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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by raisinb on August 1, 2008, at 15:54:10
BSD's thread above got me thinking. My therapist and I occasionally clash on this issue. If we're processing something in our relationship, she wants me to look at childhood connections. Like, "how did this feel when your mom did the same thing?" I typically respond, "well, I guess it must have felt..." because honestly, I can still feel the feelings, but just about her--I can't remember what it was like to feel them about my parents.
Sometimes I feel guilty because I feel little for my parents. I can't say I love them. I don't miss them. I don't look forward to seeing them. I don't think about them on a regular basis.
When my therapist shifts the discussion towards them, I analyze everything intellectually, but I get bored and feel nothing. It feels unproductive. So I resist, and she thinks I don't want to work in therapy. My best guess is that I gave up on my parents a long, long time ago and I find it impossible to go back. I will *agonize* if my therapist leaves for a week, but don't notice if I don't see my parents for months. In theory I think that's how therapy should be done--tracing trauma back to childhood. But it never seems to go anywhere for me. Maybe it is that my feelings seem part of me and unchangeable since I have been dealing with them all my life. They don't seem to come from a moment in the past, even though I know they did.
How do you guys feel about your families of origin? How is it talking about them in therapy? If you've experienced this issue, have you gotten around it, and how? Often when we reach this point, my therapist and I get stuck.
Posted by cbtish on August 1, 2008, at 16:39:19
In reply to talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by raisinb on August 1, 2008, at 15:54:10
Yes, your feelings are part of you in the here and now. I think it's unrealistic (and unreliable) for your therapist to expect you to detach from them and re-create childhood feelings.
I think a better approach is to reconstruct your childhood from factual memories. Then you can work out what your feelings must have been at that time from the reality of how you behaved. That way, you are making your ability in intellectual analysis work for you, instead of trying to suppress it.
I don't get the feeling your therapist is very good at this. :(
Posted by onceupon on August 1, 2008, at 18:49:56
In reply to talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by raisinb on August 1, 2008, at 15:54:10
I also don't remember a lot of specifics about what I felt towards my parents. What I mostly have is a vague sense about general feeling categories (mostly anger and fear) that I can remember experiencing a lot, but I can't tie them to any specific circumstances.
I guess I'm of the opinion that if you don't feel much for your parents now, and don't have a need to change that, it doesn't really matter how you felt about your parents' actions growing up. That was a little convoluted, but I guess the idea is that what you DO experience clearly and can work on are your reactions to your therapist. I can see the value in psychodynamic approaches, but I think I would get frustrated with them, since I remember so little of my childhood. It seems like you don't necessarily need to know the source of your feelings to be able to work on them.
My relationship with my family has changed a little since having a kid, but it's still a mostly superficial, do not discuss your feelings, do not admit to anything being wrong kind of relationship. I've actually been talking in therapy a lot about whether I want to invest in changing this (especially as my dad's health is declining), but to be honest, I don't feel too motivated at this point. It seems like I worked hard to distance myself from what felt like damaging aspects of my relationship with my parents, and right now, maintaining that protective stance is more important to me than anything else.
I get stuck a lot in talking about my family too. Don't have any solutions for that, unfortunately. Except maybe talking explicitly about your boredom and stuck feelings around discussing your family.
Posted by Suedehead on August 1, 2008, at 18:55:57
In reply to talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by raisinb on August 1, 2008, at 15:54:10
I've noticed that I feel certain things about my childhood *now*, looking back on it, that I don't recall having felt at the time, and that is unsettling to me. Mainly, I don't remember feeling particularly bad as a child, or being unhappy with the way my parents related to me, but now, when I allow myself to think and talk about my childhood in therapy, I'm often filled with hostility toward them over various things. A lot of the conversations I have with my T about my parents involve my disclosing something about the way they handled some situation, followed by his expressing disapproval of their behavior and sympathy/concern for me (both as a child and in my present state). Then, I feel a little shocked as the realization that my parents really weren't perfect sets in. But this is followed by an enormous feeling of guilt, and I usually have to qualify everything we've just talked about with something like, "But my parents loved me, really! They didn't mean it! I don't want to give you the wrong impression about them." It's annoying.
