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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by DAisym on June 30, 2007, at 15:30:11
In reply to Re: Struggling with the concept of Need » DAisym, posted by Honore on June 30, 2007, at 9:35:38
Funny, you are the second person this week to suggest I write a book. Can you imagine? It would be way too long and wordy. "he said, then I said and then he said..." :)
I've decided to feel better today. My therapist would laugh at that statement, but I think it is true. This free floating anxiety isn't doing me any good and there is work to do and a house to clean. And the sun is out. So I'm going to kick my own butt in gear and just get things done. Maybe that is really what I "need" to do...
I do want to say, in thinking about it, I think the disconnect from my therapist may be linked to the group therapist - you used the right word - disappointment. I know that I need to protect myself better and I also know that working out some of my issues with women is a good thing. I tend to push myself really hard when I'm with other women and hide the vulnerable parts. I think this happened in group. Instead of saying, "I can't do this, even if it was my idea" I made myself say things. And I wanted the group therapist to step in and stop me and she didn't. So I played out, again, the scenario with my mom...silently wishing to be saved, her not doing it...so realizing again that *I* have to save myself.
And you know, that isn't really such a bad thing. Because ultimately, the goal is to leave therapy and take care of myself around all these feelings. So this is good practice. I think I can say, "I have needs and I can meet these needs myself." Which is a big change from "I must never have needs."
...or something like that.
Posted by muffled on June 30, 2007, at 20:06:41
In reply to Re: Struggling with the concept of Need » Honore, posted by DAisym on June 30, 2007, at 15:30:11
>I think I can say, "I have needs and I can meet these needs myself." Which is a big change from "I must never have needs."
...or something like that.
*Nicely said...and amazing to try and accomplish.
WOW. I think I still sorta stuck in 'I must never have needs', or even, I have no needs,or, needs are for wimps, or, needs? what are they?, or I don't deserve to have them met, or I afraid....
Sigh.
Keep up the good work Daisy :-)
M
Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
In reply to WOW!!!! :-), posted by muffled on June 30, 2007, at 20:06:41
My T. seems unusually interested in this right now. I mean in sorta a pushy way for him, 'cause he's completely non-directive and I pretty much lead the way unless I insist, "talk! ask me something...say something now!" Then he will.
But lately, every chance he can he slips in, "so what do you want?" or "you have such a hard time asking for what you need." [I DO NOT!] or, "tell me what you want right now." or "what do you need to make this better?"
I kinda know why and sure, it fits the stage we're at in therapy, but sheesh...I sometimes want to whip all the pillows at him!!
I feel like yelling that I don't really know the difference half the time, AND he really doesn't want to know what I need involving him,'cause it comes out all wrong AND that what I want I can never have so WHO CARES....and all sorts of angry stuff! well, truth be told, I've said a lot of this stuff.....but I so want to YELL it at him!
I'd say 'lol' but somehow, it's not so very funny.
Freakin' therapy work is hard.
Posted by muffled on July 5, 2007, at 23:05:30
In reply to Needs, wants.....bleck » muffled, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
I'm with ya all the way (((((10der))))
Sigh, it IS hard :-(
Nice rant by the way ;-)
It felt good to me too.
This stuff still confuses me...
Hope your doing ok.
M
Posted by JoniS on July 6, 2007, at 8:16:23
In reply to Needs, wants.....bleck » muffled, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
10derheart
Your post was so great! Such a perfect portrayal of what goes on in our (or at least MY) frustrated mind as we work in T. You made me laugh! although I know it is HARD.
Tell him your needs even though he cant meet [ALL of] them! ;)
Good Luck!
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2007, at 16:26:22
In reply to Needs, wants.....bleck » muffled, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
That sounds like a pretty good thing to tell him.
I know it sounds so silly, but when I can't think of what I want, or can't think of what to say, or a way to say it, that's what I say.
Sometimes just blurting what's really in your head leads to blurting things you didn't even realize were in your head. :/
In some ways, it is so very hard. But in other ways it is such a very valuable thing to learn.
