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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 66. Go back in thread:
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 19:25:33
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » SLS, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 16:29:12
So I have an appt. monday with a new psychoanalyst. I think i'm going to ask her if we could just use monday to deal with this attachment thing though, and not go through history yet. I need to get this out of my system.
Posted by emmanuel98 on June 18, 2009, at 19:53:07
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » SLS, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 16:29:12
Boy do I relate to that (wanting a male T). I found my T through the insurance company's lists and I never even considered a female. I really wanted a father figure. Have you considered just interviewing some other T's on your insurance list?
> I still want a male therapist though. Idon't feel I've ever had adverse issues with female friends, am heterosexual, and think I need to work with a male to help me deal with the childhood fatherly dynamics to be capable of a mature, seasoned love with a partner someday. I remember, though, reading about theory long ago, that there's a female and male aspect to each gender.
>
> I finally called the female therapist, left a message. But I all i want to talk to her about is him. I'm grieving so much. I've known this doctor for only 3 hours total out of my entire life, yet felt more closly bonded to him than any other male in my entire life. It's scary and wonderful at the same time.
>
>
Posted by BirdSong on June 18, 2009, at 20:24:20
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 18:33:26
Garnet,
Please reread my posts regarding transference and my response to your very first post about this whole issue as well.
I apologize if you think I was implying that the reason your p-doc was not working with you was because of your transference reactions and attachment. I clearly stated several times that your p-doc is not working with you because the issue is with him...ie, old, not going to be available for intensive therapy for years, etc.While at times, an immediate attachment as your p-doc said "unusually quick" can signify certain diagnoses, that does not imply anything regarding you and why your analyst would not work with you.
Therapists can "do things" that intensify transference, some on purpose (not calling a client back) and some accidently (having to cancel an appointment with little notice); however things that are done on purpose are generally thought about and at times documented to ensure that the client is at a point to deal with the reaction that will develop.......BUT, transference exists in our everyday lives and does not have to be induced by a therapist or analyst. We replay and react based on transference. So, pretend you had a mother who consistently put you down and told you that you were stupid. Now, let's say you have a teacher that gives you back an assignment with a bad grade and glances at you in a way that you interpret to be a put-down. Was the teacher really looking at you as a put-down or are you reacting to transference based on your experience with your mother??Working through the transference that develops is how your unconscious mind works to fix your reactions. Your defense mechanism (regression, suppression, etc) exist to protect you from the unconscious getting conscious. Everyone has different defense mechanism and each person responds to a transference reaction differently. Some regress, some dissociate, some deny, some get angry, etc.
Please note: Regression therapy is not psychoanalytic therapy. Regression therapy is more solution focused.
A good analyst, a good psychodynamic T, a good play-therapy T, never turns a client away because of the intensiveness of the transference. As I said the first day to you, "Wow, this is fun!"....because the theory is based in believing in the power of the unconscious mind and what you bring to the room and react to.
But, good Ts or analysts WILL turn away a client if they (a) do not have time to keep themselves well, (b) will harm other clients by having too many, and (c) if the T recognizes that the client needs more than can be offered, because of time, life changes, etc.
I would like to direct you to the International Psychoanalytical Association (IPA). There is some interesting information and possible reading that you might enjoy.
One thing I think that at times many people confuse is the difference between true analysis and psychodynamic therapy. Analysis is usually done 3-4-5 times a week laying on a couch with a "blank slate/quiet" analyst. It is classic Freud theory with adult clients or Melanie Klein theory with play in children.
In analysis, the analyst "listens" while the client free associates and brings forth anything that comes to their mind.Psychodynamic therapy is usually done 2-3 times a week sitting face to face with a T who is more engaged with the client. The T "listens" but the T also responds.
In both settings, transference is very important. But, in analysis, because of the "therapeutic frame and setting" and the contact time, the transference develops a more intense quality to it and yes, it can become a TN.
Children attach in many styles. As adults those styles remain if not dealt with in therapy. So, one's attachment style will also come out in the transference and the relationship. I suggest looking into attachment styles, both from a child perspective and an adult perspective, as it will also provide you good insight into what is occurring/occurred.
Now, I responded to your post the way I did because your post was insightful and knowledgable. I did not respond to come across as a "smarty-pants" ~ but I know you and others can understand and perhaps then wish to research further. If I thought you were an idiot, I would not have responded like this. You are clearly interested in understanding analysis and perhaps the theories behind it all.
Best of luck with your new analyst. It is hard work, but if you have the insight, which it seems you do, and the coping skills to do analysis, you will come out a different person. Trust me.
It might cost a small fortune....but that is another story.
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 20:46:24
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me, posted by emmanuel98 on June 18, 2009, at 19:53:07
Well my insurance is not going to pay for this type of treatment, 3-5 times per week, and long term; I know few do. Doc also gave me referal of a current medical doctor who is male and going for his psychoanalyst certification.
He gave me these names because 1) he said they are good 2) they can give me some kind of reduced fee arrangement
But since he strongly recommended her, I'll try the female analyst and see. I'll give her a try and try to be open minded. yeah, know whatcha mean!
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 21:15:19
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines, posted by BirdSong on June 18, 2009, at 20:24:20
Thanks for all the great information; nothing you said to me sounds condescending, although I have already learned about many of those concepts you explained.
