![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 17:41:13
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » Arrianna, posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 16:19:01
Very true Sebastian but you forgot also that people call into pharmacies posing as their own doctors' nurses just to get these pills~which is a crime in itself up to jail time or community service. Just look at what they sell in Mexico...........
> Pill addiction is a rapidly growing crime. People hold up and rob the pharmacy, doctor, dentist. The stuff is sold on the streets for big bucks. Probably some of the most expensive drugs. I know people who can't live without it even though they have never recived a prescription for it in their lives.
>
> Sebastian
Posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 17:59:26
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » galkeepinon, posted by Arrianna on September 5, 2003, at 0:46:06
Hey Arrianna, thanks for sharing your experience:-) I hear you, about the addict part. I think I have a tendency towards being an addict if I let it get out of control. The thing is, is that I never go looking for the drug. If it is presented to me and I have a headache and say I had a choice over Advil or Vicodin-I'd probably take the Vicodin depending on how bad my pain was and if I wanted the 'high' at that time-but I don't keep it in my house, and I don't take any now, so the answer would be sometimes. I don't believe in the 'either you are or your not' BS The last time I abused the Tylenol 3 was in April of this year~5 months ago, I haven't had a craving, haven't gone crazy because I can't 'get my hands on Vicodin!!!' and whatever, so until that happens again, I will re-think if I'm an addict again. My relationships and job and school are not affected by pain killers, never have been so that's something for me to look at too.
Addiction is a complex issue!
Oh yeah~I've heard stories of ER docs and nurses while on duty~giving themselves shots of Demerol just to get through their shifts, after all, who's going to know?! Also, on Dateline a doc got his licensed suspended for doing Coke on the job, but didn't get caught until after the fact AND crossed the border, got himself re-licensed, and AFTER he performed surgery on more than 100 people. What a world we live in eh? lol
I do know that I have a greater potential for addiction and I'm just glad that it didn't become any more of a problem for me for now...........
Have a good one:-)
> Hey Gal!
>
> Good to see you here. No, you're not alone with this.
>
> During my sobriety, about, oh, 3 years ago, I had a cyst removed. The doc gave me percocet for the pain. Well, I didn't really have much pain, but took it anyways because it was prescribed to me.
>
> Instantly, I felt "high"! I thought it was great-what I had been missing from not using. I finished the bottle even though the pain was almost non-existant. Proceeded to go back to the doc to get my stitches removed. Told him I still had pain and he happily gave me a refill.
>
> Until I finished that bottle, I would come home from work everynite excited to take my percocet and play video games or whatever. Even though the high was nice, it started doing the same things to me as my prior use of alcohol and drugs had done. After that bottle, I had no refills left. But, if I could have got my hands on more, well, let's not think about that.
>
> Pill addiction is a very real thing. I'm not sure if they're abused as much as alcohol and other drugs, yet just as harmful. I've heard that many nurses and doctors become addicted to pills because they're so accessible to them.
>
> But, are you an addict? Only you can answer that. In your post, you stated you have an addictive personality and with your history, I'd guess you'd have greater potential for addiction. But again, only you know. I'm just glad that it didn't become any more of a problem for you.
>
> "Post ya' later"
> Arrianna
>
> P.S. I will e-mail you. Smiles.
Posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 21:03:53
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » Arrianna, posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 17:59:26
I guess I can understand the addiction fueling your desigher to work!? I've done that for years! Only different. Started smoking pot taking acid, shrooms; sold the stuff to make money, very effective technique. Later I started getting real jobs, used the pot and alcohol as my driving force; smoked a pack of joints driving around my delivery truck, drank after work. Keep using the pot in other jobs just to get through the day. Eventualy I just gave up all the drugs, and stuck to my meds, and alcohol; This is how I got myself started in college. Finaly I gave up the alcohol, in excess. Just used my meds as the driving force. Thats what I do today, meds.. Unfortuanatly my other real driving force is ciggarettes, still can't give em up, I love what they do!
Seb
Posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 21:06:38
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » Sebastian, posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 17:41:13
I watch too much TV!....
____________________________________________
Very true Sebastian but you forgot also that people call into pharmacies posing as their own doctors' nurses just to get these pills~which is a crime in itself up to jail time or community service. Just look at what they sell in Mexico...........
> Pill addiction is a rapidly growing crime. People hold up and rob the pharmacy, doctor, dentist. The stuff is sold on the streets for big bucks. Probably some of the most expensive drugs. I know people who can't live without it even though they have never recived a prescription for it in their lives.