My family was just talking about how scary it was to talk about what you want, for fear of being told "no", and how when you are told "no" it can make you feel bad about asking or even wanting.
But in therapy it isn't bad to ask or want. Well, it's not in real life either as long as you're willing to take a "no" but it's so much clearer that it's ok in therapy.
Both learning to ask and learning to say no are excellent things.
So what's in your head when he asks, that's what you should tell him.
Yes, it is a new step in therapy. A good one, with good results, though. At least with a good therapist.
Posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2007, at 16:26:22
Yes but...
I think I feel the same way sometimes as Tender. I WANT/NEED what I've found in therapy - someone who gets me, someone who cares that I have nightmares and someone who can tolerate my sadness. I think something inside me has been shaken awake and now it won't go back to sleep. This thing longs to feel cared for and safe and like I matter. My therapist has provided these things but now the limitations are so painful. I want it in IRL! So I want him - but know I can't have him - and know that I'd never want to wreck his life anyway, career, family, etc. -- but still -- I want him. I tell myself I want someone like him, but I have no faith that I'll ever meet anyone like him who would care about me.
This isn't a sexual fantasy at all. This is a warm partner fantasy in which I'm not alone anymore.
Therapy is so painful right now because of these feelings.
I'm with Tender, I want to yell at him.
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 9:37:31
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
I'm sure you've shared those thoughts with him. And I'm sure that he responded warmly, although the answer may have been "no". "No" still hurts, but you aren't wrong for wishing or wanting or being angry with him.
I guess I'm not in a position to fully understand. I don't get what I get with my therapist with my husband. My husband's gifts run in other directions. But I do have him to hold me and snuggle and I appreciate him and our marriage.
While I know that I would end up hating my therapist (and vice versa) if I were married to him.
So maybe I'm lucky in that whatever I want from him, I want within the confines of the therapy office, or other standard therapeutic methods of contact.
Mind you, the answer is "no" to a lot of what I want from him too. I think I have a good understanding of the ways that he does care for me, and the ways I wish he would care more for me. And sometimes it hurts a lot that I care for him so much more than he cares for me. Or when he moves to a different chair because I'm too close. Or when he casually comments about assessing his future in terms of what's best for his family, when I want to scream I'm family too. He's my therapist/mommy, so surely I must be his client/little girl. Yet I'm not.
He knows all that too. And still the answer is no. It's a warm no, and a caring no, and an occasionally exasperated or even angry no (if he's feeling a bit guilty about the no). And generally we have an unspoken agreement not to trod on those tender spots. But we came to that after we fully fully explored everything, and I came to a certain peace about it.
So perhaps my input isn't overly helpful since my wants aren't really the same.
Posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 10:14:41
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
Daisy... this reminded me of something my therapist said last session. He said, "Your loving for me, and I'm not trying to diminish it at all, because it is real, is about what you need. You need someone who's going to be constant and consistent. I think I kind of embody this sense of 'everything's going to be ok' for you. And that's what you need. Because I'm a nice person, it's easy to put that on me."
It was interesting. So I get what you're saying about needing what your therapist provides.
sunnydays
Posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:01:16
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » DAisym, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 9:37:31
You are always helpful, and gentle...
I think I'm at this place again for many converging reasons - my dad came to visit, I went on a trip with my mom, I filed divorce papers and I read a new book specifically about attachment in psychotherapy. The book especially took me to that place of knowing that I'm in really good hands and that the therapy we are doing is the exact right therapy for me. My therapist has been so THERE for me, as always, but even more so...the voice mail he left me when I went away was so completely perfect - he even mentioned shoe shopping. It just makes the lack of these others particularly evident. So - I'm hurting.
Intellectually I know I don't know him well enough to make the determination of a good "warm partner" fit. What if he is a slob? Or doesn't eat baked goods? I struggle with all these feelings of right and wrong and appropriate. But mostly I just know what is missing from my life and feeling close to him makes me even more lonely.
When we talk about it, he tells me I'm learning to allow myself to need in a safe way - he won't take advantage of the need nor will he hurt me (intentionally anyway). And the repair and slow growth of my core self will eventually make it so I'm "enough" all on my own. Feels like a very long way away.
