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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
One of the thoughts I have about therapy, when I think about it outside my session, is that it doesn't feel real. There is my real life, that is full with an active family + busy job and my therapy life, which is thought provoking, painful, frustrating, loving, time consuming, solitary, sad, etc. etc. I have been telling my t it's like my therapy life is in a box with stories and complicated feelings jammed in a box that come out three times a week only with her.
Originally when we talked about this, she thought that was a healthy place to keep those feelings, a box to be shared with her in the safety of her office.
Yesterday I told her how frustrated I am with myself sharing with her small personal details. She asked for an example and the one that popped into my head was a few weeks ago I mentioned my husband took me to my favorite restaurant when both our children were at summer camp. My therapist asked, "What's your favoirte restaurant?" My insides were screaming, "Do you really care what my favorite restaurant is?" I cringed telling her.
So we talked about why that was hard for me. Quietly I pondered that answer. I told her, "I don't think of you living in the same area, same planet as I do. I don't want to think you know my favorite restaurant. Then there is a possibility that you will like it too. (pause) And I don't want to see you there." Although there is this another side of me that would love to see her in her "real" life. Hence the conflict.
Anyway, it was a wonderful session for me. She said, "If you ran into me at a store, you might gather more information about me and I might gather more information about you. Would our relationship change?" And the answer is "No". She told me, "I am the same person inside this office as I am outside this office." I wasn't sure if that made it better or worse for me to digest. I'd rather imagine her screaming at her kids once in awhile.
We talked about why I found it important to keep her living inside her office (and of course my brain couldn't hold onto those words). But I left feeling closer to her (if that's possible). And maybe I need to open that box outside the office too. There is more "there" to explore and I can't put my finger on it but it was a good road to go down.
Posted by raisinb on August 6, 2008, at 10:03:01
In reply to Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
Wow, that sounds like such an amazing session!
I experience many of the same conflicts (the only time I ran into my therapist outside the office was extremely traumatic).
First, I *don't* want to be confronted with the fact that she has a real, important (more important than me!) outside therapy.
Second, I don't want her to an ordinary person. Because then she's just like everybody else who's been too blind, too self-centered, or too messed up themselves to help me. Intense transference creates a sort of magical aura. I want the magic to stay.
The other day I mentioned I'd gotten a new pdoc and was seeing her this week. My therapist asked who it was, and on hearing the name, said, "oh! I like x!" This really threw me for a loop. I didn't like that she knew her, and I definitely didn't like hearing that she liked her and might communicate with her.
Though lately, the "magic"'s been fading as a result of my increased self-confidence and our increased closeness. I look at her more and feel affection, but it's not the same as a vague fantasy constituted around a disembodied voice. I guess this is how therapy--at least mine--develops. Inevitably I was going to realize she couldn't magically transform me with her infinite caring. She'd say, of course, that I don't need to be transformed.
This is a rich topic. You've inspired me to talk to my therapist about this.
Posted by antigua3 on August 6, 2008, at 10:29:07
In reply to Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
Yes, it's a tough thing to process. For me, I had no choice but get past it because one day my T mentioned that her daughter was going to a new school (a very small, private, family one) and it was the one my kids went too!!! The first couple of times I saw her, I ran like h*ll, but I got used to it. But at that time in therapy, I didn't want her to be outside the therapy box.
Now I don't care. I'd love to run into her. Surprised I haven't. Our kids don't go to the same school anymore (wah, they grew up).
Now, as to my pdoc. I'm at the stage where I don't want to know ANYTHING about his outside life. It's startling when I've seen him on TV talking about some study he has been involved in, and I admit it panicks me, but I don't want to ever run into him with his wife and kids. No way; he's a robot.
antigua
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 10:35:01
In reply to Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
I *do* think seeing your therapist as a real person is the next step to therapy. As raisinb said, the intense transference gives way to something else. Something that helps with that infernal growing up.
Since Katrina, I've seen so much of the real person of my therapist that I've grown a warm affection toward him. Since I'm me, I also maintain the magic because that's very important to me. But then, I also maintained an elaborate structure of rationalizations that let me believe in Santa long past when I was being told outright that there was no such thing.