>
> Sebastian
Posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 22:22:24
In reply to Re: Drugs and Everything Is AOK......... » galkeepinon, posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 21:03:53
Hey Seb, I hear you!!! I didn't start smoking cigs til I was 29! Hated them my whole life~folks smoked~hated to be around it. Now I almost smoke 2 packs a day. And like you, still can't give em up, I love what they do too! Wonder 'what' that is?
I just know it is very relaxing for me and until I learn better ways of relaxing (and I've tried and know of a few) I guess I'll be killing my lungs. I write papers on the dangers of tobacco smoke, but I guess I won't take it seriously until I'm hooked up to a machine like the Marlboro man all fat and puffy~too bad so sad for me.
~That's Addiction!~
> I guess I can understand the addiction fueling your desigher to work!? I've done that for years! Only different. Started smoking pot taking acid, shrooms; sold the stuff to make money, very effective technique. Later I started getting real jobs, used the pot and alcohol as my driving force; smoked a pack of joints driving around my delivery truck, drank after work. Keep using the pot in other jobs just to get through the day. Eventualy I just gave up all the drugs, and stuck to my meds, and alcohol; This is how I got myself started in college. Finaly I gave up the alcohol, in excess. Just used my meds as the driving force. Thats what I do today, meds.. Unfortuanatly my other real driving force is ciggarettes, still can't give em up, I love what they do!
>
> Seb
Posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 22:28:08
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » galkeepinon, posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 21:06:38
Better to watch TV than do something illegal :-)
> I watch too much TV!....
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
> Very true Sebastian but you forgot also that people call into pharmacies posing as their own doctors' nurses just to get these pills~which is a crime in itself up to jail time or community service. Just look at what they sell in Mexico...........
>
>
> > Pill addiction is a rapidly growing crime. People hold up and rob the pharmacy, doctor, dentist. The stuff is sold on the streets for big bucks. Probably some of the most expensive drugs. I know people who can't live without it even though they have never recived a prescription for it in their lives.
> >
> > Sebastian
>
>
>
Posted by Sebastian on September 7, 2003, at 10:01:07
In reply to Re: Drugs and Everything Is AOK......... » Sebastian, posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 22:22:24
The only addiction, for me, why?
I have myself down to 7-8 cigs a day, though I still can't give those up?
No my lungs arn't as good as they were befor but I refuse to give it up?
I've quit many times: for 6-9 months, for 3 months, for anouther 3 months, gum, patch, Wellbutrin(I'm taking now with the 7-8 cig/day).
Most of the last 11-12 years I've been a smoker at approx 1/2 pack a day.
Anouther one of the forced addictions, a love hate relationship, just like my meds.
Sebastian
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 14:16:50
In reply to Re: Drugs and Everything Is AOK......... » galkeepinon, posted by Sebastian on September 7, 2003, at 10:01:07
I've only smoked occasionally, could smoke one, usually when at a smoky bar having a drink, and then leave it. Never developed an addiction to it, evidence of our various chemical makeups. But my husband has stopped and started up again 5 times since we've been together. He knows better, is into a very healthy lifestyle otherwise, but it has him in it's grip. He's a musician and plays at smoky bars and it's been too much of a struggle and distraction for him to resist when it's all around him. His promise to me of smoking 10 cigs max has steadily crept up and up. I don't know how many he's smoking now, and he often sneaks them, but I know it's well over 10. It's his life, his body, his health. Far be it from me to monitor him. I have my own weaknesses I'm working with. But I do have to object when his coughing frequently wakes me up during the night. It then becomes my problem as well. I feel compassion for him and wish he could quit because I want him around. It's supposedly more addicting than any other substance. Plus he 'enjoys a good cigarette' and tells me I don't have to worry, he's smoking the natural kind and he won't let it ruin his health. How we can deceive ourselves.
There was a man where I worked who loved his cigars. He bought the real expensive kind and when he wasn't out in the courtyard smoking he had one chomped between his teeth. Well, he was going through around $900/month and his teeth were brown and sticky, and he wore a groove in them from chomping all day. His complexion was yellowish grey, his skin exuded tobacco toxin stink and even though you supposedly don't inhale, he coughed up great wet junk. He was 45 but looked 65. His daughter was about to start college and he hardly had anything saved for her, having spent it on his cigars over the years.
He went on Wellbutrin determined to provide for his daughter. He went through hell and became somewhat psychotic during this period but was finally able to kick it. I don't know how he's doing anymore, but hope when she graduates he won't take it up again. I doubt if any of you who are smokers have it this bad, but the point is that he was able to give it up, but mainly because of his love for his daughter.