I've actually drifted this weekend over to wondering if I'm just destined to be alone, that I'm not meant to have an intimate partner. I'll have family and friends and colleagues and perhaps that is enough. I just wish I didn't know how good it feels when someone says the exact right thing at the exact right moment and for that moment you feel completely safe and cared for.
I didn't miss it when I didn't know I could ever have it. And now I don't know how to undo this. What is it they say about a little knowledge?
Posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:06:04
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » DAisym, posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 10:14:41
Your therapist is a smart guy...
I'm always impressed with how well he handles your loving feelings and makes sense of them. Do you ever wonder if the love you feel for him will translate into something good with someone else?
Awhile back I told my therapist that what I really wanted was for him to save me. "From what?" he asked. I could not verbalize exactly what I was talking about. It is this sense of wanting someone to rush in and keep you safe but it is disconcerting because there is nothing dangerous going on for me right now.
So maybe I can borrow what your therapist said. Maybe what I really want is that sense of "it will all be OK" and I'm hoping my therapist can provide that. I'll have to think about it some more.
Thanks for sharing it.
Posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 15:11:28
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:01:16
((((Daisy))))
I'm so sorry you're hurting. Try to take good care. I was wondering what book about attachment you read? I might like to look at it to!
Thanks,
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 15:15:22
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » sunnydays, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:06:04
I do wonder a LOT if anyone will ever love me, if I'll be able to trust enough to love someone else. I think it will happen, though, just because I see my friendships changing and getting deeper because of my therapy. But I wonder a lot about that, partly because I'm 21 and have never been kissed, never had a boyfriend. It's something I want so much, but I feel like I hold people at arm's length because I'm too afraid to trust them.
I think good things will come to you too. It just takes a lot of time sometimes.
sunnydays
Posted by muffled on July 16, 2007, at 17:10:32
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
> I WANT/NEED what I've found in therapy - someone who gets me, someone who cares that I have nightmares and someone who can tolerate my sadness. I think something inside me has been shaken awake and now it won't go back to sleep. This thing longs to feel cared for and safe and like I matter. My therapist has provided these things but now the limitations are so painful. I want it in IRL!
**Sigh.
I am married w/kids. But I the same...why????
Why we like this?
I won't let my T try to be there for me. She wants to be.
I dunno why I can't/won't let her be, why i hold her away?
Maybe its shame rearing its ugly head :-(
Mebbe its something thats not even possible for me.
Maybe I smart to leave going to T?
Hurts.
It all sounds SO hard.
Best wishes to all you guys.
Thanks for your honesty and good writings bout this hard hard subject.
M
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 17:31:33
In reply to Why?, posted by muffled on July 16, 2007, at 17:10:32
I think I've come to terms that I'm not going to get that elsewhere. That's why I'm in favor of forever therapy. It's a very unique relationship, and valuable on its own.
I don't know if it's realistic to expect everything in one place. A relationship superstore. Some things I get from my husband, some things from my friends, some things from my husband, and some things can only be supplied by my dogs.
I'm ok with not getting what I get from my therapist in other places, so long as I can keep getting it from him.
But I know that's frowned upon.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 16, 2007, at 17:36:23
In reply to Why?, posted by muffled on July 16, 2007, at 17:10:32
I think it's very, very hard for some of us to trust that people won't hurt us. It took me a long, long time to trust my T and as you know, I still pretty regularly have meltdowns over the relationship. It's a long, hard fought battle. But most of the time I think it's worth it. I think you do, too, and hope you will consider letting your T try to be there for you.
((((((((Muffled))))))))
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 17:39:16
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 17:31:33
hmmm... I meant to say husband once, and therapist once.
I swear this cigar is just a cigar. :)
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 16, 2007, at 18:48:32
In reply to Re: I think...., posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 17:39:16
:-) I wondered about that when I read it, but decided not to say anything... LOL
Posted by JoniS on July 16, 2007, at 21:11:07
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
.
.
.> This isn't a sexual fantasy at all. This is a warm partner fantasy in which I'm not alone anymore.
