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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lifeworthliving on November 1, 2004, at 21:03:39
i tried this a few weeks ago and got no response. hoping someone reading now can help me figure this out. been in therapy for two and a half years. been polite crier most of that time and laying down almost always as sitting up is too uncomfortable, my head seems impossibly heavy. most of time in therapy i was sorting/sifting and talking about csa in a disconnected sort of way. painful but enough distance to allow myself twice a week visits without falling completely apart. have always loved my therapist tremendously but haven't always let on just how difficult it is for me... the longing for her feels incredibly juvenile and is so hard to deal with. and then to come home and have to mother my own would make it so much more painful. i can't tell you how many nights i went to bed and hoped i wouldn't wake up in the morning. it seemed like none of the childhood issues mattered like the longing i had for my therapist.the only reason i went to therapy was to be with her... and the suffering i had to endure was payment, i guess. she always told me that if i just kept showing up it (therapy)would work even though i didn't always know or believe i was going for the right reasons. starting around visit number 65 things start happening that scare the doo doo out of me (left bad marriage, got a divorce, excelled in college, more confident, etc) but my life is improving dramatically. she had always encouraged me to 'really feel" but i'm never quite sure what she meant. break down and really sob? i never thought i would or could do that i her office and i figured it didn't mattered (if she ever saw that because therapy seemed to be working)and i figured therapy was coming to an end. but she never mentions that we are close to ending (as she promised she would when the time came). so a few weeks ago she encourages me to remain upright when i want to lay down really bad. a few minutes later i swear i felt possessed by something so powerful that i thought i had to be pscyhotic or similar. i really felt it and started to yell for her to help me and someother things about it hurting me. i had the sensation of hands on my chest, etc. i was able to watch but was also experiencing something very real. it really scared me and i was quite afterward for a very long time. she finally said "you did it" but never told me what it was. anybody here have any idea? she really doesn't like to label anything and sometimes that drives me nuts. she did call it a breakthrough later. what does she mean? it didn't scare her at all. i just know that i get into her office the last few weeks and my breathing gets real funny and since i can't lay down anymore to control it it sems to take over and i live in these memories for a while. she asks me to keep reporting to her, what i see etc. i've been less afraid the last two weeks but i do shake before i get into her office. i used to be able to show 5 minutes early but i can't do that anymore. i walk laps around the building until the absolute last minute because i don't want to panic. i can control it up to a certain point but sitting there and letting it grow while i wait for her isn't helpful. does anybody know what this is? they are painful times but have a very constructive feel. i've been leaving feeling mostly ok. any help here?
Posted by mandinka on November 2, 2004, at 3:16:48
In reply to what is this?, posted by lifeworthliving on November 1, 2004, at 21:03:39
I DID reply to your post. I really advise you to read Janov's book on primal therapy (deep feeling, regressive therapy is another way it is called) and check out this page, because it describes a similar situation to your's - I'm referring specifically to the section titled "The Discovery Of Primal Pain":
http://www.primaltherapy.com/FRAMESbasic/aptFrame.htm
Looks to me like you had a primal - release of repressed, primal (early) pain.
You say that you breathe funny. Controlled breathing is a way of achieving non-ordinary states of consciousness - regression falls into this category. Try reading Stanislav Grof's writing on holotropic breathwork. Does your T know anything about regressive therapy? Sounds like she might but she's afraid to name it - this stuff is not mainstream and is pretty unpopular with the psychotherapeutical establishment.