There seems to be an external reason that provides the huge push to quit and remain quit, because like I mentioned, we can fool ourselves and personal health reasons are easily ignored. It doesn't stop emphysemics who still smoke through holes in their throats. But sometimes self love can be that reason. Sure hope y'all find a way. No one has to tell you it's a nasty habit, for you as well as anyone in the general vicinity.
Posted by galkeepinon on September 7, 2003, at 23:00:15
In reply to Re: Drugs and Everything Is AOK......... » galkeepinon, posted by Sebastian on September 7, 2003, at 10:01:07
Hey at least you've tried to quit. I tried 2x I think once on New years Eve~~lasted until 12:05am. I heard somewhere many times that it takes smokers many tries to quit and often have success if they keep trying, not sure if it's true, just what I heard.
> I've quit many times: for 6-9 months, for 3 months, for anouther 3 months, gum, patch, Wellbutrin(I'm taking now with the 7-8 cig/day).
>
> Most of the last 11-12 years I've been a smoker at approx 1/2 pack a day.
>
> Anouther one of the forced addictions, a love hate relationship, just like my meds.
>
> Sebastian
Posted by galkeepinon on September 7, 2003, at 23:11:35
In reply to Ciggy-butts and Cee-gars, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 14:16:50
Hi Barbara, I like that.'Cee-gars' ;)
I admire you that you can pick up a cigarette and leave it. I'm that way with alcohol. When I socialize or when I wanna get drunk and have fun, I do, but I can take it or leave it.
The smokers' cough is sad~I hear my mom's a lot and it disheartens my family and I. But what can we do. Only the person can take control of their own health, you're right we can't 'monitor' them. I know I'm fooling myself and my health is being ignored by smoking these cancer sticks. I knew a lady who had to carry around a tank of oxygen because she had emphysema from smoking and thought to myself, if I don't quit, I could end up that way. I had a friend who developed blood clots in her legs and heart, weighed about 300 pounds and was told if she didn't quit smoking she woud be dead in a year. That year passed and she was still alive. Thank God. I don't know what happened to here as of late, but maybe she quit.
You talk about self-love......to me, I always thought self-love was selfish. When I see someone who portrays that quality I admire it, but I feel if I 'love' myself too much, I would be considered a b%$@# or selfish~I learned that growing up anyway. How can a person get past that~any ideas?
> I've only smoked occasionally, could smoke one, usually when at a smoky bar having a drink, and then leave it. Never developed an addiction to it, evidence of our various chemical makeups. But my husband has stopped and started up again 5 times since we've been together. He knows better, is into a very healthy lifestyle otherwise, but it has him in it's grip. He's a musician and plays at smoky bars and it's been too much of a struggle and distraction for him to resist when it's all around him. His promise to me of smoking 10 cigs max has steadily crept up and up. I don't know how many he's smoking now, and he often sneaks them, but I know it's well over 10. It's his life, his body, his health. Far be it from me to monitor him. I have my own weaknesses I'm working with. But I do have to object when his coughing frequently wakes me up during the night. It then becomes my problem as well. I feel compassion for him and wish he could quit because I want him around. It's supposedly more addicting than any other substance. Plus he 'enjoys a good cigarette' and tells me I don't have to worry, he's smoking the natural kind and he won't let it ruin his health. How we can deceive ourselves.
>
> There was a man where I worked who loved his cigars. He bought the real expensive kind and when he wasn't out in the courtyard smoking he had one chomped between his teeth. Well, he was going through around $900/month and his teeth were brown and sticky, and he wore a groove in them from chomping all day. His complexion was yellowish grey, his skin exuded tobacco toxin stink and even though you supposedly don't inhale, he coughed up great wet junk. He was 45 but looked 65. His daughter was about to start college and he hardly had anything saved for her, having spent it on his cigars over the years.
>
> He went on Wellbutrin determined to provide for his daughter. He went through hell and became somewhat psychotic during this period but was finally able to kick it. I don't know how he's doing anymore, but hope when she graduates he won't take it up again. I doubt if any of you who are smokers have it this bad, but the point is that he was able to give it up, but mainly because of his love for his daughter.
>
> There seems to be an external reason that provides the huge push to quit and remain quit, because like I mentioned, we can fool ourselves and personal health reasons are easily ignored. It doesn't stop emphysemics who still smoke through holes in their throats. But sometimes self love can be that reason. Sure hope y'all find a way. No one has to tell you it's a nasty habit, for you as well as anyone in the general vicinity.