I guess one distinction is these doctors are certified psychoanalysts, but this one I know has adopted and integrated other eclectic approaches (i.e. psychodynamic therapy). The integration of theory is interesting, as little as I know about it. But I think the old school psychoanalyictic theories are still behind the clinical views of practice despite the integration. That's a sign of a good doctor too, willing to change based upon new research and new methods. But I would guess one's training and education does stick with them.
Some have implied that transference and the attachment, especially at the level I experienced it, is unhealthy; both here and what I've seen on other support forums, reseach papers, mental health blogs, etc.; perhaps I mixed up something you said with that of someone else.
The quick/intense attachment was due to trusting him 100%, the safety I felt with him, the immediate sense of connection due to something unrealated, his skill level, and my decision to quit carrying the burden of my medical care and mental health issues, but rather, this time, allow myself to let it go - with complete faith that another human being, a gifted doctor, and this individual in particular could take over that burden and heal me as I see it.
How many patients new to this therapy like me, are going to view a stranger, an analyst in blank state, in such a way? To me, it explains everything. If I did not already have preconceived notions of him, I most likely would have thought the whole thing was strange and uncomfortable, and never would have been allow myself to trust him, allow my defense mechanisms to melt, expose my unconscious to this person - after seeing that blank state behavior-and he is very good at it. I mean I read people all the time and his eyes revealed nothing. That posture and body language certainly would have taken away my instinctual feelings of trust had I not had my preconceived notions about this doctor, and things that were reaffirmed during our first meeting by his professionalism and approach.
There's a story behind it that I don't want to post right now, but the connection I had with him stems from my belief system, perhaps a little magical thinking and spirituality. Did you ever encounter an individual who left a moving, lasting impression upon you? Did you ever have feelings that something is just "meant to be"? I also don't think anyone can deny that in many professions, there are truly gifted, inspiring, and dedicated people who are set apart from others. He is one of those people. I have met very few in my lifetime. I really think there are some doctors out there with a natural disposition of true compassion and a natural gift for healing. There are way more who get into the field for the wrong reasons. It's like that.
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 23:02:04
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines, posted by Sigismund on June 18, 2009, at 17:03:47
"My experience, and also the experience of some others, was that the right kind of psychodynamic therapist could create attachment, or the conditions for it, remarkably quickly."
Sigismund--Can you elaborate on this? Curious..
Posted by Sigismund on June 18, 2009, at 23:51:02
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines » Sigismund, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 23:02:04
>"My experience, and also the experience of some others, was that the right kind of psychodynamic therapist could create attachment, or the conditions for it, remarkably quickly."
>Sigismund--Can you elaborate on this?
I'd like to be able to, but it is so long ago now that I don't remember the details. We started on 3 times a week and within a few months were at 5. I liked what you said in another post about how easily attachment sometimes forms (I think?). Anyway a friend went to this same therapist and had a similar experience in the first couple of sessions. It was fairly psychoanalytic in that boundaries were very firm and I knew almost nothing about her (the therapist), in the sense of facts about her. I suppose they have their ways of doing this ie creating a sense of significance. I had to remind myself many times that what I was going through was nothing like a social interchange. I kept going forever, because that is my nature. Well, not forever, but 14 years or was it longer? It's more than 20 years ago now.
Posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 1:37:13
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines » garnet71, posted by Sigismund on June 18, 2009, at 23:51:02
thanks. I am starting to feel traumatized by this whole attachment thing. I don't know how to deal with these needy feelings and wonder why he waited to the very end of the session to tell me he was referring me out, after telling me he already decided upon it after the end of last visit.
I told him first thing about this attachment. He was acting very strange, said he wanted the rest of my history but acted like he was not interested, unlike the last 2 times. Repeating questions strangely, major questions/life milestones I think he already knew the answers to, when before he was very quick and sharp, remembering details. Unless he wss just reassesing my answers to see if my answers were same as when I last told him since I was in a state of anxiety when I arrived. who knows what other resons could be behind that. And it makes me wonder why he said I accused him of manipulating me, when I did not say that. I just don't know how these doctors operate, i mean, it seems like everything is manipulation in some way. I was reading some analyst journals, and that's basically what the whole therapy is. I don't have a problem with those concepts, just with the way this was handled the more I think about it.
It just seems odd he would tell me right before i left, 5 mins before session end, rather than tell me at the beginning--when he could have explained what happened and told me how to cope with it. He's right on schedule by the exact minute, start end, etc. And there was a patient waiting because I kept him 2 mintues and he said something about it when i was upset.
Surely in his 30 plus years of practice he's encountered such things. It's really affecting me and I haven't been able to sleep. I called and left him another message, asking for advice on how to deal with this.
I've had 4 therapists over the years. Called them for things other than scheduling issues not more than 3 times total for crises/emotional upset over 8 years. Once when my sis had a breakdown, once when in emotional stress w/ex bf and I don't remember why the other time.
I've already called this doctor 3 times for emotional distress and I've only known him 3 weeks.
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 1:39:36
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me, posted by emmanuel98 on June 17, 2009, at 21:14:21
I have to say I agree with emmanuel, I have been in therapy with my pdoc for almost 2 years and he is psychoanalysist and I don't have transference yet. I just started trusting him. I cancelled this week and was relieved. He knew. He knows I still have boundaries that must be breached.
I respect him though. And I am slowly trusting him. But there is still so much I just cant tell him.
