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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by toojane on January 30, 2007, at 16:07:34
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2007, at 13:02:26
> although it's strange that after an attempt (before the program) no-one used the councelling services.
I don't think it is strange at all. I think the way psychiatric professionals treat you after a suicide attempt is criminal. Try to do those kinds of things to a "sane" person and they'd be jailed so fast their heads would spin.
The assumption that if you don't want to have anything to do with them, it MUST be because you are power tripping in some kind of self-important power struggle is laughable.
Notice how there is always something wrong with the suicidal person and never anything wrong with the 'service' being offered. If you are selling cookies and I don't want to buy them, generally it's because your cookies suck. So what this guy did was force people to eat his cookies, under threat of expulsion. Doesn't mean his cookies are good. It just means he figured out a way to make people choke them down. The ones who want to stay in university swallow his cookies. The ones who refuse to eat them get thrown out.
Posted by cubic_me on January 31, 2007, at 4:13:05
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » cubic_me, posted by toojane on January 30, 2007, at 16:07:34
> > although it's strange that after an attempt (before the program) no-one used the councelling services.
>
> I don't think it is strange at all. I think the way psychiatric professionals treat you after a suicide attempt is criminal. Try to do those kinds of things to a "sane" person and they'd be jailed so fast their heads would spin.But surely people wouldn't know that about the councelling service if they didn't try it in the first place? I know two people at my university who have used the councelling services after a suicide attempt, it wasn't great, but they tried it.
>
> The assumption that if you don't want to have anything to do with them, it MUST be because you are power tripping in some kind of self-important power struggle is laughable.I wasn't assuming that at all, ofcourse, the councelling service may have the reputation from hell. I just found it interesting that no-one went, I don't know the reason why (there could be 100 different reasons)
>
> Notice how there is always something wrong with the suicidal person and never anything wrong with the 'service' being offered. If you are selling cookies and I don't want to buy them, generally it's because your cookies suck. So what this guy did was force people to eat his cookies, under threat of expulsion. Doesn't mean his cookies are good. It just means he figured out a way to make people choke them down. The ones who want to stay in university swallow his cookies. The ones who refuse to eat them get thrown out.
>
>I understand this totally, but these people hadn't tried (or even seen) the cookies before deciding not to buy them. Although, like I said, perhaps the cookies had a bad reputation.
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 7:47:00
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » cubic_me, posted by toojane on January 30, 2007, at 16:07:34
> > although it's strange that after an attempt (before the program) no-one used the councelling services.
>
> I don't think it is strange at all. I think the way psychiatric professionals treat you after a suicide attempt is criminal. Try to do those kinds of things to a "sane" person and they'd be jailed so fast their heads would spin.
>
> The assumption that if you don't want to have anything to do with them, it MUST be because you are power tripping in some kind of self-important power struggle is laughable.
>
> Notice how there is always something wrong with the suicidal person and never anything wrong with the 'service' being offered. If you are selling cookies and I don't want to buy them, generally it's because your cookies suck. So what this guy did was force people to eat his cookies, under threat of expulsion. Doesn't mean his cookies are good. It just means he figured out a way to make people choke them down. The ones who want to stay in university swallow his cookies. The ones who refuse to eat them get thrown out.
>
>I'm sorry you feel this way - that's not the feeling I took away from the article.
"I think the way psychiatric professionals treat you after a suicide attempt is criminal. Try to do those kinds of things to a "sane" person and they'd be jailed so fast their heads would spin."
This statement you made is a big assumption and generalization.
I posted the article because it spoke of community, accountability and how to reduce the completion of suicide. It was an alternative view of a difficult subject.
"The assumption that if you don't want to have anything to do with them, it MUST be because you are power tripping in some kind of self-important power struggle is laughable."I don't think this statement is fair either. I find nothing funny about suicide and the attending issues.
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 7:47:31
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » cubic_me, posted by toojane on January 30, 2007, at 16:07:34
Posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 8:02:48
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » toojane, posted by cubic_me on January 31, 2007, at 4:13:05
> But surely people wouldn't know that about the councelling service if they didn't try it in the first place?
Maybe not THAT counselling service but if they survived a serious suicide attempt, they would have almost surely have had contact with some kind of psychiatric service, by force if they were committed. What I was trying to say was that experience can be aversive.