Posted by galkeepinon on September 7, 2003, at 23:24:13
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » galkeepinon, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 15:34:55
Hey there:-) Yes, a new land lol. So, Vicodin and wine eh? 'Energy, focus and merriment' sums it up real well I believe. I hear ya! You knew a woman who rode her bike off a cliff to get some?! WOW! I honestly have never heard of anyone manufacturing 'accidents' to get the drug, but I guess that could relate to my example of patients posing as their doctor's nurses to pharmacies to get their 'fix'. Thank God I never went that far.
The book sounds very interesting, I'm going to check the bookstores this week.
It sounds as if the author may make sense in saying that there is no such thing as an addictive personality and that substance abuse is really a healthy striving of the psyche to dissociate from an intolerable condition, mainly lack of power, anxiety, and a general, I'll do what I want' attitude. I really can relate there. I TOTALLY agree that catching yourself in the craving can be an important opportunity to discover some deep seated issues which when worked through give abstaining a much better chance for success through understanding the powerful drives involved~BUT that is hard. Yep, I know, anything worth having, like release, freedom from bondage of self-destructiveness, etc. is hard work, and that's hard to hear, but I guesss if a person gets sick and tired of being 'sick and tired' then maybe there is hope in changing.
It sounds like you are doing pretty good at discovering your realization about why you always crave a drink when you do, I'm glad to hear that:-)
Keep up your attitude!
Best Wishes!
> Hi Gal,
> Here we are in a new land on this board. Oh, yes. Vicodin, yummmmm! For many years I'd have 1/2 pill every night with at least 1/2 bottle chardonnay (wellll, it got to be more like 1-1/2 pills and a whole bottle of chardonnay). This was my treat for the day. It did not stone me out at all, but gave me energy, focus and merriment. I enjoyed everything better. Definitely the focus. Parties were always so much more interesting on my little pick me up. I was interested in conversations, was relaxed, warm and charming. Loved that inner glow.
>
> I could be depressed, grouchy, whatever but could always rely on feeling better with Vicodin. Not alone, always with wine. The wine seemed to potentiate it, both together feeling like a different drug altogether. It's got to be the dopamine that my brain craves cause it sure likes those kind of things and the tipoff is the euphoria that's focussed and directed at the same time. Interestingly, without the Vicodin, if I had too much wine I could get manic. The Vic kept me grounded and relaxed.
>
> I never abused it past 2-3 pills very infrequently. But I still felt I was doing something wrong, the next day I'd always think 'I know this is an immediate pleasure, but not a good thing for me'. But I'd always succumb whenever I had it because the pull towards that pleasure was too tempting. I always had a supply around for one reason or other. One starts to manufacture 'accidents' to get some more. A woman I know confessed that she once rode her bike off a cliff to get some.
>
> The other thing, and the main thing that stopped it, was the stomach pain I was getting. After a while this got to be not worth the high. I can't say I went through any withdrawals, just dissapointment that I couldn't get back to that lovely euphoria on my own steam, just can't.
>
> As far as addiction and addictive personalities, I'm reading a really interesting book called "The Heart of Addiction" by Lance Dodes, MD. He stresses the difference between addiction and abuse and says that there is no such thing as an addictive personality and that substance abuse is really a healthy striving of the psyche to dissociate from an intolerable condition, mainly lack of power, anxiety, and a general 'f**ck you, I'll do what I want' attitude. He says that catching yourself in the craving can be an important opportunity to discover some deep seated issues which when worked through give abstaining a much better chance for success through understanding the powerful drives involved. I sure discovered a very powerful realization about why I always crave a drink right around 5:00pm through working with this. It knocked my socks off and since then when this craving arises, I understand it and don't have the compulsion to give into it. It's still tempting, but each time it arises, I'm getting better at discovering more about my driving issues and why I don't need the substance to displace it. The curiosity is becoming more alluring than the substance. I'm finding it more helpful than anything I've read/done to quit my substance abuse. But ohhhh, Vicodin, I'll always have special place for you in my heart ... - Barbara
>
>
Posted by Arrianna on September 10, 2003, at 12:33:43
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » Arrianna, posted by galkeepinon on September 6, 2003, at 17:59:26
Gal:
Sounds like you got control of it before it controlled you.
And yes!!!!!!! Addiction IS a complex issue!!! Oh, do I KNOW.