Even when I was going three times a week I was distant. But then I have a dissociative disorder.
emotions I have issues with in general.
rsk
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 12:56:45
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines » Sigismund, posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 1:37:13
Oh, garnet, see, this is why I want to respond by gently suggesting other therapies. But I won't. You don't want it. Can I just suggest that *someday*, if this doesn't work out for you, you think of DBT? It didn't sound to me, in our conversations, as though you've ever had the chance to try it. I think of DBT immediately when I hear expressed needy feelings, easy attachment (another way to put it is idolization--another framework would say that). A lot of people think DBT is for Borderline Personality Disorder only and I want to say that that's not true, at all. Even Birdsong elsewhere mentioned all the things DBT has been found to be good for, including PTSD.
When you mention manipulation--that's exactly what I'm talking about in my criticisms of the approach.
But I'm going to go up and over my bias and just suggest that you give it a try with the new person (you are, right?). Nothing is for ever, and you can at least try it and see if it works for you.
I support you no matter what. Wonderful you. ~Amelia
> thanks. I am starting to feel traumatized by this whole attachment thing. I don't know how to deal with these needy feelings and wonder why he waited to the very end of the session to tell me he was referring me out, after telling me he already decided upon it after the end of last visit.
>
> I told him first thing about this attachment. He was acting very strange, said he wanted the rest of my history but acted like he was not interested, unlike the last 2 times. Repeating questions strangely, major questions/life milestones I think he already knew the answers to, when before he was very quick and sharp, remembering details. Unless he wss just reassesing my answers to see if my answers were same as when I last told him since I was in a state of anxiety when I arrived. who knows what other resons could be behind that. And it makes me wonder why he said I accused him of manipulating me, when I did not say that. I just don't know how these doctors operate, i mean, it seems like everything is manipulation in some way. I was reading some analyst journals, and that's basically what the whole therapy is. I don't have a problem with those concepts, just with the way this was handled the more I think about it.
>
> It just seems odd he would tell me right before i left, 5 mins before session end, rather than tell me at the beginning--when he could have explained what happened and told me how to cope with it. He's right on schedule by the exact minute, start end, etc. And there was a patient waiting because I kept him 2 mintues and he said something about it when i was upset.
>
> Surely in his 30 plus years of practice he's encountered such things. It's really affecting me and I haven't been able to sleep. I called and left him another message, asking for advice on how to deal with this.
>
> I've had 4 therapists over the years. Called them for things other than scheduling issues not more than 3 times total for crises/emotional upset over 8 years. Once when my sis had a breakdown, once when in emotional stress w/ex bf and I don't remember why the other time.
>
> I've already called this doctor 3 times for emotional distress and I've only known him 3 weeks.
Posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 19:42:09
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines » garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 12:56:45
Hey there Amelia.
First-this analyst did NOT mention psychotic symptoms; that was me thinking about it....I did ask him if that was in his thoughts and he said absolutely not.
So he calls me back this morning with a bit of strange behavior. He has this 'thing' that I accused him of manipulating me--he said this twice, again, on the phone. I said in repsonse "again, I want to make this clear, I did not say you were manipulating me...". I never used that word. Now, if you think about it, much of this therapy IS about mind manipulation. The doctor does techniques intentionally to bring about certain reactions and effects. That's not the point though. I like the techniques because for me, they provide lots of insight. HOWEVER
Now that the childlike emotions have left me, the 'adult' me is very uncomfortable with what has transpired. I am totally comfortable with the dynamics that go on in this therapy--BUT I am not comfortable with how he handled the termination of our relationship--which was not part of the therapy (unless it is and i don't know it-sending me to this female analyst).
They way he handled my departure, in my opinion, was cruel and unprofessional. It was right before it was time to leave our session (why not at the beginning???). There was absoltely no reason to not tell me at the beginning of the session-he sat acting strange until it was time to leave. I said nothing unusual after telling him about the attachment right up front, just a couple of things about my history similar to history before.
Towards the end, when he initially told me he was referring me out-it took my breath away-I can't really describe all the emotions. I've never consciously felt emotions like that before. It was the strangest feeling....I was in a state of childlike trauma, in my childlike mind that resulted from the transference and attachment. I rambled for 5 minutes, pulling on my shirt sleeves, squirming, confused, crying, acting all shocked, he said again I needed long term treatment, his age, etc. Well, he just then said another patient was waiting and that I had to go--while i was still in this childlike state of trauma!
He didn't explain anything-what happened, how to deal with this, cope, no empathy or sympathy-very cold. Maybe i am overreacting, but we had lots of time to discuss it if he had not waited till the end. And no comfort or direction. He was cold, and acting strange the whole time--but no blank screen.
The issue is, I had called him back later and wanted to know what happened. I just think he should give me an explanation for: what happened/why I ended up in that state/how, why he thinks I attached like that (I told him it was my preconceived strong trust and faith in him), why he used techniques to induce the transference and my regression if he was 'consulting' me; basically--what happened. I just want the intellectual explanation of what happened, why, and what I should do now and how to deal with it. Nothing. He gave nothing. He said "yes, it was a little strange, wasn't it" duh. Like in decades of practice, he never saw someone who attached, longed for him like father/daughter, and told him they craved his reassurance like i told him...That's all i want was an explanation, so I could understand, process this, and deal with it accordingly. Why is so adamant about refusing to let me know what happened to me?