> I wasn't assuming that at all, ofcourse, the councelling service may have the reputation from hell.
OH NO. I did not mean that YOU were assuming suicidal people were in a power struggle. That was the premise of the doctor in the article.
I was troubled by the attitude of the doctor in the article. Not by you at all
Posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 8:27:16
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 7:47:00
> "I think the way psychiatric professionals treat you after a suicide attempt is criminal. Try to do those kinds of things to a "sane" person and they'd be jailed so fast their heads would spin."
>
> This statement you made is a big assumption and generalization.
No. This statement I made is from personal experience and absolutely true. I did not make a "cry for help" I tried to kill myself because I wanted to die and unfortunately I failed and was committed. The things that happened to me while I was committed against my will on a psych ward were criminal. The fact that I would avoid such "help" at all costs is not because I am in a "power struggle" with anyone.What I was trying to convey is that I think the problem lies within the system, not in accessing it.
I used a metaphor of cookies to say that instead of their looking at their own recipe and making changes to make them more edible, they sit and say we have these delicious cookies and no one is eating them. Their solution is to force people to consume them.
> I posted the article because it spoke of community, accountability and how to reduce the completion of suicide. It was an alternative view of a difficult subject.I found the article offensive. Especially the part about the "challenge to the student's privilege to heap violence upon himself." If the writer/researcher wants to talk about community responsibility, I want to know where the community was when many of these suicidal people were being horribly abused to the extent that they are traumatized to the point where they want to die. The dynamics of self-abuse are complicated and that sentence is rife with judgement and ignorance.
> "The assumption that if you don't want to have anything to do with them, it MUST be because you are power tripping in some kind of self-important power struggle is laughable."
>
> I don't think this statement is fair either. I find nothing funny about suicide and the attending issues.I agree. There is nothing funny about suicide. But I found myself laughing sadly at the assumptions being made in the article.
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 8:37:29
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 8:27:16
"If the writer/researcher wants to talk about community responsibility, I want to know where the community was when many of these suicidal people were being horribly abused to the extent that they are traumatized to the point where they want to die. The dynamics of self-abuse are complicated and that sentence is rife with judgement and ignorance."
I don't think the article was discussing anyone one person so I don't personalize it.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with pdoc's etc. but I think it's a stretch to assume there was no community for the suicidal students in the article.
Posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 9:00:17
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » toojane, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 8:37:29
> I'm sorry you had a bad experience with pdoc's etc. but I think it's a stretch to assume there was no community for the suicidal students in the article.Hmmm. It is hard having a conversation through posts, especially about "hot" topics. I'm somehow not expressing my points well. I was not trying to say that there was "no community for the students."
I was troubled by the point being made in the article that students were "heaping violence" on themselves while they had a duty to their community not to. Intellectually, I understand that stance but emotionally it angered me.
I see it as holding the students accountable to be non-violent to themselves while there is no attendant accountability within the larger community (not just the educational one) to not do violence to them. So, you can be horribly abused and nothing is done by your community to help you but when you are suffering from the aftereffects of that abuse and your behaviour is a consequence of that abuse, it is you who are condemned for not meeting your community responsibilities of non-violence.
I don't know if that is clearer or not. Obviously, suicide is a very emotional topic. I have not meant to offend anyone, just to express my point of view.
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 9:13:47
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 9:00:17
No offense taken - but I think that you have said you felt abused after your experience - I'm not sure that can be translated into the students experience.
"I see it as holding the students accountable to be non-violent to themselves while there is no attendant accountability within the larger community (not just the educational one) to not do violence to them."
My take on it - is students & a community can feel "abused"/victimized by suicide attempts/self-harm - there is a PTSD reaction to those that have experienced this -(see the thread on social as an example) - there can also be an equal reaction by those who attempt suicide/self-harm.
But i do agree - it's complicated between abuser and abused - & it's not clear who is who (or both at the same time?) at any given moment.
"it is you who are condemned for not meeting your community responsibilities of non-violence."
I don't see it as condemning - I see there has to be accountability - how does that happen within a larger community?
We are all responsible for ourselves & our behaviors.
But thanks for clarifying. I'm sorry the article upset you.
Posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 9:56:09
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 9:13:47
> No offense taken - but I think that you have said you felt abused after your experience - I'm not sure that can be translated into the students experience.