Arrianna
Posted by judy1 on September 10, 2003, at 16:34:47
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » galkeepinon, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 15:34:55
I ordered the book, I really liked the premise you described. Personally I do use opiates to help my depression, and while I do get physically addicted to them, I've never had a problem stopping them periodically. So I guess I don't see it as a problem since I don't do anything extraordinary to get them- and yes I've known people to stage accidents to get opiates. I take benzos too, and have a great pdoc who prescribes them for panic disorder and has never made me feel guilty. My view is that most meds are physically addictive (including SSRIs) and if you realize that you have to gradually taper them if you want to stop then it's not anything serious. I have tried most illicit drugs but never continued them, it was mostly a curiousity issue.
take care, judy
Posted by Festus on September 10, 2003, at 22:21:53
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » BarbaraCat, posted by judy1 on September 10, 2003, at 16:34:47
It don,t take much to figure out if you,re an addict or not.You can go through all the "yea,but what about blah,blah"and"but this book says that...",it,s just more baloney.Ask yourself these few questions:
1)Do you "anticipate"or get anxious if you go to the Dr.,s office with a crick in your neck or a back strain,waiting to see what He,s gonna give you "for pain"?
2)Do you peek in medicine cabinets when you go to someone,s house to visit and you need to use the John?
3)When someone you know get,s hurt or a tooth pulled,do you find yourself going to see"how they,re doin"and"did the doc give you anything for pain?"
4)Do you look forward to gettin a pain pill Rx filled or dread when it,s almost empty?
If you said yes to 1 or more of these questions....well,you get the idea.It is just one of those things.There are many folks who love Opiates.plain and simple.Is it something to be ashamed of?I don,t think so,until you begin to like them enough that you will do wrong to get your mits on some.I ain,t goin into no spill about that.The only really bad thing,when it,s all said and done....is that if you end up takin em for a long time and really build up a tolerance,what happens when you get sick or badly hurt and you REALLY NEED THEM,they won,t hardly do you any good!That scares me about it.Bless all of you, Festus
Posted by galkeepinon on September 11, 2003, at 0:34:29
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK........., posted by Festus on September 10, 2003, at 22:21:53
Hey Festus, thanks for sharing this:-)
Going into a friend's medicine cabinet???!! Never done that just out of plain privacy and respect.
But, I posted in an earlier post about telling my mother to ask the doc for Vicodin when she sprained her ankle earlier this year so when she was done I could have the rest.
I'm probably an addict.
Oops~~~~~I am an addict.
I admit it~I love opiates~Am I ashamed?~nope.
You make a good point here about building up tolerance and REALLY needing them someday.
> It don,t take much to figure out if you,re an addict or not.You can go through all the "yea,but what about blah,blah"and"but this book says that...",it,s just more baloney.Ask yourself these few questions:
> 1)Do you "anticipate"or get anxious if you go to the Dr.,s office with a crick in your neck or a back strain,waiting to see what He,s gonna give you "for pain"?
> 2)Do you peek in medicine cabinets when you go to someone,s house to visit and you need to use the John?
> 3)When someone you know get,s hurt or a tooth pulled,do you find yourself going to see"how they,re doin"and"did the doc give you anything for pain?"
> 4)Do you look forward to gettin a pain pill Rx filled or dread when it,s almost empty?
> If you said yes to 1 or more of these questions....well,you get the idea.It is just one of those things.There are many folks who love Opiates.plain and simple.Is it something to be ashamed of?I don,t think so,until you begin to like them enough that you will do wrong to get your mits on some.I ain,t goin into no spill about that.The only really bad thing,when it,s all said and done....is that if you end up takin em for a long time and really build up a tolerance,what happens when you get sick or badly hurt and you REALLY NEED THEM,they won,t hardly do you any good!That scares me about it.Bless all of you, Festus
Posted by steven landau on October 1, 2003, at 23:07:08
In reply to Vicodin and Everything Is AOK........., posted by galkeepinon on September 4, 2003, at 22:57:11
I just sent away for Vicodin from an internet site and I was amazed at how easy and fast and relatively cheap it was to get. Now, I am really enjoying it, but I have a few questions, and I was hoping somebody may have information.
1. the pills I got are called Hydrocodone/APAP 7.5/500mg. How much of these are aceteminophin (Tylenol)? I read that it is is very bad for your liver to take too much of that on a regular basis. I have been only doing two of the the vicodins each nite (with two glasses of white wine). Is this a health issue? Am I going to want to do more and more and then get addicted and be one of those people who sleep on the street? Is this stupid to be doing? I realize that I am a person who loves taking drugs, and I have been looking around for something that was safer than street drugs but still felt really good and was available. Now, this seems to meet all my criteria, but I am a little worried. Any advice?