He acted just like a narcissist would have when inflicting pain on me-cold, no empathy, no concern at all, denying he had any role in it, and projection-he said twice on the phone today I accused him of manipulating me. I did not; i merely said he encouraged the transference (and this is a fact he used techniques which do so). His behavior was just too similar to how a narcissist reacts-putting the blame on me, words in my mouth, etcd. I do not think he is a narcissist; maybe he never deviates from the cold therapy stance, but the projection thing was too wiered. Again, this was not therapy and he was totally different from the first time I spoke with him.
BUT it has triggered PTSD anxiety from past situations where narcissists were very cruel while I was in a state of shock, trauma, or pain. I was crying in my classes today, major chest pains, etc, with reoccuring thoughts of the trauma, basically the PTSD type of anxiety. I picked up the scripts today--he gave me way more xanax than I told him i take. I merely asked for a refill of what the last pdoc had given me. He wrote down the exact scripts i was taking, and i verbally confirmed so this was no mistake.
I don't think that is too much to ask for-a rational explanation for the whole thing so I can understand it, process it, and get over it. Why couldn't he explain this to me? We've talked on the phone several times-but he won' tell me anything. Just tells me its important I tell new analyst everything. duh. why wouldn't I? i told this guy everything, and even let him into my unconsciouness.
I called one of my former therapists now and left her a message-i need support and understanding of what the hell happened. I'm going to ask her what she thinks of all this. I took some xanax so I'm ok now, but all day i was in a state of distress over this. It's not the loss/child-attachment thing that is upsetting me now though-I feel that has faded. Its his reaction to my trauma. It doesn't seem right. I am wondering if HE has issues-that maybe someone else in the past had this type of attachment for him, and that something bad came out of it. I would totally understand if that is the case because he would have to step aside from trreating me if he had these feelings. It would be a conflict of interest, in nontherapy terms. But what's with not being straight up? Are most analysts like that? It's obvious I'm capable of understanding medical terminology from how we converse.
I don't know about this. I love this type of therapy, but I'm at the point now where I can never trust another mental health professional ever again. I can't let someone have control over me like that. Psychoanalysis is some powerful stuff. I'm going to talk to his colleague next week during our appt. I'm going to ask her to explain this to me. I hope she does. But I think I am going to discontinue this type of therapy--only because I just don't trust anyone anymore with that power over me. Not after I totally divulged my trust in this doctor, and he hurt me with the way he reacted to our relationship termination, knowing how intese that attachment is and can be. Maybe something good will come out of the whole thing. I just don't want to f*ck*ng deal with PTSD anxiety anymore and find it now almost unimaginable to trust another psychoanalyst with the potential to do damaging stuff to my unconsciousness.
Posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 19:44:24
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 19:42:09
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 19:51:42
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 19:42:09
dear ((((garnet)))) I am so sorry for your distress. I can see how this interaction would be so difficult and so incredibly triggering. I have been dealt with badly by people in the mental health profession, and I know how hurtful it can be. We expect support and caring, we expect to be treated like thinking, feeling human beings. Are you safe tonight? I know you said you took a Xanax PRN--are you going to be okay? Can I suggest that you do some things to put this aside for awhile? Take a long bath with some nice soap bubbles, if that feels safe to you. Also, for anxiety and panic attacks, laying down or sitting with weighted blankets can help you get through a rough spot. Try to focus on the sensations, whether you are taking a bath or sitting with blankets: focus on what the fabric feels like, describe it to yourself too, so that you are grounding yourself and not thinking about the painful experience you've had. Focus on the weight, the touch. If you are in the bath, and using scented bubbles, focus on the scents, and describe those. Say these things outloud, as in: "the blankets are heavy. the fabric is nubby. this feels like shell." When you start to feel panicky, try to do something soothing that uses one of the five senses, and describe outloud what the sense feels like, what you are hearing/tasting/touching/seeing/smelling.
please let me know how you are.... hugs, amelia
> Hey there Amelia.
>
> First-this analyst did NOT mention psychotic symptoms; that was me thinking about it....I did ask him if that was in his thoughts and he said absolutely not.
>
> So he calls me back this morning with a bit of strange behavior. He has this 'thing' that I accused him of manipulating me--he said this twice, again, on the phone. I said in repsonse "again, I want to make this clear, I did not say you were manipulating me...". I never used that word. Now, if you think about it, much of this therapy IS about mind manipulation. The doctor does techniques intentionally to bring about certain reactions and effects. That's not the point though. I like the techniques because for me, they provide lots of insight. HOWEVER
>
> Now that the childlike emotions have left me, the 'adult' me is very uncomfortable with what has transpired. I am totally comfortable with the dynamics that go on in this therapy--BUT I am not comfortable with how he handled the termination of our relationship--which was not part of the therapy (unless it is and i don't know it-sending me to this female analyst).
>
> They way he handled my departure, in my opinion, was cruel and unprofessional. It was right before it was time to leave our session (why not at the beginning???). There was absoltely no reason to not tell me at the beginning of the session-he sat acting strange until it was time to leave. I said nothing unusual after telling him about the attachment right up front, just a couple of things about my history similar to history before.
>
> Towards the end, when he initially told me he was referring me out-it took my breath away-I can't really describe all the emotions. I've never consciously felt emotions like that before. It was the strangest feeling....I was in a state of childlike trauma, in my childlike mind that resulted from the transference and attachment. I rambled for 5 minutes, pulling on my shirt sleeves, squirming, confused, crying, acting all shocked, he said again I needed long term treatment, his age, etc. Well, he just then said another patient was waiting and that I had to go--while i was still in this childlike state of trauma!