We don't know the student's experience. Which is what I'm trying to point out. The doctor concludes they don't come for counselling because they are in a power struggle. I think it is just as possible that they find the counselling being offered distasteful or condescending or abusive or fill-in-the-blank and that is why they do not go. There are huge assumptions being made in the article about the student's motivations for not going to the school's counselling service. None of them look at the quality of the service being offered, only the quantity. I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere in the article that they did an indepth study of the student's reasons and opinions.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 31, 2007, at 11:16:12
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 9:56:09
Hello
Well I just read the article and I thought I'd comment. I thought it was quite accurate really, well certainly regarding me and my suicidal feelings.
For me, I've often said 'I'm going to kill myself' and its pretty much like he says - its about giving back the power of your life to you, because by saying it you're giving yourself control because you can always 'escape' if things get worse or whatever. It means you can be in the reality because you have the option of escape.
I know it gives me courage and control when I say it although I'd never act on it. Anyway.
Posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 11:53:46
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 31, 2007, at 11:16:12
Hi Meri-Tulli
> thought it was quite accurate really, well certainly regarding me and my suicidal feelings.For me, I've often said 'I'm going to kill myself' and its pretty much like he says - its about giving back the power of your life to you, because by saying it you're giving yourself control because you can always 'escape' if things get worse or whatever.
I think that is a very common view of suicide. It is also a very personal and private one, a way of negotiating your relationship with what can at times be an intolerable life.But concerning the article though, how does that translate for you in your relationship with any psych professionals? Should you/have you been/are you currently forced into counselling because of your suicidal feelings?
When you say you are going to kill yourself, is that only to yourself or are you saying it to others? Do you think that saying it out loud changes its purpose/meaning?
> I know it gives me courage and control when I say it although I'd never act on it. Anyway.So you never have made an attempt? You struggle with ideation though or don't view it as a struggle because it gives you "courage and control"?
Posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 14:18:08
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 9:13:47
> We are all responsible for ourselves & our behaviors.If only that were true. In a perfect world.
> But thanks for clarifying. I'm sorry the article upset you.I've been thinking about why it upset me so much. I've figured out it is the use of coercion and the way the use of coercion is justified by statistics that purport to measure something I don't believe they are measuring (Wishingstar's post points out many of the problems with the study).
I think it is dangerous to confer power to one group over another. You do that believing/hoping the more powerful group is benevolent and that absolutely is not necessarily true. In this situation, the students do not have the option to refuse "help" whether they experience it as helpful or not. You can read this board to easily find a very small sampling of some abusive therapeutic relationships. Now imagine the posters were forced to participate in them under threat of expulsion.
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 19:19:38
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 14:18:08
I understand your point - but there are rules of conduct in every community so the participants feel safe and can trust the environment. The rules vary from community to community but I do not think *keeping oneself safe* is a bad rule.
I personally would want to be part of a community where everyone had accountability for their actions.
I would not want to be part of a community where it's OK to commit suicide because you don't want to get help.
I'm not sure if this is what you said, but the threat of expulsion for not getting help would seem fair.
Posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 19:55:51
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » toojane, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 19:19:38
> The rules vary from community to community but I do not think *keeping oneself safe* is a bad rule.
I think if a community had a rule, and enforced it, that members could not harm one another then the need for a "keeping oneself safe" rule would be almost obsolete. I think many/most self-harming behaviours are the products of abuse.
> I personally would want to be part of a community where everyone had accountability for their actions.I would too. Where, in reality, does such an ideal community exist?
> I would not want to be part of a community where it's OK to commit suicide because you don't want to get help.Hmmm. I think it is probably rare (although I have no way of being certain) for people to commit suicide completely out of the blue. I think they probably do seek help first, in some form or other. Help does not always exist. If you've read this board for very long, you can easily see how people continue to suffer, even when they have accessed therapy. Is it okay to commit suicide if you want help but have realized none exists?
Help is also a very relative term. Who determines what is helpful? The history of psychiatry is filled with "helpful" treatments forced on people against their will (insulin comas, wet packs, lobotomies, electric shocks).