I may know him to be a real person, but that doesn't mean I want to meet him elsewhere. He says he's the same person in his office and out, but he's not. He's not even the same person on the phone. And there may be things in his shopping cart - condoms, lubricants, jock itch medication, anti-diarrhea suppositories, mega sized jugs of cheap wine - that might not change how I saw him, but would definitely be *too much information*.
And... It does hurt to see them with loved ones. And realize however real their feelings are in that room, they aren't the same as those outside feelings. I don't envy my therapist's wife, I don't care about him in a wifely way, but it somehow stung to hear him sign off his conversation with her with an "I love you". If I were to see him with his very young niece, I might well gnash my teeth and drum my feet on the floor.
So... I dunno. I guess I can see both sides. I originally wrote "be" both sides. I need to think about that slip. :)
I think it is lovely to see your relationship with her unfold.
Posted by myrtledog on August 6, 2008, at 10:51:55
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » Annierose, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 10:35:01
I remember once having a virtual breakdown after bumping into my T in a supermarket. It was the french stick in her trolley that did it - a symbol of family life, which did not include me.
Posted by Cal on August 6, 2008, at 12:36:17
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by myrtledog on August 6, 2008, at 10:51:55
Yes I find it hard also dealing with the loss of the fantasy T and T the real person. She assures me that the real relationship is and will be more satisfying. But at the moment it seems more like hard work, having to work through my own fears and trusting that the real relationship is ok.
Posted by myrtledog on August 6, 2008, at 12:52:43
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Cal on August 6, 2008, at 12:36:17
**sobs**
I want my T back**sobs**
Posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2008, at 12:55:34
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by myrtledog on August 6, 2008, at 12:52:43
I feel you were very fortunate to have a T that you became so close to. I kind of envy that. Sounds Like was a great realtionship is it over? Phillipa
Posted by Daisym on August 6, 2008, at 13:19:36
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » myrtledog, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2008, at 12:55:34
OMG! yesterday I told my therapist that I preferred to think of him living in his office with a hot plate and blanket. He laughed.
The few times I've run into him in the community, I've seen him and he hasn't seen me. But when I told him, he was really understanding about why it was so jarring.
I tend to freak out when I run into his promotional material - yellow page ad, web site. I guess knowing he needs to keep looking for that perfect client upsets me. (Since, hey, I thought it was *me*!)
One of the things I've been thinking about is that perhaps if he evolves into being "real" we can keep in touch when therapy is over - Holiday cards, emails. Another fantasy? Probably.
Posted by wishingstar on August 6, 2008, at 13:56:28
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Daisym on August 6, 2008, at 13:19:36
I think one of the things that makes therapy work, and makes it possible to open yourself up to a therapist so much, is that they arent "real people" in most ways to clients. I agree that coming to see them as a real person is a useful step in therapy, but I think it has to come after a certain level of trust and rapport has been developed over time and working together.
I think my biggest problem in therapy (currently and with past therapists) is that however it happens, I tend to see them as a "real person" very early in the relationship. Because they feel real to me, it's harder to open up any more than I would to anyone else. I've never really let myself get vulnerable in therapy because therapists dont feel safer to me than anyone else, and that safety is important to the hard work, I think. I want to learn to do it differently, but so far I havent been able to. I think part of the issue is that I work in mental health in the same town so we tend to share general gossip (nothing inappropriate) occasionally about different agencies, and we do discuss my cases (how they affect me, etc..) from time to time, and even though that is appropriate for therapy I think, the discussions do get more professional and draw a different kind of interest from my T than other topics.
I had one T in the past, my first real T, that went differently. It took many years before I saw her as a real person, and even now I dont completely. We do exchange email occasionally and I send her holiday cards.. but I still feel like she can see right through me and I can be vulnerable with her on the rare occasion I do have a session with her. Being real and vulnerable is just expected.
Posted by Lucie Lu on August 6, 2008, at 15:36:58
In reply to Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
I agree, this is a really good topic to bring up... When I was most embroiled in trauma work and caught up in intense transferential emotions, it felt to me as though my T and I were in a fantasy relationship shaped by my intense needs for love, protection and rescue. As that stage began to ebb, I began to have less need for him in that way and therefore less of a basis for our deep connection, or so I believed, which made me anxious. I found myself resenting his more powerful position in our relationship even though much of it was power I had been endowing him with. These feelings lead to a very uncomfortable ambivalent stage which I am still trying to work my way through.