Another good webpage with tons of articles on regressive therapy that might interest you:
I wish I could share with you my own "primal" story but I have not yet had a primal. I'm working on it though. :)
Posted by vwoolf on November 2, 2004, at 4:54:36
In reply to Re: what is this?, posted by mandinka on November 2, 2004, at 3:16:48
I've had a few incidents like this over the years that have really upset me. The first time was in a Group Dynamics workshop, where the participants were asked to hold each other. I began to find it difficlt to breathe and then to sob convulsively, without being able to explain why, my mind was completely blank, just the emotions were working. The Psychologist in charge was very upset and concerned, and tried to persuade me to go into therapy at once. A second time was in a Personal Growth workshop many years later and a similar thing happened. Last Friday night, I had another episode. I had just finished making love. I turned over and burst into tears. I cried for about an hour, with really wracking sobs and a sort of keening - the sort of uninhibited way a very small child would cry. My husband didn't know what to do. And I couldn't tell him what was wrong - I didn't know. I was simply overcome. I felt terrible all the next day, but now it has passed, except for feeling unable to breathe, as if I am holding back a scream, and tensing up at the slightest emotion in Therapy. I have been having nightmares since then, but I can't remember them. I just wake up in a cold sweat with my thoughts racing. I was also sexually abused as a child btw.
Posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 6:33:58
In reply to what is this?, posted by lifeworthliving on November 1, 2004, at 21:03:39
Talk to your therapist about this. Keep asking questions until you understand (or at least until you are confident that *she* understands and that she will keep you safe).
Really feeling emotions for the first time is absolutely terrifying. If it were me, I would need to have complete confidence that my therapist was "in control" (since clearly, I would be out of control at that point).
It sounds to me like you are making productive steps - but lots of times those productive steps don't feel very good for a while.
Posted by antigua on November 2, 2004, at 8:06:12
In reply to what is this?, posted by lifeworthliving on November 1, 2004, at 21:03:39
This happened to me for the first time last week in therapy. I too was sexually abused as a child.
My T and I were wrangling over this new trust issue that has come up (even after 13 years or so) just recently when I started to shake uncontrollably and could not catch my breath. It was pure feeling, no memories or anything, just pure feelings. She let me go w/it for awhile but then brought me back. It was really hard for me to come back and it took a long time.I was a wreck for days and went to see her twice in a day, when the feelings came up again. If this was releasing primal pain, I'm all for it. I just didn't understand what it was, but I will discuss it with her tomorrow when I see her. For me, I feel completely hollow now; I have no center, as if I've been completely deconstructed. I also feel like my 9-yr old self is now in charge, which is scary, but there must be a reason.
The timing of your post was perfect. I can't tell you how grateful I am for your perspective.
antigua
Posted by Aphrodite on November 2, 2004, at 8:31:29
In reply to what is this?, posted by lifeworthliving on November 1, 2004, at 21:03:39
I have not had a similar experience, but I was very moved by your vivid account of what happened. If I were in your shoes, I would be insistent that my T *make* me understand what happened and why and ways to deal with the surprise of it all. It shouldn't be a mystery. She needs to tell you what it is and how she will handle it. Knowledge is power.
Posted by lifeworthliving on November 2, 2004, at 12:10:35
In reply to Re: what is this?, posted by mandinka on November 2, 2004, at 3:16:48
mandinka, i didn't mean to minimize your contribution last time i posted -- sorry. i do remember that you posted the link and i did look at it. i was hoping to "talk" to someone here that had experienced something similar. i went to the other link you posted today and have been lost in the website for the better part of an hour... thanks!i'm glad to know i'm not the only one tha has experienced something like this.i'm not convinced this was a primal thing but what do i know? i'm going to ask my t about it again tomorrow. i want an exact name for my experience! (so i can read and obsess?)
also, the last few sessions have gone long about 90 to 100 minutes. there is no way i could do this in 50 minutes. it takes awhile to "freak out" and then remember what i hadn't felt yet. very strange experience... kind of surreal and otherworldly... and intense! can't forget intense. they are wonderful but in the most miserable way possible. off to read more. thanks you guys for posting! i love you. :)
Posted by littleone on November 2, 2004, at 14:38:01
In reply to what is this?, posted by lifeworthliving on November 1, 2004, at 21:03:39
> i really felt it and started to yell for her to help me and someother things about it hurting me. i had the sensation of hands on my chest, etc. i was able to watch but was also experiencing something very real.
