to suck a few people into my life. Now that I'm not using those patterns, I haven't figured out a new approach.
Whenever I talk about goals with my T, she seems big on the idea that the best goal for me to have is self-acceptance and inner peace.
Thanks for the topic, ShortE-- it was a good exercise for me to take stock.
Posted by vwoolf on October 7, 2004, at 14:48:59
In reply to Re: The Point of therapy, posted by sunny10 on October 7, 2004, at 8:49:03
Sunny10
Thanks for the long, thoughtful post. Yes, confrontation is very difficult. I have also started saying “no”, in a limited way, but it is exhausting work.
My situation is pretty crazy. On the one hand I am efficient at work where I am creative, assertive, successful on an international level in a feminist type environment. On the other I live through what sometimes seems like a completely traditional marriage - I produce three course meals every night, keep the house functioning, look after our child, take books back to the library etc etc etc etc. On a further hand I act as a geisha to my husband - I trim his toenails, accompany him to brothels and take part in the entanglements with the woman he selects for the evening (I hope Dr Bob admires my restraint in use of language), and occasionally get involved sexually with his male friends on his instigation. I have been perfect on all fronts. Btw, I was incestually abused by my father as a child and have huge difficulties with boundaries.
Lately I have found that I simply can’t handle the contradictions. I can’t bring friends home from work because they can’t understand how I can be so different. I can’t bear my husband’s conservative opinions around the role of the woman in the house, but feel that there is still some common ground with him. Like you I have started saying “no” to certain things, perhaps not the most obvious ones, but I find it so difficult to keep firm to that. A year ago I started to refuse to touch his toenails. Recently I have started refusing any sexual advances which is causing huge tension. I see my father’s face every time my husband turns to me in bed.
At the same time I have a very active sexual imagination and needs, and feel that I might be prepared to continue the sexual experimentation outside our marital bed but on my terms, not his. I have also begun to dream of a lesbian relationship - a place where I can find understanding, companionship, on a non-abusive, equal basis. This is probably also an illusion??
I realize that my experience is not a common one, and that few contributors here will be able to identify fully with my life. It is very split with huge contradictions. I think that at the moment I am using therapy to rest because so much else is happening inside me. Hospital doesn’t feel like an option this evening, but that may change by tomorrow morning. My T rules it out altogether, but I have spent time in hospital before and found it incredibly peaceful. Sometimes I wish for that kind of peace again. With no pressure on an everyday level. To just sit and twiddle my thumbs.
Oh, dear. I do hope I haven’t offended you with my post. You will understand that these are things I can’t say anywhere except in therapy or anonymously like here. I feel totally alone in my life at the moment. Directionless. And so I play solitaire…………
I understand how difficult it must be for you to say “no”. We seem to be brought up to be such good little girls, who will always do their best and never rebel or ask for anything for themselves. Until one day….I sometimes wonder where it will stop once we start saying no. A few days ago I talked to my husband about what I was going through. He is not a fool (even though he is a university lecturer), and at the end he asked, quite sadly, will you still want to be with me at the end of your therapy. I had to be honest. I told him I didn’t know.
A warm hug (purely platonic, I promise)
Posted by sunny10 on October 8, 2004, at 9:25:24
In reply to Re: The Point of therapy » sunny10, posted by vwoolf on October 7, 2004, at 14:48:59
Vwoolf,
No wonder you are so conflicted! Honey, I fully believe that all humans are capable of being bi-sexual... we are ALL hedonists to a certain extent. But just keep in mind that the idea of "becoming" a lesbian does not exist. You cannot "become" a lesbian. You can experiment, but your sexual preference is obviously men, but in a very conflicted way. You are just looking for new and different ways to escape all of this pressure.
We ARE so alike- I just knew it ! I, too hold a very lucrative position where my creativity and assertiveness at work and have been a complete doormat at home !
The issue for you is coming to terms with the fact that your husband IS treating you like a geisha instead of a spouse. And you are growing more emotionally mature IN SPITE of what you were put through at a very early age. You KNOW now that you deserve to be treated just as respectfully in your personal life as in your professional life.
I wonder, what are the skeletons hiding in your husband's inner child. What did HE go through as a child to cause him to act this way towards his wife? And can you help HIM mature emotionally?
And, deep down inside, is it worth all of the heartache and work to help him and yourself?
How old are the kids at this point? I ask because I divorced my husband when my child was only three and a half. I didn't know that I suffered from chemical depression, then. And I didn't realize that I had chosen the same emotional abuser for a husband that my father had been. My father also hit, so I guess my demented mind thought that made my ex-husband a better man, just because he broke things and was very hurtful - humiliated me in public, et cetera.
He wasn't a better man. There are a lot of emotionally damaged men out there who "prey" on vulnerable women. I'm sure you've heard that. My ex was one. And it sounds like YOUR husband is one, also.
From your post, it seems to me that you no longer want to take part in the brothel atmosphere and subsequent "entertainment". So don't do it. You didn't tell me, will your husband hurt you physically if you refuse?
Please let me know how you are doing. You, LittleGirlLost, and AdaGrace are worrying me.
I have been parts of each of you, and have worked HARD to overcome those parts. Any help I can give, even a platonic HUGE hig, an ear (eye?) to listen, whatever.
I, and many others, are here for you.
((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))
sunny10
Posted by corafree on October 25, 2004, at 15:26:04
In reply to The Point of therapy, posted by shortelise on October 6, 2004, at 13:14:50
I had typed a longer post, but accidentally checked no message, then went to revise, and well ya' know 'poof went the message'. This is the last post I have seen from you. I think my DBT therapy is to teach me to communicate in a way that gets my needs met, and not at the other person(s)' expense. Hope to hear from you again. cf
Posted by shortelise on October 27, 2004, at 17:16:07
In reply to The Point of therapy, posted by shortelise on October 6, 2004, at 13:14:50
tryig again
Posted by Annierose on October 27, 2004, at 18:06:53
In reply to Re: The Point of therapy, posted by shortelise on October 27, 2004, at 17:16:07
Just to clarify ... are you trying therapy again?
or this thread? I thought you received great responses (things to ponder) with the first thread.
Posted by corafree on October 28, 2004, at 2:51:23
In reply to Re: The Point of therapy, posted by shortelise on October 27, 2004, at 17:16:07
Lots of good feedback to your original post of October 6. I agree completely with your 'point' of therapy; if you can work well w/ your therapist, and address issues as arise. Glad you are back. Your reply here is very short. Hope you're well. cf
> tryig again
Posted by shortelise on October 28, 2004, at 17:43:24
In reply to Re: What do you mean? » shortelise, posted by Annierose on October 27, 2004, at 18:06:53
I could'nt post for about a week, so kept trying. At first, I'd write an actual post, but then it got too frustrating so I just wrote "trying again" -
sorry for confusion.
ShortE
This is the end of the thread.
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