>
> He didn't explain anything-what happened, how to deal with this, cope, no empathy or sympathy-very cold. Maybe i am overreacting, but we had lots of time to discuss it if he had not waited till the end. And no comfort or direction. He was cold, and acting strange the whole time--but no blank screen.
>
> The issue is, I had called him back later and wanted to know what happened. I just think he should give me an explanation for: what happened/why I ended up in that state/how, why he thinks I attached like that (I told him it was my preconceived strong trust and faith in him), why he used techniques to induce the transference and my regression if he was 'consulting' me; basically--what happened. I just want the intellectual explanation of what happened, why, and what I should do now and how to deal with it. Nothing. He gave nothing. He said "yes, it was a little strange, wasn't it" duh. Like in decades of practice, he never saw someone who attached, longed for him like father/daughter, and told him they craved his reassurance like i told him...That's all i want was an explanation, so I could understand, process this, and deal with it accordingly. Why is so adamant about refusing to let me know what happened to me?
>
> He acted just like a narcissist would have when inflicting pain on me-cold, no empathy, no concern at all, denying he had any role in it, and projection-he said twice on the phone today I accused him of manipulating me. I did not; i merely said he encouraged the transference (and this is a fact he used techniques which do so). His behavior was just too similar to how a narcissist reacts-putting the blame on me, words in my mouth, etcd. I do not think he is a narcissist; maybe he never deviates from the cold therapy stance, but the projection thing was too wiered. Again, this was not therapy and he was totally different from the first time I spoke with him.
>
> BUT it has triggered PTSD anxiety from past situations where narcissists were very cruel while I was in a state of shock, trauma, or pain. I was crying in my classes today, major chest pains, etc, with reoccuring thoughts of the trauma, basically the PTSD type of anxiety. I picked up the scripts today--he gave me way more xanax than I told him i take. I merely asked for a refill of what the last pdoc had given me. He wrote down the exact scripts i was taking, and i verbally confirmed so this was no mistake.
>
> I don't think that is too much to ask for-a rational explanation for the whole thing so I can understand it, process it, and get over it. Why couldn't he explain this to me? We've talked on the phone several times-but he won' tell me anything. Just tells me its important I tell new analyst everything. duh. why wouldn't I? i told this guy everything, and even let him into my unconsciouness.
>
> I called one of my former therapists now and left her a message-i need support and understanding of what the hell happened. I'm going to ask her what she thinks of all this. I took some xanax so I'm ok now, but all day i was in a state of distress over this. It's not the loss/child-attachment thing that is upsetting me now though-I feel that has faded. Its his reaction to my trauma. It doesn't seem right. I am wondering if HE has issues-that maybe someone else in the past had this type of attachment for him, and that something bad came out of it. I would totally understand if that is the case because he would have to step aside from trreating me if he had these feelings. It would be a conflict of interest, in nontherapy terms. But what's with not being straight up? Are most analysts like that? It's obvious I'm capable of understanding medical terminology from how we converse.
>
> I don't know about this. I love this type of therapy, but I'm at the point now where I can never trust another mental health professional ever again. I can't let someone have control over me like that. Psychoanalysis is some powerful stuff. I'm going to talk to his colleague next week during our appt. I'm going to ask her to explain this to me. I hope she does. But I think I am going to discontinue this type of therapy--only because I just don't trust anyone anymore with that power over me. Not after I totally divulged my trust in this doctor, and he hurt me with the way he reacted to our relationship termination, knowing how intese that attachment is and can be. Maybe something good will come out of the whole thing. I just don't want to f*ck*ng deal with PTSD anxiety anymore and find it now almost unimaginable to trust another psychoanalyst with the potential to do damaging stuff to my unconsciousness.
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 19:55:27
In reply to I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-( » garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 19:51:42
garnet, a really good one too is to take something out of the freezer and put it against your skin. feel what that feels like, describing it to yourself. let it melt, and feel what that feels like too.
I'm not trying to ignore the issues, very weighty ones you're dealing with, but you sound highly triggered right now, and I just want you to get to a place of calm and clarity, taking a break for awhile from all this...
please, please, take care, dear garnet.
> dear ((((garnet)))) I am so sorry for your distress. I can see how this interaction would be so difficult and so incredibly triggering. I have been dealt with badly by people in the mental health profession, and I know how hurtful it can be. We expect support and caring, we expect to be treated like thinking, feeling human beings. Are you safe tonight? I know you said you took a Xanax PRN--are you going to be okay? Can I suggest that you do some things to put this aside for awhile? Take a long bath with some nice soap bubbles, if that feels safe to you. Also, for anxiety and panic attacks, laying down or sitting with weighted blankets can help you get through a rough spot. Try to focus on the sensations, whether you are taking a bath or sitting with blankets: focus on what the fabric feels like, describe it to yourself too, so that you are grounding yourself and not thinking about the painful experience you've had. Focus on the weight, the touch. If you are in the bath, and using scented bubbles, focus on the scents, and describe those. Say these things outloud, as in: "the blankets are heavy. the fabric is nubby. this feels like shell." When you start to feel panicky, try to do something soothing that uses one of the five senses, and describe outloud what the sense feels like, what you are hearing/tasting/touching/seeing/smelling.
>
> please let me know how you are.... hugs, amelia
>
> > Hey there Amelia.