Most recently I've been trying to see my T and other important figures in my life as equals. For me it's like struggling to uncross your eyes so you can see clearly. Although I am a professional woman with an active life at work and at home, my inner landscape seems a universe away from all that - a land where major life-or-death battles are still fought and where most of the players are anything but life size. I remember my T once promising me that a true peer relationship would bring me closeness that I could only begin to imagine (at that stage). Increasingly, I've been getting glimpses of what he meant, by learning to see important people in my life as peers, without the glow or tarnish of transference.
So while sometimes I miss the halo and sword of my "avenging archangel," I experience my T more accurately now because I am more open to seeing him as just another person. It amazes me that this other not-me person knows me and my life so well. I don't think I'd mind running into him outside, and it seems odd that we never have since we live not too far from each other. I sometimes imagine him buying junk food at the supermarket or wearing outrageous plaid golf pants, and it makes me laugh. Without his larger-than-life status now, I like who my T is becoming to me and sessions tend to have a different flavor. Not better or worse, just different.
Having said all that... I admit to being curious about his wife, I wish he would tell me where he goes for his vacations, and he *definitely* shouldn't be allowed to take three consecutive weeks of vacation.
Lucie
Posted by raisinb on August 6, 2008, at 16:13:49
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by wishingstar on August 6, 2008, at 13:56:28
<<I think my biggest problem in therapy (currently and with past therapists) is that however it happens, I tend to see them as a "real person" very early in the relationship. Because they feel real to me, it's harder to open up any more than I would to anyone else. I've never really let myself get vulnerable in therapy because therapists dont feel safer to me than anyone else, and that safety is important to the hard work, I think. I want to learn to do it differently, but so far I havent been able to. I think part of the issue is that I work in mental health in the same town so we tend to share general gossip (nothing inappropriate) occasionally about different agencies, and we do discuss my cases (how they affect me, etc..) from time to time, and even though that is appropriate for therapy I think, the discussions do get more professional and draw a different kind of interest from my T than other topics.>>
This is definitely true. When I think about what created the intense transference with my current therapist, part of it is about boundaries. All my previous therapists had loose ones. They'd talk about their lives, their partners, they'd frequently run late, they'd touch me, they'd have websites with links and self-help tips. And, when I was living in Ohio, I was close friends with several psychologists-in-training whom I got referrals from--which means I knew what the therapist was like in a classroom before I saw her.
When I started seeing my current therapist, I couldn't understand why she was so formal and careful about starting on time, not talking about herself, and processing missed sessions/cancellations. But it sure worked on me unconsciously.
Posted by Lucie Lu on August 6, 2008, at 16:24:01
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » wishingstar, posted by raisinb on August 6, 2008, at 16:13:49
> When I started seeing my current therapist, I couldn't understand why she was so formal and careful about starting on time, not talking about herself, and processing missed sessions/cancellations. But it sure worked on me unconsciously.
My T did too and I needed that safety and structure, especially when going through the worst. But he was not withholding - he was accessible by phone, would give me extra sessions if I really needed them, would reschedule if my work required it etc. I knew he would always be there for me. The boundaries were always consistent but within those boundaries he always gave me a great deal of himself.
Posted by Lemonaide on August 6, 2008, at 18:05:01
In reply to Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
I think seeing our T as real people is one thing and then seeing the real person in real life is another.
Seeing in the gym shorts is another
For me, I think I would rather have a blank slate T from now on.
And seeing your T out in the public does change things and even if the T says they are the same, seeing them in a different environment will feel different, and it might change the way you see them. Different lighting, etc., can make them look different too.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 18:19:03
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Lemonaide on August 6, 2008, at 18:05:01
Perhaps it's not such a bad thing to not want to see them in person, or if they're different in person.
My therapist is my therapist/mommy in that room. It's not just that I push that vision onto a blank slate. It's true. His attitude to me is one that would look decidedly odd were he to meet me in public, and even odder if he were to meet me when he was with his family or I was with mine.
People behave differently in different contexts. Even if they are being completely and totally sincere and open about who they are.
We can be as intimate and open as we are in that room because we're in that room. Possibly on both sides. Intimacy that is appropriate in one place would be inappropriate in another.