>
> Therapy is so painful right now because of these feelings.
>
> I'm with Tender, I want to yell at him.
Daisy,Your post is almost EXACTLY where I am with my T. It is very painful right now because of all the feelings I have for him - relationally, not necessarily sexually, but sometimes that too. I keep trying to tell myself that there are those things that I would not like at all about him. Like I think he must be a golf snob - one who thinks beginners like me dont belong on their course, or maybe when he gets mad at his wife he talks mean to her, or maybe he is a health food fanatic - doesnt love bread & butter & sweets like me. There are just too many things that I love about him, and that I get from him. I am really working on accepting that the healthy T relationship is the best of all worlds, but it is a struggle. I don't want to, but I compare him with my DH who betrayed me but I stayed in the marriage. I try hard to appreciate all the good things about my DH, but my T always comes up way above. In T we talk about my fantasy, and my idealized view of him, but I have a lot of reality - about what he is like, and I want to be with someone like that.
I went to T today and I told him about over the weekend I walked out of a store with my DH just as the sun was going down and made the most breathtaking view with the clouds and the color. My first thought at that moment was that I wish I was here enjoying this with T. When I told him that he was very understanding and accepting of it. He always makes me feel comfortable about talking about my feelings for him and tells me it is normal, especially after what I've been through. He is so encouraging (yet safe) the bond that I have with him. He has also told me at times that what I'm doing is one of, if not the most difficult thing a person can do in a marriage. That helps me continue.
Guess I'll stop there. I could go on and on.
Joni
Posted by DAisym on July 17, 2007, at 18:49:47
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » DAisym, posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 15:15:22
I've decided I don't trust myself anymore. I don't know how to need a little and I don't want to need too much, so I guess I'm refusing to need. Relationships IRL just don't tolerate the ambivalence I feel very well. So for now at least, I'm choosing to be alone.
But you are so young, and working so hard on yourself. I'm sure someone will see how sweet you are and stick around to make you happy. I'm glad you want that for yourself - you deserve it.
Posted by DAisym on July 17, 2007, at 18:53:11
In reply to Why?, posted by muffled on July 16, 2007, at 17:10:32
Only you can know if leaving therapy is the right move for you. Yesterday I told my therapist (again) how painful all this is and how big of a struggle I'm having with it. But I also said that I've looked and looked for the answers in books and I've written thousands of pages and the answers aren't there either. They seem to be in this room, with him, in the space we create to make sense of things. He said this is a really important conclusion. I protested, "but it means I have to stay in therapy!" His answer? "I'm good with that." *sigh*
It is really hard, isn't it?
Posted by DAisym on July 17, 2007, at 19:02:59
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 17:31:33
I think I've come to terms that I'm not going to get that elsewhere. That's why I'm in favor of forever therapy. It's a very unique relationship, and valuable on its own.
****Yes, I think I might be Ok with that too, except eventually he'll retire. Then what will I do? For sure it is a unique relationship -- but I think it isn't supposed to take up this much space in my life. He tells me it won't always, that the more we work things through, the less intense it will feel. Right now therapy feels like a life line. And I hate feeling this dependent.
I don't know if it's realistic to expect everything in one place. A relationship superstore. Some things I get from my husband, some things from my friends, some things from my husband, and some things can only be supplied by my dogs.
******Agreed. But I barely know how to get anything from anyone - I'm pretty used to giving. I think my children are teaching me to be optimistic again - I used to be the world's biggest Pollyanna...and my friends remind me to laugh. But there is a huge hole and I'm not really sure who or how to feel it.
I'm ok with not getting what I get from my therapist in other places, so long as I can keep getting it from him.
******But like you said, you don't want what I want from your therapist. I always grin though, when I read that you'd kill each other IRL. Do you think he'd drive you nuts?
But I know that's frowned upon.