> >
> > First-this analyst did NOT mention psychotic symptoms; that was me thinking about it....I did ask him if that was in his thoughts and he said absolutely not.
> >
> > So he calls me back this morning with a bit of strange behavior. He has this 'thing' that I accused him of manipulating me--he said this twice, again, on the phone. I said in repsonse "again, I want to make this clear, I did not say you were manipulating me...". I never used that word. Now, if you think about it, much of this therapy IS about mind manipulation. The doctor does techniques intentionally to bring about certain reactions and effects. That's not the point though. I like the techniques because for me, they provide lots of insight. HOWEVER
> >
> > Now that the childlike emotions have left me, the 'adult' me is very uncomfortable with what has transpired. I am totally comfortable with the dynamics that go on in this therapy--BUT I am not comfortable with how he handled the termination of our relationship--which was not part of the therapy (unless it is and i don't know it-sending me to this female analyst).
> >
> > They way he handled my departure, in my opinion, was cruel and unprofessional. It was right before it was time to leave our session (why not at the beginning???). There was absoltely no reason to not tell me at the beginning of the session-he sat acting strange until it was time to leave. I said nothing unusual after telling him about the attachment right up front, just a couple of things about my history similar to history before.
> >
> > Towards the end, when he initially told me he was referring me out-it took my breath away-I can't really describe all the emotions. I've never consciously felt emotions like that before. It was the strangest feeling....I was in a state of childlike trauma, in my childlike mind that resulted from the transference and attachment. I rambled for 5 minutes, pulling on my shirt sleeves, squirming, confused, crying, acting all shocked, he said again I needed long term treatment, his age, etc. Well, he just then said another patient was waiting and that I had to go--while i was still in this childlike state of trauma!
> >
> > He didn't explain anything-what happened, how to deal with this, cope, no empathy or sympathy-very cold. Maybe i am overreacting, but we had lots of time to discuss it if he had not waited till the end. And no comfort or direction. He was cold, and acting strange the whole time--but no blank screen.
> >
> > The issue is, I had called him back later and wanted to know what happened. I just think he should give me an explanation for: what happened/why I ended up in that state/how, why he thinks I attached like that (I told him it was my preconceived strong trust and faith in him), why he used techniques to induce the transference and my regression if he was 'consulting' me; basically--what happened. I just want the intellectual explanation of what happened, why, and what I should do now and how to deal with it. Nothing. He gave nothing. He said "yes, it was a little strange, wasn't it" duh. Like in decades of practice, he never saw someone who attached, longed for him like father/daughter, and told him they craved his reassurance like i told him...That's all i want was an explanation, so I could understand, process this, and deal with it accordingly. Why is so adamant about refusing to let me know what happened to me?
> >
> > He acted just like a narcissist would have when inflicting pain on me-cold, no empathy, no concern at all, denying he had any role in it, and projection-he said twice on the phone today I accused him of manipulating me. I did not; i merely said he encouraged the transference (and this is a fact he used techniques which do so). His behavior was just too similar to how a narcissist reacts-putting the blame on me, words in my mouth, etcd. I do not think he is a narcissist; maybe he never deviates from the cold therapy stance, but the projection thing was too wiered. Again, this was not therapy and he was totally different from the first time I spoke with him.
> >
> > BUT it has triggered PTSD anxiety from past situations where narcissists were very cruel while I was in a state of shock, trauma, or pain. I was crying in my classes today, major chest pains, etc, with reoccuring thoughts of the trauma, basically the PTSD type of anxiety. I picked up the scripts today--he gave me way more xanax than I told him i take. I merely asked for a refill of what the last pdoc had given me. He wrote down the exact scripts i was taking, and i verbally confirmed so this was no mistake.
> >
> > I don't think that is too much to ask for-a rational explanation for the whole thing so I can understand it, process it, and get over it. Why couldn't he explain this to me? We've talked on the phone several times-but he won' tell me anything. Just tells me its important I tell new analyst everything. duh. why wouldn't I? i told this guy everything, and even let him into my unconsciouness.
> >
> > I called one of my former therapists now and left her a message-i need support and understanding of what the hell happened. I'm going to ask her what she thinks of all this. I took some xanax so I'm ok now, but all day i was in a state of distress over this. It's not the loss/child-attachment thing that is upsetting me now though-I feel that has faded. Its his reaction to my trauma. It doesn't seem right. I am wondering if HE has issues-that maybe someone else in the past had this type of attachment for him, and that something bad came out of it. I would totally understand if that is the case because he would have to step aside from trreating me if he had these feelings. It would be a conflict of interest, in nontherapy terms. But what's with not being straight up? Are most analysts like that? It's obvious I'm capable of understanding medical terminology from how we converse.
> >
> > I don't know about this. I love this type of therapy, but I'm at the point now where I can never trust another mental health professional ever again. I can't let someone have control over me like that. Psychoanalysis is some powerful stuff. I'm going to talk to his colleague next week during our appt. I'm going to ask her to explain this to me. I hope she does. But I think I am going to discontinue this type of therapy--only because I just don't trust anyone anymore with that power over me. Not after I totally divulged my trust in this doctor, and he hurt me with the way he reacted to our relationship termination, knowing how intese that attachment is and can be. Maybe something good will come out of the whole thing. I just don't want to f*ck*ng deal with PTSD anxiety anymore and find it now almost unimaginable to trust another psychoanalyst with the potential to do damaging stuff to my unconsciousness.