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 10:40:45
In reply to talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by raisinb on August 1, 2008, at 15:54:10
Oh, what an interesting topic. It sounds like your feelings are really quite complex, and from my experience--and please don't get offended, I'm only speaking from what I've learned--you've found plenty of ways to cope with how you feel about your childhood, but a lot of them sound like denial to me. Especially the boredom caught my attention, as if you don't want to go there and you've decided it's boring. A psychodynamic T would probe that, and try to get you closer to the your original feelings.
You said,
"It seems like you don't necessarily need to know the source of your feelings to be able to work on them."IMO, yes you do have to work on the source. Think of it as reversing the situation. You get upset with your T for things she does--and yes, she certainly has a responsiblity for the here and now--but the feelings are coming up from the past. Part of her job is to figure out what is triggered in you that makes her absences so difficult for you.
You may not want to go to the source of the feelings at all; that may not be what you want, and that's certainly OK. The only time it's trouble, again, in my experience, is when those original coping mechanisms don't work for you today. For me, I had to learn WHY I had certain reactions, and to open up to my T so that I could have a corrective emotional experience (I really hate the jargon, sorry), which helped me develop new coping skills that weren't destructive, physically and emotionally.
I must admit, though, my T does think every experience I have with her (vacations, our relationship) all trigger feelings from the past.
Can I ask a question? How do you think she should handle this (is it a she? if not, I'm sorry). How would you like her to handle these types of things?
antigua
Posted by raisinb on August 2, 2008, at 12:15:48
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 10:40:45
Hi antigua--
That's a very thoughtful--and probably accurate--response. You're probably right about the denial. It just seems a futile, endless process to try to reverse something that happened so long ago.Maybe "bored" wasn't the right way to describe it. I think I feel *pressured* when I go in, because I've only got 50-60 minutes (my therapist is nice and lets us run over--but still) to feel better, to process the intense, painful feelings about her. Talking about my childhood feels like a waste of time--a detour from the stuff I desperately need to get out. It's as if I'm feeling restless and anxious and I have only half an hour to exercise--and someone's making me do Tai Chi (if that analogy makes sense :)).
I get the idea of a corrective emotional experience--and I want one very much. I suppose talking about my childhood doesn't feel like the way to get it.
Also, before I finally went into therapy, I spent several years reading books, analyzing myself, journaling, etc. I was so desperate to figure out why I was in so much pain and why my relationships were always so horrible in the same ways. And I did. I figured out all of the childhood origins. But it never did me one bit of good. It never changed a thing, and I think it's because it all happened on a purely intellectual level. My deepest emotions weren't touched. So I am afraid of doing that all over again with my therapist.
How would I like her to handle it? Well, ideally, I'd like to do both--process my feelings about her in detail, then, *later* talk about childhood connections. I just want the first to happen thoroughly before the second begins. And I want to be able to choose the timing and the pacing of how that happens. But it feels like my therapist doesn't trust me to do that. Maybe that is partly what hurts about it.
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:01:57
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy » antigua3, posted by raisinb on August 2, 2008, at 12:15:48
> It just seems a futile, endless process to try to reverse something that happened so long ago.
>
I don't think you can ever reverse it; it's finding a way to live with it maybe.> Maybe "bored" wasn't the right way to describe it. I think I feel *pressured* when I go in, because I've only got 50-60 minutes (my therapist is nice and lets us run over--but still) to feel better, to process the intense, painful feelings about her. Talking about my childhood feels like a waste of time--a detour from the stuff I desperately need to get out. It's as if I'm feeling restless and anxious and I have only half an hour to exercise--and someone's making me do Tai Chi (if that analogy makes sense :)).
>>>I know exactly what you mean. I'm always watching the clock, trying to stuff everything in and wondering at times "why are we going down that path?" This is what I tend to do, since I'm such a control freak. I do this with both pdoc and T. First I address anything that bothered me about the last session, and try to limit their responses, until I get everything out that I want to say that day. Then I throw it back to them.I'm getting better at timing it, so they have at least 30 mins to respond, but invariably something comes up in the last 10 minutes, and that can be awful, because you're left hanging.