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 2, 2003, at 1:16:48
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK........., posted by steven landau on October 1, 2003, at 23:07:08
Hi Steven,
I did 1-2 Vicondins and 2-3 glasses chardonnay almost every night for a long time, maybe 10 years or so. Sometimes the wine was more, sometimes less. I really enjoyed the feeling from it, a nice warm buzzy feeling. I remember coming home from work just beat, ready to do the couch potato rag, but then my little cocktail would brighten me up considerably. I got alot accomplished on it too, would clean the house, play piano, exercise, call friends, be in a much better mood. As long as I didn't overdo either one it didn't bother me much the next day. In fact, if I did drink more than my limit, the Vicodin helped to prevent the morning after effects. I never developed a jones for it and not much tolerance - stayed at the same level for all those years.I really don't know the ratio of the opiod to acetominophen, but you can bet that your liver is not too happy about the wine. In fact, if you're on any mood disorder meds or any other kind of meds, the liver has to work extra hard to metabolize them. If you stick to the amount of wine you mentioned it's not like you're on the fast path to cirhossis, but you definitely don't want to be imbibing more than that.
Now that I'm dealing with fibromyaligia I wish I had been a little more conscientious about liver health because I could use all the healing support I can get. I do take opiods now because of fibro pain, but I can't afford to combine them with wine any longer. This is too bad because this combo worked better than anything for depression and stress relief. The wine added an extra lovliness to it. Sigh...
The liver is overworked in general with the crappy lifestyles we subject it to, and once it gets compromised all systems are affected and we feel bad. In Chinese medicine and acupunture, the liver meridian is the one most implicated in mood disorders. The good news is that it heals quickly if in relatively good health and there are ways of caring for it. So, here's some friendly advice on what to take to minimize liver distress:
1. Milk thistle, or sillimarin herb. This is a very powerful herbal liver support that's being used in mainstream medicine to reverse liver damage. You can get it at most health food stores. Get the powdered herb in capsules rather than a hard pill. This may be the only thing you'll need, but if you want do more, read on.
2. L-methionine is an amino acid that helps to detox the liver. In fact, go to a good health store and ask for a good liver detox formula. It'll have most everything you need in the way of liver support. Get a good multivitamin while you're there. Alcohol and drugs deplete B and C vitamins.
3. SAM-e is a very potent liver detoxifier, along with being good for depression. It can switch bipolars to hypomania, but I, as a BP-II, have never experienced that. It's expensive, however. A good brand is Nature Made. You can get it at Costco for the best price. 400mg should be sufficient for liver care.
4. Recent research is finding that adding a very small dose of naltrexone prevents opiod receptors from up regulating, thereby preventing tolerance and addiction. Naltrexone in larger doses binds to opium receptors and prevents the high, but in smaller doses simply stops the replication of ever-increasing hungry little receptor mouths. It's a prescription item and so new that most docs won't know what you're talking about, but this would be the best way to truly prevent tolerance.
Another way is to not take it every night. Take a break, you can live without it for a few days, a week or longer. This will allow the receptors to down regulate and you'll enjoy the feeling much more when you resume. This also is a message to your greedy limbic mid-brain that you are in charge and will resolutely ignore any attempts to lure you into substance slavery. You have to be on top of that sneaky little bugger and not get to the point where you're higher reasoning cortex is bleary.
Hope you can manage to use it on a maintenance dose and continue to enjoy yourself in good health. BarbaraCat
> I just sent away for Vicodin from an internet site and I was amazed at how easy and fast and relatively cheap it was to get. Now, I am really enjoying it, but I have a few questions, and I was hoping somebody may have information.
> 1. the pills I got are called Hydrocodone/APAP 7.5/500mg. How much of these are aceteminophin (Tylenol)? I read that it is is very bad for your liver to take too much of that on a regular basis. I have been only doing two of the the vicodins each nite (with two glasses of white wine). Is this a health issue? Am I going to want to do more and more and then get addicted and be one of those people who sleep on the street? Is this stupid to be doing? I realize that I am a person who loves taking drugs, and I have been looking around for something that was safer than street drugs but still felt really good and was available. Now, this seems to meet all my criteria, but I am a little worried. Any advice?
>
>
Posted by steven landau on October 5, 2003, at 14:45:59
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » steven landau, posted by BarbaraCat on October 2, 2003, at 1:16:48
Thanks, Barbara, for the excellent advice. I am going to look into some of the ideas that you offered regarding liver health. By the way, in reading the message that I posted only a week ago, I noticed that I am already taking more Vicodin than what I said I was...I definitely see what you mean about tolerances. I will try your approach to stopping for a week or so to see if that resets the levels. I totally agree that the combination of Vicodin and wine does slow everything down nicely. I wouldn't say that I am doing housework, however, when I am on it, more likely just sitting and enjoying it, maybe watching a movie or reading. I am also, taking anti-depressants, fairly low dosages of Wellbutrin and Zoloft. I have been on these for about seven years, and it works well. I will try to contact you through this list if I have any further questions or need some more advice. I am reachable at sl@touchgraphic.com. Thanks again for the help, and good luck with your battles.