>
>
Posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 20:04:37
In reply to I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-( » garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 19:51:42
Thanks sweetie, but all i have is this pile of books and papers..(homework). I've only slept about 4 hrs since this happened Wed. I just don't understand why a doctor could just not explain to me what happened, in a normal discussion, rather than sidestepping the issue. He just tells me to talk to the new analyst. I'm not letting her do that blank screen sh*t. I'm just going to ask her to explain all this to me. I
I've looked up some psychoanalyst journals and there are various elements of attachment therory, each person classified into one type or another (not meaning attachment w/doctor but with their parents).
Its so hard to find stuff in those journals because I don't know what search terms to use and there are tons. Though they are not accessible by googling, i have to connect to university servers to find stuff.
thanks for your concern Amelia!
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 21:38:14
In reply to Re: I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-( » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 20:04:37
hi garnet, as I recall, there's secure attachment, ambivalent/insecure attachment, and avoidant/insecure attachment. But reading about this stuff can be really triggering. Attachment theory, I admit, is extremely interesting. There was a 20-year longitudinal study on the effect of attachment published in a book called The Development of the Person: The Minnesota Study of Risk and Adaptation from Birth to Adulthood. The one thing I dislike about attachment theory is the emphasis on the mother-child dyad. I think the father-child dyad can be as important, but is not studied in attachment theory. So it can be a bit of "blame the mom"--why I like feminist amendments to psychodynamic. Anyhow, I hope that helps--but please do be careful with the triggering stuff, OK?
Posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 22:55:33
In reply to Re: I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-( » garnet71, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 21:38:14
Thanks, Dear. I had already read all about that. Now I understand it more, well it allows for more understanding of the situation from his perspective.
The attachment I had really had less to do with those dynamics and more to do with deciding to trust and have total faith in another person. I had strong feelings before I even met him.
I just wanted to once in my life, surrender the burden of my somewhat obsessivley trying to heal myself, facilitate my own well being to that of a skilled mental health professional.
I think I'll resort back to my self-help and inspiration books, and my own medication decisions.
I've had so many less than favorable experiences with psychiatrists, i thought once, one time, i'd let go and trust someone unconditionally, let go of all my inhibitions.
Never again.
Posted by BirdSong on June 20, 2009, at 16:30:23
In reply to Re: I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-(, posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 22:55:33
I would like to suggest you review attachment strategies as I mentioned above for both children and adults. There are differences.
Children's attachment strategies include: secure, avoidant, ambivalent, and disorganized/disoriented.
Avoidant, ambivalent are insecure attachment strategies, BUT, they along with secure are considered "organized" attachments styles. They are predictable.
A fourth attachment strategy was discovered in the 1980s but has a huge implication for understanding abused children and adult survivors. In children with disorganized attachment strategy, we see a complete breakdown and unpredictability in the normal attachment process. Because of abuse, the parent becomes both feared and sought after, which creates this disorganized style. Behaviorally, children act confused, they will freeze, they will do acts that try to avoid parents like twirling, moving their fingers in the air, rocking, they may look like they are in another world....but at other times children will begin acting as the parents (role reversal) such as taking care of siblings, or actually start caring for their parents.If you ask many survivors of abuse, they can recall engaging in behaviors like this. But still wanting to be soothed by their parents.
Thus, you can see where the "push-pull" behaviors that occur in therapy between the therapist and many abused clients develops from...it was part of the attachment strategy.
Some child psychologists consider this a "special phenomenon" related to abuse and not an attachment strategy, BUT with the large number of abused children (and adult survivors), this disorganized style is quite common and generally accepted at the fourth strategy, today.
It has many implications for understanding the impact of childhood abuse on adults interpersonal relationships and behaviors.
As for adults....Adults attachment styles include: secure, anxious-preoccupied, fearful-avoidant, and dismissive-avoidant.While we cannot say that infant/child attachment strategies are identical to adult attachment styles, research has shown that early attachment strategies can help predict patterns of behavior in adulthood. There have been numerous studies conducted evaluating one's relationship with parents and the ability to have a secure romantic relationship.
Good luck with your new analyst, if you are still going.
Posted by yellowbird01 on June 20, 2009, at 19:56:02
In reply to Attachment Syles .. for garnet, posted by BirdSong on June 20, 2009, at 16:30:23
http://psychology.about.com/od/loveandattraction/ss/attachmentstyle.htm
An interesting article with further information on attachment styles if anyone is interested.
Posted by gobbledygook on June 20, 2009, at 20:21:15
In reply to Attachment Syles .. for garnet, posted by BirdSong on June 20, 2009, at 16:30:23
Posted by BirdSong on June 20, 2009, at 21:00:43
In reply to Attachment Syles .. for garnet, posted by BirdSong on June 20, 2009, at 16:30:23
This is a wonderful video showing a child who displays a secure attachment strategy.
Note: it might trigger some distress in people because of the crying child, but if you can watch it, you can see the results of the secure attachment between mother and child....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTsewNrHUHU&feature=related
There are some very interesting things to notice in this video, especially the gaze of the child at the stranger, but not completely fearful or distressed; and the almost immediate calming once Mom has returned. Beautiful...
Unfortunately, the majority of clients in therapy were not able to develop secure attachment and continue with difficulties into adulthood.
Posted by gobbledygook on June 20, 2009, at 21:10:01
In reply to Re: I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-(, posted by garnet71 on June 19, 2009, at 22:55:33
Hi Garnet,
I'm sorry I don't have any further insights or knowledge to offer you.