> I'm not sure if this is what you said, but the threat of expulsion for not getting help would seem fair.I believe schools threaten expulsion because they are afraid of being sued by distraught parents, not because they are intent on creating responsible communities. These policies were implemented when the lawsuits started. I'm not sure "fair" is a real consideration.
Posted by one woman cine on February 1, 2007, at 7:58:57
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 19:55:51
>>"I think if a community had a rule, and enforced it, that members could not harm one another then the need for a "keeping oneself safe" rule would be almost obsolete. I think many/most self-harming behaviours are the products of abuse."
So you are saying the college students are coomitting suicide because of being abused by other college students?
If your answer is yes, I disagree.
>>"Help is also a very relative term. Who determines what is helpful? The history of psychiatry is filled with "helpful" treatments forced on people against their will (insulin comas, wet packs, lobotomies, electric shocks)."
I'm not talking about past history - I'm talking about now. These past abuses by psychiatry are not relevant to reasons why one should not seek help today.
>>"I believe schools threaten expulsion because they are afraid of being sued by distraught parents, not because they are intent on creating responsible communities. These policies were implemented when the lawsuits started. I'm not sure "fair" is a real consideration."
I disagree - I believe people in this academic communities (or any community) grieve and have negative reactions that scar internally after a suicide.
Posted by toojane on February 1, 2007, at 9:06:37
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by one woman cine on February 1, 2007, at 7:58:57
Hi One Woman Cine,
I think we could have a very interesting and animated discussion on this topic in person. I find this form of debate, with short posts back and forth, frustrating. This board is probably better used to provide support and information than for more philosophical discussions.
Thank you for all of your responses. I have found it interesting talking with you but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm curious, though. I have posted that I have PTSD, struggle with suicidal ideation and have been committed. What is your background? Have you ever spent time on a psychiatric ward? I ask because my point-of-view is informed by my experience of having treatment forced on me. I wonder what experiences colour your own opinions.
> I'm not talking about past history - I'm talking about now. These past abuses by psychiatry are not relevant to reasons why one should not seek help today.I am talking about now, too. There most definitely are current abuses in psychiatry. I've experienced them. Many, many others have as well. There have been volumes written about people being abused by their psychiatric caregivers. You only need to look in any library or bookstore shelf to find them. Unfortunately, these abuses are not ancient history.
Posted by one woman cine on February 1, 2007, at 9:25:55
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by toojane on February 1, 2007, at 9:06:37
I didn't post it for debate - I posted it for education and discussion - like the FAQ on this site states.
But we will have to agree to disagree - you're right - sorry if it upset you.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 1, 2007, at 15:05:00
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » Meri-Tuuli, posted by toojane on January 31, 2007, at 11:53:46
Hello! I've never met you before but I'll answer your questions...
> But concerning the article though, how does that translate for you in your relationship with any psych professionals?
Hmm, it makes no difference really. You mean after I've read the article?
Should you/have you been/are you currently forced into counselling because of your suicidal feelings?
Nope, never.
> When you say you are going to kill yourself, is that only to yourself or are you saying it to others? Do you think that saying it out loud changes its purpose/meaning?
I only ever say it to myself. Once I told a CPN, way back, but thats about it. I think I might have mentioned it a few times in the past to other psych professionals, but um, its never been taken seriously, simply because I always explain that I can't do it, I'm too chicken. But you still have these feelings and it still helps to say 'I'm going to kill myself'. Its more of an abstract concept than anything else really.
> So you never have made an attempt? You struggle with ideation though or don't view it as a struggle because it gives you "courage and control"?
I've never made an attempt but I did SI as a sort of alternative. And I ran away once which (in my mind) was an alternative.
Um, I don't struggle with it at all. I just think and feel it sometimes and it helps me deal with very negative feelings that engulf me at times. I do imagine doing it, but I just think how nice it'd be, but its like you'd imagine how nice it would be to say, (insert something unobtainable) eg live in a mansion or something. I kinda view it almost as something positive in fact.The thing is, I'm also pretty much a hypochrondriac, so you get this incrediable weird feeling of wanting to die and to kill yourself, but at the same time having panic attacks because you've convinced yourself you've got cancer or something. I mean the illogcially is enough to make my brain melt.
Do I make any sense at all? :o)
Posted by toojane on February 1, 2007, at 15:30:12
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » toojane, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 1, 2007, at 15:05:00
> Hello! I've never met you before but I'll answer your questions...