> Hi Steven,
> I did 1-2 Vicondins and 2-3 glasses chardonnay almost every night for a long time, maybe 10 years or so. Sometimes the wine was more, sometimes less. I really enjoyed the feeling from it, a nice warm buzzy feeling. I remember coming home from work just beat, ready to do the couch potato rag, but then my little cocktail would brighten me up considerably. I got alot accomplished on it too, would clean the house, play piano, exercise, call friends, be in a much better mood. As long as I didn't overdo either one it didn't bother me much the next day. In fact, if I did drink more than my limit, the Vicodin helped to prevent the morning after effects. I never developed a jones for it and not much tolerance - stayed at the same level for all those years.
>
> I really don't know the ratio of the opiod to acetominophen, but you can bet that your liver is not too happy about the wine. In fact, if you're on any mood disorder meds or any other kind of meds, the liver has to work extra hard to metabolize them. If you stick to the amount of wine you mentioned it's not like you're on the fast path to cirhossis, but you definitely don't want to be imbibing more than that.
>
> Now that I'm dealing with fibromyaligia I wish I had been a little more conscientious about liver health because I could use all the healing support I can get. I do take opiods now because of fibro pain, but I can't afford to combine them with wine any longer. This is too bad because this combo worked better than anything for depression and stress relief. The wine added an extra lovliness to it. Sigh...
>
> The liver is overworked in general with the crappy lifestyles we subject it to, and once it gets compromised all systems are affected and we feel bad. In Chinese medicine and acupunture, the liver meridian is the one most implicated in mood disorders. The good news is that it heals quickly if in relatively good health and there are ways of caring for it. So, here's some friendly advice on what to take to minimize liver distress:
>
> 1. Milk thistle, or sillimarin herb. This is a very powerful herbal liver support that's being used in mainstream medicine to reverse liver damage. You can get it at most health food stores. Get the powdered herb in capsules rather than a hard pill. This may be the only thing you'll need, but if you want do more, read on.
>
> 2. L-methionine is an amino acid that helps to detox the liver. In fact, go to a good health store and ask for a good liver detox formula. It'll have most everything you need in the way of liver support. Get a good multivitamin while you're there. Alcohol and drugs deplete B and C vitamins.
>
> 3. SAM-e is a very potent liver detoxifier, along with being good for depression. It can switch bipolars to hypomania, but I, as a BP-II, have never experienced that. It's expensive, however. A good brand is Nature Made. You can get it at Costco for the best price. 400mg should be sufficient for liver care.
>
> 4. Recent research is finding that adding a very small dose of naltrexone prevents opiod receptors from up regulating, thereby preventing tolerance and addiction. Naltrexone in larger doses binds to opium receptors and prevents the high, but in smaller doses simply stops the replication of ever-increasing hungry little receptor mouths. It's a prescription item and so new that most docs won't know what you're talking about, but this would be the best way to truly prevent tolerance.
>
> Another way is to not take it every night. Take a break, you can live without it for a few days, a week or longer. This will allow the receptors to down regulate and you'll enjoy the feeling much more when you resume. This also is a message to your greedy limbic mid-brain that you are in charge and will resolutely ignore any attempts to lure you into substance slavery. You have to be on top of that sneaky little bugger and not get to the point where you're higher reasoning cortex is bleary.
>
> Hope you can manage to use it on a maintenance dose and continue to enjoy yourself in good health. BarbaraCat
>
>
> > I just sent away for Vicodin from an internet site and I was amazed at how easy and fast and relatively cheap it was to get. Now, I am really enjoying it, but I have a few questions, and I was hoping somebody may have information.
> > 1. the pills I got are called Hydrocodone/APAP 7.5/500mg. How much of these are aceteminophin (Tylenol)? I read that it is is very bad for your liver to take too much of that on a regular basis. I have been only doing two of the the vicodins each nite (with two glasses of white wine). Is this a health issue? Am I going to want to do more and more and then get addicted and be one of those people who sleep on the street? Is this stupid to be doing? I realize that I am a person who loves taking drugs, and I have been looking around for something that was safer than street drugs but still felt really good and was available. Now, this seems to meet all my criteria, but I am a little worried. Any advice?