> I get the idea of a corrective emotional experience--and I want one very much. I suppose talking about my childhood doesn't feel like the way to get it.
>>OK, what way do you think would work for you? You know I'm asking honestly, and not in a hurtful way at all, because there are so many ways to approach this--there is no "right" way; it's what works for the patient.
>
> Also, before I finally went into therapy, I spent several years reading books, analyzing myself, journaling, etc. I was so desperate to figure out why I was in so much pain and why my relationships were always so horrible in the same ways. And I did. I figured out all of the childhood origins.>But it never did me one bit of good. It never changed a thing, and I think it's because it all happened on a purely intellectual level. My deepest emotions weren't touched. So I am afraid of doing that all over again with my therapist.
>
>>You should be afraid of it! It's a terribly, hard, difficult, hurtful thing to have to do. But you have a head start. I'm a great intellectualizer, too, but now my T and pdoc don't let me do that--They want the feelings now and I've distanced myself so far from them that it's very hard for me to access. I used to cry over these things all the time, and then grew a hard shell that has yet to be cracked in places because of my fear of letting one in, to trust again with the fear of being hurt. It's horrible, but in my case, it has been so worth it. I have yet to "let go" of things, but what I have released has the added benefit of giving me more energy to deal with the world, and less of a need to be in such tight control of everything. Now THAT takes a lot of energy.
> How would I like her to handle it? Well, ideally, I'd like to do both--process my feelings about her in detail, then, *later* talk about childhood connections. I just want the first to happen thoroughly before the second begins. And I want to be able to choose the timing and the pacing of how that happens. But it feels like my therapist doesn't trust me to do that. Maybe that is partly what hurts about it.>>See, you have a plan. Go ahead and discuss this with her. My T always lets me set the pacing because I'm so impatient that I want to barge through everything, but my mind won't let me, and neither will she. She always says that our minds let us know when we are ready. Forcing it has never worked for me.
all my best,
antigua
Posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 13:03:39
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 10:40:45
I think I was actually the one who said:
"It seems like you don't necessarily need to know the source of your feelings to be able to work on them."
And I think you make a good point, that if you don't ever get back to the source, it will be difficult to change the patterns of responses to others that have been set up through early relationships (if my paraphrasing makes sense).
But I also like what raisinb said - that it would be nice to be able to work on both. It's hard, IME, not to feel discounted when bringing up my feelings about my relationship with my therapist and immediately being turned to look at my childhood. And I think that exploring my relationship with my therapist can be a direct route to exploring previous relationships too.
Great topic!
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:08:09
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy » antigua3, posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 13:03:39
Oh, so sorry; I just got so involved with all the interesting things that were said. Credit given where credit is due.
And yes, I agree with what you said, and I've noted it above--there are many different ways to approach this and who says this isn't a valid one? I certainly think it is; you just have to be in agreement with your T on the approach so you aren't working at odds--and you don't spend all your time fighting or disagreeing because that's wasted time.
antigua
Posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 13:18:27
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy » onceupon, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:08:09
Oh, no need for credit - I just wanted to be sure that my ideas weren't getting mixed up with the original poster's.
You're definitely right about avoiding the disagreeing and the fighting, although in my case, it would be more like silent seething or annoyance about taking a path that I don't want to take :)
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:25:37
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy » antigua3, posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 13:18:27
I may have missed it, but does your T know you feel this way?
Do you have an idea about what would make you feel better in terms of her behavior/approach?
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:52:31
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by cbtish on August 1, 2008, at 16:39:19
I think this is an excellent approach, and one I'm trying to work on with my pdoc.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:55:41
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by Suedehead on August 1, 2008, at 18:55:57
Yes, it's funny how our perspective changes, doesn't it? Sounds like your guilt is a way of defending them, because after all they loved you, right? Even though they loved you, they may not have given you what you needed, and you should try not to feel guilty about this. Feelings are feelings, no right or wrong.
antigua
Posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 14:12:38
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:25:37
Don't want to hijack this thread with my own issues. But in short, it's not so much that she has a poor approach, but rather, that I lack the assertiveness to say, "Hey, I really want to talk about this instead."