To have to juggle all that would make therapy harder than it needs to be, IMO.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 18:20:23
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Lemonaide on August 6, 2008, at 18:05:01
And definitely no gym shorts.
Although I did see my therapist in shorts one time. It's all he'd brought with him I guess. It was ok. But it was a relatively formal and "normal" therapy session despite the informal location and attire.
Posted by Poet on August 6, 2008, at 19:17:27
In reply to Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
Hi Annierose,
I see my T as a real person. She's shown me photos from vacations, I know she has children and grandchildren and so I can see her as having a life outside her office. Though she goes to the same movie theatres I do and I'm always afraid I'll run into her. Talking about movies we've both seen in her office is fine, being in the movie theatre at the same time would make me uncomfortable.
I tend to avoid people I know in public so if I saw her walking down the street I'd just duck my head and walk the other way. Dr. Clueless told me that if she sees a patient in public she ignores them. I would hope my T would ignore me. BTW Dr. Clueless' office used to be above one of the movie theatres, I was always afraid of running into her and T. Now her office is around the corner, but still close. Darn it why are the art house theatres near them?
Poet
Posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 20:53:17
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » Annierose, posted by raisinb on August 6, 2008, at 10:03:01
"Intense transference creates a sort of magical aura. I want the magic to stay."
Oh, how I identify with this.
"I look at her more and feel affection, but it's not the same as a vague fantasy constituted around a disembodied voice."
And this.
I think I go back and forth. On the days when I want to feel "competent" or "professional" or "put together" or whatever, I see my therapist as more of a real person, because I don't want to admit to wanting the magic. I don't want to admit that it feels sometimes like I need the fantasy. But on days when I want to feel more vulnerable, I want the magic, and it feels painful to see my therapist as a real person.
Posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 20:57:46
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » Annierose, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 10:35:01
"And there may be things in his shopping cart - condoms, lubricants, jock itch medication, anti-diarrhea suppositories, mega sized jugs of cheap wine - that might not change how I saw him, but would definitely be *too much information*."
Eek! That thought had never occurred to me. Must not think about seeing my therapist with anything but nice, normal food in her cart. And what would she think about what was in my cart?! *Mind reeling*
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 21:20:13
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » Dinah, posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 20:57:46
:)
We shared a drugstore. I had plenty of time to think about everything that could go wrong.
I asked him "What if I accidentally back out into your car. Or worse, what if I accidentally back out into your wife's car? Would that mess up the therapeutic relationship?" He answered "Do you have insurance? Ok then, we'd work it out."
Fortunately the only time I saw him at the drugstore he was in the totally unobjectionable bandaid aisle.
Posted by obsidian on August 6, 2008, at 21:35:21
In reply to Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by Annierose on August 6, 2008, at 8:18:25
yeah,
I like to imagine my therapist happy somewhere living his personal life with his family and friends
but
it also makes me sad
he's a real person, of course I know that
how lucky some other people must be to be really part of his lifeoh well,
I can't let myself think too much about what I don't have/haven't had
I've figured a lot of things out on my own
and I'm tired ya know?
Posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 22:21:58
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » onceupon, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 21:20:13
Hee! I like your therapist's response about insurance - he seems to have a great sense of humor, but in a perfectly serious way, if you know what I mean.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2008, at 22:27:07
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » Dinah, posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 22:21:58
Posted by healing928 on August 7, 2008, at 0:49:25
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person » Dinah, posted by onceupon on August 6, 2008, at 20:57:46
Oh my, if i didn't have healthy fruits, veggies, and chicken in the cart I think he would be disappointed.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 9, 2008, at 21:00:24
In reply to Re: Seeing my therapist as a real person, posted by healing928 on August 7, 2008, at 0:49:25
My T goes to my church...and so I knew him from there...but, in session he talkes about his personal life a lot because (he just told me this past week) he wants his patients to realize that he is human and that he does make mistakes just like everyone else. IT is good for me to be able to hear about his private life..because I then look at him as a regualar person. My previous T ..I thought of as a "God". I didn't know ANYTHING about her accept for the fact that she had 3 dogs. And, to me she was a "God" she did nothing wrong..come to find out she did a heck of a lot wrong and I ended up finding a new therapist..(the one I have now..that lets me into the details of his life...(some ..not all)Just enough to let me know that he is human. :)
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