But, I wanted you to know that I've been following your thread with care.
Whatever you decide is right for you...I'll continue to root for or you, Garnet.
Take care.Ava
Posted by garnet71 on June 20, 2009, at 21:20:50
In reply to Re: Attachment Syles .video of toddler with secure, posted by BirdSong on June 20, 2009, at 21:00:43
Thanks for the info. I have no time to read about this anymore, hopefully someone else can benefit from it :)
A former therapist and I discussed the situation today. She's a PhD, practices psychodynamics/Jung therapy, and knows a lot about this kind of stuff in addition to stuff about psychoanalysis. We talked about transference and attachment for a while; she said there are all different reasons for my reaction to this particular person and her knowledge pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. We also talked about a research article I had read that viewed the situation very negatively, but is only one part of of all the views and theories. I didn't give her his name, but told her his age/experience.
She said since I had such gains from this type of therapy that it would be a good idea to give the new analyst a try, and if it didn't work out to feel free to come back to her.
I felt bad telling her i was in another therapy, and said how much more insightful psychoanalysis was for me (I didn't mean it that way-i meant learning about my unconscious motives!), accidentally saying the word MORE (ugg). But I wanted to get her opinion on the situation which was very helpful.
Thanks for all the support-what a odd experience--I have never felt transference in my entire life, that i noticed. Now I notice I have felt that element before, though very subtle and with personal people rather than mental health professionals. I learned tons from it.
I've been researching, writing, solving since 8 this morning-it's where my focus needs to be! Too much to learn, too little time.
Posted by garnet71 on June 20, 2009, at 21:26:59
In reply to Re: I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-( » garnet71, posted by gobbledygook on June 20, 2009, at 21:10:01
Aww.thanks Ava :)
I'm ok now. It was just so confusing - everything - dealing with my unconsciousness for the first time and all. It was the right time, perhaps the wrong person to experience it with.
I learned so much from the experience. In a way, it took a bit from my self-esteem (creating self-doubt) but it always grows back.
Posted by wittgensteinz on June 24, 2009, at 20:27:52
In reply to Re: I'm so sorry for your distress, garnet :-( » gobbledygook, posted by garnet71 on June 20, 2009, at 21:26:59
Garnet,
I haven't been to babble for a long while. Anyway, I read you posts about the visits to the new pdoc and what came of it.
I feel so sorry for you - I can feel your disappointment and uncertainty.
Of course different people will have different opinions and different needs but I too can advocate the strength of psychoanalytic therapy (and feel a little protective when people assume because it is 'in decline' that therefore it is less relevant in relation to the short-term cognitive and behavioural therapy techniques).
I've benefitted greatly from seeing an analyst (psychoanalytic psychotherapy) for the last couple of years and have never for a moment regretted choosing this type of therapy.
I think something quite extraordinary happened in your case - this sudden and intense transference you describe. Transference is normal in this therapy (I'd say it's normal in all kinds of therapy but is regarded differently). However, it usually develops more gradually. In contrast, I remember feeling some degree of negative transference toward my analyst in the beginning. I remember asking him whether this was worrying as I knew it was irrational (I knew he didn't personally evoke those fears and distrust in me but rather represented to me something that did) and he said early on that he would watch it for a while - I suppose to see how I reacted and the issues that I presented with. A patient's initial transference reaction is an important observation. Later my transference changed for the positive - perhaps in part due to various subtle choices he made in my treatment.
I don't think in your case the therapist had any intention of hurting you or of bringing about such an extreme reaction. I imagine this is just his approach and although he sadly is unable to provide you with what you need this experience has shown you an approach to therapy that has differed from your other experiences.
If this is what you want, then why not go for it? Is it not worth scheduling one more appointment with this man to help you on your way to the right therapist and the right treatment for you? He seems to have gotten himself in a muddle about his references but he clearly has something to offer you in terms of his approach and his knowledge. If he is an analyst then he will likely be associated with an analytic institute. Can't you ask him to put you in contact with the institute or perhaps with an organisation in your area through which you can obtain a listing of all the practising male analysts and psychodynamic therapists?
Now you know what you are looking for, it's just a matter of finding the right person, the perfect match - and someone who will stay with you for the course of treatment - and that's something very important. Perhaps in the future you will look back fondly on those 2 sessions with this doctor as a critical turning point in your recovery. It's a step in a journey.
If you are unable to get further with this doctor then run a search and look up the psychoanalytic association in your state/country and get in touch with them for advise. Where I live, if you contact the institute they schedule a special assessment to see which form of analytic therapy is most appropriate and they will then put you in touch with a suitable analyst (or psychodynamic therapist). There's even one kind of analytic/psychodynamic therapy called 'transference-focused therapy', for example. They should also be able to provide you with a clearer idea of the spectrum of practising analysts - you have the very orthodox on-the-couch 4 times a week blank slate analysts but that is at the far end of the spectrum. Many analysts now see their patients sitting up twice or thrice weekly. Levels of disclosure vary too.
I want to wish you the best in finding the right therapist and I think the way you have dealt with the disappointment from your last visit to the pdoc is amazing - I felt your enthusiasm and amazement after the sessions you had with him and the feeling of finding the right one. Don't lose faith - there will be someone out there who can give you the therapy you want and will be in a position to stay with you for as long as you need him.
Witti
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