Just one more topic for therapy, right?
Posted by Daisym on August 2, 2008, at 17:03:07
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy » antigua3, posted by onceupon on August 2, 2008, at 14:12:38
I think it totally depends on the issue that brought you to therapy as to whether your childhood stuff is important. For example: if you go in because you seem to have an inability to get to work on time, you may want to explore what you are doing that makes you late, what you might be afraid of at work, etc. These things may lead back to a childhood pattern but there are ways to take corrective actions quickly without going there.
On the other hand, if most of the reasons you are going to therapy are relationship based - including your relationship with yourself - I think how you came to be who you are is certainly important. I can tell you as a parent, I often wonder what my kids will say about me when they are on the couch at 40. But all parents make mistakes, it is part of the human condition that we hurt our kids and make mistakes. Acknowledging the humanness of our parents and their mistakes does not make them all bad or take away their love and their good intentions. These are pieces of the puzzle of who you are. So while guilt is understandable, it is often misplaced. Therapy is a safe place to say all the things you'd never say to them because the truth is they did a "good enough" job and loved you. You don't want to hurt them - you want to work on the truth of how their choices shaped you. Of course, some of us had parents who really did harm us intentionally, and those are whole different childhood issues. Growing up is just really hard work, with lots of painful moments that live in us. Working through them can be helpful but not always.
I'm also struck by the comment of wanting to do therapy one way and the therapist wanting to do it another. While I really believe in client directed therapy, I think we are also paying the therapist for their expertise and their help in pacing and in looking at stuff that we might not want to look at. Otherwise, the intellectual process you embarked on alone would have been sufficient. I think trust goes both ways and you'll have to ask yourself if you trust your therapist to help you hold really painful feelings. Therapy isn't always necessarily supposed to feel good - there should be some pressure and some fear and fear of the unknown. Not an overwhelming amount - "optimal frustration" which promotes change. It is a very large order for the therapist - security and frustration roled into a relationship package.
Children learn within the context of relationships. I believe adults do too - the courage to change and grow and risk is often supported by another person. In families, there is no support for change (usually) because it distrupts the family system, and systems resist change mightly. This is why even the most well meaning family support is different from theraputic support. In therapy, change is expected, along with all the growing pains.
And I have to say, I don't know if I could work like I work in therapy if I didn't go often. I'm not under so much pressure to get to this or that because I know I'm coming back soon. Very few people have this luxury though, I know.
Good discussion...
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 17:25:53
In reply to Another thought, posted by Daisym on August 2, 2008, at 17:03:07
> Acknowledging the humanness of our parents and their mistakes does not make them all bad or take away their love and their good intentions. These are pieces of the puzzle of who you are. So while guilt is understandable, it is often misplaced. Therapy is a safe place to say all the things you'd never say to them because the truth is they did a "good enough" job and loved you. You don't want to hurt them - you want to work on the truth of how their choices shaped you.
Daisy, I really love this, and think I'll bookmark it. I always take back half of what I say about my parents, for the very reason you mention. My mother now is not really the mother I had then, and I guess I'm afraid of being unfair to *that* mother, the good enough mother.
> I'm also struck by the comment of wanting to do therapy one way and the therapist wanting to do it another. While I really believe in client directed therapy, I think we are also paying the therapist for their expertise and their help in pacing and in looking at stuff that we might not want to look at.
This hits home too. :) I definitely know that I exert a lot of control over the course of my therapy. And that I don't necessarily trust him to know what's best for me. I still don't know how to view that. I'd be inclined to say that different levels of control and trust work better for different clients. But that might be a wee bit self serving of me. Still... Is it really a good idea to have that much faith in anyone to know what's best? Is it really wrong to trust our own instincts more than we trust theirs? I can't help but think it would be the worst sort of stupid to trust my therapist that much. And I guess that rubs off on my attitudes towards the concept in general.
Posted by raisinb on August 2, 2008, at 19:00:37
In reply to Re: talking about your childhood in therapy, posted by antigua3 on August 2, 2008, at 13:01:57
Antigua, you've given me so much to think about. I'm glad I started this discussion.