*****Not as much as it used to be. Think about how most terminations now keep the door open for return or tune-up visits in the future. And many people use therapy to work towards self-actualization, which is a life-long process. And therapists, via supervision and other forms, keep going to therapy their whole lives. So who are they to talk? :)
Posted by DAisym on July 17, 2007, at 19:19:36
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » DAisym, posted by JoniS on July 16, 2007, at 21:11:07
I can hear the pain and longing in your post. It all sounds very difficult and I'm sorry you were hurt by your husband. You are brave to keep working on it, you must love him very much.
Perhaps we are most vulnerable to these intense longings when our therapists do "match" us to some degree. I know enough about my therapist to know that we like many of the same things, but I don't know enough about what our differences are to know if I could tolerate those. What if he likes to camp?! (shudder)
I always think of the part of "In Session" where she describes it as a set up - professionally having your heart broken. Good therapy happens when there is a strong connection and trust but no one treats the side effects. We all need Therapy for therapy, I think as Tender said. I guess that is what Babble is to me.
Yesterday I told him what I wrote here about having someone say the exact right thing and the exact right moment and how profound that experience is. I also said that there were times when I wish I didn't know what that felt like. He said, "do you really wish that? Would it be better if I couldn't do that for you?" I said probably not, that I cherished those moments. On the other hand, sometimes it feels like a tease. I told him I blamed him for allowing me to remember and talk about all the hard stuff and for allowing all this neediness AND for being so da*n nice about it all the time! He asked me if I preferred that he was an a&&h*le about it...I told him he didn't have it in him. Now that was a discussion!
I'm glad you have a therapist you can be candid with. It really does help. Thank you for sharing your experience. And you really didn't have to stop. Sometimes it helps to get it all down and out here.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2007, at 19:49:17
In reply to Re: I think.... » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 17, 2007, at 19:02:59
> I think I've come to terms that I'm not going to get that elsewhere. That's why I'm in favor of forever therapy. It's a very unique relationship, and valuable on its own.
>
> ****Yes, I think I might be Ok with that too, except eventually he'll retire. Then what will I do? For sure it is a unique relationship -- but I think it isn't supposed to take up this much space in my life. He tells me it won't always, that the more we work things through, the less intense it will feel. Right now therapy feels like a life line. And I hate feeling this dependent.My therapist says I can keep seeing him as long as he can hobble to a chair. I'm not sure if he's teasing me or not.
I would say that it does get less intense. It's less intense for me now than it was a few years ago. It's still nice, but it's less intense. It's like infatuation you know? That level of feeling can't last indefinitely. Eventually it burns itself out and leaves something else behind. Hopefully something equally nice.
>
> I don't know if it's realistic to expect everything in one place. A relationship superstore. Some things I get from my husband, some things from my friends, some things from my husband, and some things can only be supplied by my dogs.
>
> ******Agreed. But I barely know how to get anything from anyone - I'm pretty used to giving. I think my children are teaching me to be optimistic again - I used to be the world's biggest Pollyanna...and my friends remind me to laugh. But there is a huge hole and I'm not really sure who or how to feel it.You know, it is a gift to others to allow them to give to you. And to some extent, I think therapy can teach you to ask for what you need, teach you to extend the vulnerability that you show in therapy and here at Babble to other places in your life, and in a way that won't cause undue harm. But you won't get the same response you get from your therapist, I don't think. Unless you meet someone else who's been in therapy for a long time.
>
> I'm ok with not getting what I get from my therapist in other places, so long as I can keep getting it from him.
>
> ******But like you said, you don't want what I want from your therapist. I always grin though, when I read that you'd kill each other IRL. Do you think he'd drive you nuts?We might be a bit too sensible to kill each other. But definitely we'd drive each other nuts. Our flaws and strong points wouldn't complement well outside the therapy room, although they complement very well inside the therapy room.
>
> But I know that's frowned upon.
>
> *****Not as much as it used to be. Think about how most terminations now keep the door open for return or tune-up visits in the future. And many people use therapy to work towards self-actualization, which is a life-long process. And therapists, via supervision and other forms, keep going to therapy their whole lives. So who are they to talk? :)
>:-)
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2007, at 19:49:43
In reply to Re: I think...., posted by Dinah on July 17, 2007, at 19:49:17
This is the end of the thread.
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