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 6, 2003, at 13:54:00
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK......... » BarbaraCat, posted by steven landau on October 5, 2003, at 14:45:59
Posted by Caleb462 on October 6, 2003, at 22:07:12
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK........., posted by steven landau on October 1, 2003, at 23:07:08
> I just sent away for Vicodin from an internet site and I was amazed at how easy and fast and relatively cheap it was to get.
You do realize this could get you in legal trouble, right?
Now, I am really enjoying it, but I have a few questions, and I was hoping somebody may have information.
I'm sure you are enjoying it, hyrocodone (or any opiod) can be absolute bliss.
> 1. the pills I got are called Hydrocodone/APAP 7.5/500mg. How much of these are aceteminophin (Tylenol)? I read that it is is very bad for your liver to take too much of that on a regular basis. I have been only doing two of the the vicodins each nite (with two glasses of white wine). Is this a health issue?
500 mg APAP = 500 mg Acetaminophen. Equivalent to 1 extra-strength Tylenol. Taking 500-1000 mg of APAP is certainly not a health issue, but combining it with alcohol might not be the wisest thing - the acetaminophen/alcohol combo can be quite hard on your liver.
Am I going to want to do more and more and then get addicted
Maybe. Maybe not. It all depends on the person. You do need to realize that hydrocodone can be a very addictive drug. You will develop tolerance (though at only 1-2 a night, it will likely develop fairly slow), and you will need more to get the same effect.
I started using hydrocodone a long while back, small doses (Usually no more than 10-25 mg within a day), and only a few times a month. I began to love the opioid high... especially the smacked-out of your head large dose high. I began using hydrocodone to medicate my anxiety/depression, and it worked better and still works better, than anything else. In the last few months, I've used more than ever.. and have several times taken doses up 100 mg in a period of about 6 hours. I have avoided physical addiction by skipping a few days here, another day here, but from a psychological standpoint, I consider myself an addict. Not long ago, I was consistenly high for about 2 weeks. I feel like I'm getting better at controlling it now - but the cravings can be quite hard, and I like it way too much to stop using at this point. I'm trying to space the doses out as much as possible (3 or 4 days in between).
I just wanted to relate my story to you so you'll realize that addiction is a very real thing. If you want to continue taking vicodin, I would advise against using it every night. The only guarantee against the trap of addiction, of course, is to not use at all.
Is this stupid to be doing?Stupid? No. Potentially hazardous? Yes.
Posted by Sabina on October 7, 2003, at 3:32:45
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK........., posted by Caleb462 on October 6, 2003, at 22:07:12
Posted by steven landau on October 30, 2003, at 16:31:28
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK........., posted by Caleb462 on October 6, 2003, at 22:07:12
Thanks for the information. I have been trying to get some more Vicodin via websites, but can't find one that is as easy as the one that I got the first batch from (called xxx, I think). The first one won't give me a refill yet. xxx
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 11:04:38
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Everything Is AOK........., posted by steven landau on October 30, 2003, at 16:31:28
> I have been trying to get some more Vicodin via websites, but can't find one that is as easy as the one that I got the first batch from (called xxx, I think)... xxx
Please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to import into the US prescription medication without a prescription:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Lindsay Rae on November 25, 2003, at 22:12:43
In reply to Re: prescription medication without a prescription » steven landau, posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 11:04:38
Ah, yes, the Vicodin and wine cocktail. I was actually on a quite successful Vodka and Vicodin diet two years ago. I can relate completely with Barbara Cat.
Fast forward two years: I'm on 120 mg of Methadone daily, and there is no "high" about it. I'd give anything to go back to the two or three pills a day with a bottle of wine stage of my life. It was the best, and I was my thinnest then. But let it be a lesson to all--I never thought I'd do Heroin, but it's opiate nature makes it (along with Oxycontin) virtually unavoidable as a result of the dame "dope sick" feeling you get from stopping Vicodin.
Does anyone else have experience with Methadone? I think I'd be better off weaning myself from it and returning to the Vicodin/Lorcet dependency. Which brings me to another point: there is a distinct difference between drug dependance and drug addiction.
L. Rae
Posted by steven landau on November 25, 2003, at 22:25:50
In reply to Re: prescription medication without a prescription, posted by Lindsay Rae on November 25, 2003, at 22:12:43
What do you mean by
"the dame "dope sick" feeling you get from stopping Vicodin."
I was getting this wierd feeling like I was extremely jumpy/anxious, like I was going to jump out of my skin when I stopped doing Vicodin/Vodka. Is that what you are talking about? If so, how long does it take to go away?
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Substance Use | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.