I don't think this was your intention--but I wonder if it sometimes this is why therapists do it--I don't want to get acknowledging my own issues confused with looking at my childhood. For instance, I can admit, "yes, I have trouble separating my own needs from others'," without talking about how my mother wouldn't let me be a separate person. I can acknowledge my part of things and work on my stuff in the present without necessarily having to trace it to my past. I suppose it feels like that's the way it would work for me.
I know my therapist doesn't want me to intellectualize. She's always pushing me to express emotion. But I don't know if she understands that it's nearly impossible not to when I'm talking about stuff that occurred twenty-five years ago.
I *will* bring this up with her. I'm glad I started this thread.
Posted by raisinb on August 2, 2008, at 19:06:43
In reply to Another thought, posted by Daisym on August 2, 2008, at 17:03:07
Daisy, you're right that this issue hinges upon another larger one--to what extent am I able to trust my therapist and let her control things?
I'm not too sure. Maybe I'm somewhere in between you and Dinah--closer to Dinah I think.
The thing is, my therapist often doesn't understand me that well, and we often don't communicate well. I'm okay with that. She and I have talked about it. I know perfect understanding is not possible. But sometimes she's so off that it is literally like we are speaking different languages. I'm a pretty good communicator (after all, I teach English) but sometimes I can't even figure out what one of her questions means. In these cases--especially when there's the time pressure--I find it almost impossible to trust, because that would mean a waste of time. And sometimes what she asks simply doesn't go anywhere. It's a nonstarter. So...what do I do?
Plus, with all the childhood stuff, I've thought so much about it on my own and with other, previous therapists, that sometimes I feel like the smart kid in a remedial class. Like, "yeah, I KNOW that, I've figured all that OUT, already!" Patience is not one of my virtues :)
Glad I started this thread. You all have given me a good deal to chew on.
Posted by onceupon on August 3, 2008, at 20:12:30
In reply to Another thought, posted by Daisym on August 2, 2008, at 17:03:07
"It is a very large order for the therapist - security and frustration roled into a relationship package."
I like this phrasing a lot. And I agree, it must be really hard for therapists to walk this balance.
I'm intrigued too by the idea of trusting that a therapist will know which way to steer a client (more or less). I think it's true that therapists should have the expertise to have some idea of the "bigger picture" in mind, and therefore be able to map out where a client might need to go. But of course, their idea of the big picture is dependent on what the client has already told them. Speaking only for myself, I tend to have a difficult time speaking up about some things - especially about my relationship with my therapist - and I think that tendency probably distorts my therapist's view of me. Long story short, she might not have the whole picture. But I'm working on it...very slowly.
It's hard for a lot of us to trust that our therapists know where they're going, isn't it? Or maybe just scary to give up that control.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 21:49:52
In reply to Another thought, posted by Daisym on August 2, 2008, at 17:03:07
I do have to say though, Daisy, that if I had your therapist I might be inclined to trust completely.
I do mean that as a compliment to your therapist, but I don't necessarily mean it as an insult to mine.
There are all sorts of wisdom. And all sorts of trust.
Maybe the median view is to trust appropriately?
Posted by Daisym on August 4, 2008, at 0:08:35
In reply to Re: Another thought » Daisym, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 21:49:52
I have so much I want to write but I'm exhausted and need to go elevate my knee. But I will say that I find it interesting that I have trouble trusting that my therapist will push me out of the nest when I'm ready to fly. I, of course, have huge fears of being abandoned. But I think of that somehow connected to what I might do, not what he would do. But I just don't think he'll kick me out.
Perhaps it isn't so much trusting what we should be talking about as much as I trust that he will note what we aren't talking about or flatly identify something as a red herring. He often says, "is this really what you want to be talking about?" And sometimes I've said, "what do you think we should be talking about?" and he has an answer! Startles me because I sort of think he'll say, "whatever you wish." But again - maybe this is years of working together and trusting that a misstep isn't the end of the world, it is just a painful moment.
But I really hate those painful moments. :(
This is the end of the thread.
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