Hello back! Thank you so much for answering. I find myself really wanting to discuss these kinds of issues with people but they are not the stuff of typical conversations in real life.
> > But concerning the article though, how does that translate for you in your relationship with any psych professionals?
> Hmm, it makes no difference really. You mean after I've read the article?
> Should you/have you been/are you currently forced into counselling because of your suicidal feelings?
> Nope, never.
I'm sorry. I phrased the questions awkwardly. I was curious if you felt that it was okay for you to be forced into treatment for your suicidal feelings? Is suicide your decision or do others have the right to force you to live? If they do have the right, is there anything you think they should not be allowed to do to keep you alive or is anything and everything okay?
> Um, I don't struggle with it at all. I just think and feel it sometimes and it helps me deal with very negative feelings that engulf me at times. I do imagine doing it, but I just think how nice it'd be, but its like you'd imagine how nice it would be to say, (insert something unobtainable) eg live in a mansion or something. I kinda view it almost as something positive in fact.That is a very interesting relationship to have with your ideation.
> The thing is, I'm also pretty much a hypochrondriac, so you get this incrediable weird feeling of wanting to die and to kill yourself, but at the same time having panic attacks because you've convinced yourself you've got cancer or something. I mean the illogcially is enough to make my brain melt.Is that maybe because you think you are "cursing" yourself? You think by saying you want to die you might give yourself cancer to make it come true?
> Do I make any sense at all? :o)Makes perfect sense to me.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2007, at 16:34:55
In reply to 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by one woman cine on January 29, 2007, at 13:01:30
I've had mental health professionals who seemed to have similar theories about client motivations. *I* had the freedom to choose those who had theories more like Linehan's, if they had general theories at all. If I really had my preference, a clinician would listen to an individual client and keep their general theories in mind only as potential blind spots.
I would hope that universities would accept that a student is in treatment without forcing them into *their* treatment. I think I'd raise a fuss if a child of mine chose to go to a university who insisted that university mental health services be utilized.
Of course, university mental health services cause me concerns on a few levels. Mainly I've seen that people develop good therapeutic relationships and then seen them artificially severed at graduation. That would concern me a lot too.
Therapist's aren't washing machines. You just can't turn yours in with your dorm room when you happen to graduate and redecorate once you move off campus.
Posted by one woman cine on February 2, 2007, at 7:44:06
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2007, at 16:34:55
Dinah, I agree
"I would hope that universities would accept that a student is in treatment without forcing them into *their* treatment. I think I'd raise a fuss if a child of mine chose to go to a university who insisted that university mental health services be utilized."
The most important thing though, is that student be receiving some kind of help.
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2007, at 10:26:51
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' -, posted by one woman cine on February 2, 2007, at 7:44:06
Choice is the key, to me. I know not everyone has the funds to have a choice, and that makes me very sad.
That does lead to a question about parents, though. Are parents of college aged kids informed if their son or daughter makes a suicidal gesture?
I know that college students are entitled to privacy, and that many put themselves through school. But many have a very hard time with the transition, and parents ought to be an important resource.
Posted by one woman cine on February 2, 2007, at 10:51:17
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2007, at 10:26:51
"Are parents of college aged kids informed if their son or daughter makes a suicidal gesture?"
If they are minors, yes - it's mandated law.
& sadly, everyone should have access to excellent mental health resources & health care in general.
But that's a whole another ball of wax...
Posted by cubic_me on February 2, 2007, at 11:31:29
In reply to Re: 'Not always a cry for help' - » one woman cine, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2007, at 10:26:51
>
> That does lead to a question about parents, though. Are parents of college aged kids informed if their son or daughter makes a suicidal gesture?
>
> I know that college students are entitled to privacy, and that many put themselves through school. But many have a very hard time with the transition, and parents ought to be an important resource.
What if the parents are part of the cause of the problem? I didn't tell anyone how I was feeling for 7 years (until I got to university), because I knew that until I was no longer a minor my parents would most likely be informed and things would become worse for me.Here in the UK we have something called Gillick competence, based on caselaw that dictates if a minor is competent to make a decision about their healthcare, they can make it without their parents being informed. In this context, competence has a specific definition.
Is there anything like that in the US?
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