I've never experienced this or anything like it, so my comments probably aren't worth jacks**t. But reading your comment above really sounds like you were re-experiencing the csa - like a flashback I guess, but without the actual memory. "Help me. It hurts." Hands holding you down.
I've read somewhere that the body remembers things that happened to it, so perhaps in order to heal, both the body and the mind need to tell their story. It sounds like your mind has been doing most of the talking so far.
> i've been less afraid the last two weeks but i do shake before i get into her office. i used to be able to show 5 minutes early but i can't do that anymore. i walk laps around the building until the absolute last minute because i don't want to panic.
I think that this part is simply your resistence kicking in. I always find my resistence to be such a funny thing. I usually arrive at my T's office about an hour before I go in (I'm just pathologically punctual :) ), but when we are in a particularly unpleasant phase, I really am flat out getting there on time. And each time I'm running late, there is an excellent reason usually caused by an outside force, so it's easy to say "Oh, that's not resistence, I just got held up by x". But it never happens outside of those yucky phases. The mind can be very sneaky indeed!
Re the panicing, that is only natural. I think a lot of people who have been previously abused use control as one of their main defenses. I know I do. Control my feelings. Control my actions. Control what I present to the outside world. It can be terrifying to let up that control. It's been in place for so long and is enforced so strongly, that I feel like I have no defenses at all without it. Very scary indeed.
Posted by mandinka on November 2, 2004, at 18:11:06
In reply to Re: what is this?, posted by lifeworthliving on November 2, 2004, at 12:10:35
Usually emotional release takes anywhere between 90 min to even three hours - so the length of your session makes perfect sense. Sometimes primals are just about releasing emotions without any specific memories accompanying them. At other times, a person is flooded with new memories along with the emotions. While the person undergoes a primal there is always a part of him or her that is the "observing bystander" that can switch off the process if it is too much but usually if stuff like this comes up it means that you are ripe for it. There are ways of controlling a primal, so it doesn't catch you at the wrong moment.
After the primal it is important to integrate the insights gained by accessing the new memories and feelings. Insight is a very important step and shouldn't be ommited.
There can be incomplete primals. If you feel no relief after such emotional flooding then either your primal was incomplete - there is still more to come or you were just abreacting (people who never really primalled often confuse primals with abreaction). A real primal gives you enormous relief and a sense that you gained access to the truth about your past, yourself and often also the perpetrators of the abuse.
During primals you can relive the same experience time after time from a different perspective, integrating different components of the same incident.
Regressive therapies will take you right back to conception. People who live in constant fear could find out for example that their mother wanted to abort them or there were difficulties at the implantation stage of pregnancy, which threatened the survival of the ovum. I think I've read somewhere that BPDs are often survivors of abortion attempts.
This all might sound pretty fantastic but I know people who relived those things and they are hardly kooks.
Regressive therapies are possibly the most powerful form of psychotherapy there is out there but it is very dangerous in incompetent hands. A therapist who has never undergone regressive therapy themself for at least several years should never practice it. My T2 who trains therapists says that she turns down therapists with PhDs if they haven't undergone regressive therapy.
Posted by Daisym on November 2, 2004, at 19:41:11
In reply to what is this?, posted by lifeworthliving on November 1, 2004, at 21:03:39
Sometimes as memories begin to surface there are complete body responses. I can feel things being held in my body, and remember what it felt like to be abused. Often I don't realize that I'm remembering with my body because I'm talking and "seeing" it with my brain. My therapist will point out what I'm doing -- wiggling, clutching the pillow(s) or hugging myself.
I have a powerful emotional response when my therapist talks to the younger me. Her emotions take over, boil out and are so intense it is scary. Perhaps you are getting in touch with a frozen age state?
I hope you find relief soon.
Daisy
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