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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by johnj on April 6, 2003, at 18:47:44
In reply to Please come back. » johnj, posted by beardedlady on April 5, 2003, at 16:58:47
Posted by beardedlady on April 6, 2003, at 19:22:08
In reply to Re: Please come back. (nm), posted by johnj on April 6, 2003, at 18:47:44
Posted by johnj on April 6, 2003, at 19:33:02
In reply to Re: Please come back. (nm), posted by johnj on April 6, 2003, at 18:47:44
Hi Beardy:
I just wrote a long response and nothing showed up?? Well, I will try again, but will have to give the Readers Digest version.I apologize for snapping at you Beardy, I value your input and please feel free to always post suggestions, comments, etc., I have been very tired for the last few days. Grocery shopping took all of my energy and then I had to lay down for an hour. Don't know why, but I left work early on Friday feeling totally drained. Not a bad mood, just no energy.
I still have pretty good sleep with Mg and will just try to take it slow. I just felt so happy to feel good I wanted to do so much afraid that it wouldn't last. And maybe doing too much is what hurt me. Will I ever learn?
I need to check into the cortisol thing. I wonder why my pdoc never mentioned cortisol increase during excercise? I think you were right and that I maybe had a cumulative effect of cortisol or the type of work out, even though light could have elevated things to where sleep was interrupted. Sorry for being an ass, it was just a big letdown when I realized I couldn't excercise like I wanted too. I sit so much with work that my butt is sore and working out seemed to help. Now, I am not sure what to do.... take care
johnj
Posted by johnj on April 6, 2003, at 19:50:15
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on April 4, 2003, at 13:11:09
Hi Ron,
It has been a less than stellar few days, see my post to Beardy.> I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping.
<Please give me a little more detail regarding your sleep problems. Do you have trouble falling asleep when you first lie down or do you fall asleep initially but then wake up in the middle of the night and can't go back to sleep?>
This time I had trouble falling asleep and then woke up about an hour earlier. I rarely wake up in the middle of the night. If I do it is around 4 and then I half sleep waiting for the alarm.
<When you're having trouble getting to sleep, is your body tired but your brain is going full steam? In other words, do you lay in bed ruminating thoughts over-and-over in you mind?>
If don't fall asleep soon, I will start to ruminate. Generally, I do that much more when I wake up early. I find trouble spots in life or work and then play them over. After I started Mg when I woke up in the morning, for ex, Saturday I would stay in bed for awhile, but not ruminate in a bad sense just lay there and enjoy the time in bed.
<When you finally get to sleep, do you sleep soundly or do you merely doze near the edge of consciousness?>
This happens in the morning if I wake up early, but I have had it sometimes at night, but rarely. I did have it last year where it seemd like I was like what you described on several nights and I was beat in the morning.
<For what its worth, increases in the intensity of my exercise program causes sleep problems for me until I become accustom to the higher level of activity. In my case, I have always attributed this to an increase in endorphins which (according to my theory) causes some hypomania. But this is just my layman's explanation that I use to make sense out of my world. It comes in handy while I am laying sleepless in my bed becoming more angry by the minute ruminating about the fact that my inability to get to sleep is going to make me very unproductive and uncomfortable the next day.>
Man, the next day fear is horrible. I have felt like I was not going to make it through the day or die or something. Being unproductive, especially, with the friction in my section , makes for a bad day.
<If I had not been lifting weights on a regular basis, and then lifted at 6 pm, it’s almost guaranteed that I would have a difficult time getting to sleep. I have to ramp up my exercise program gradually and consistently over an extended period of time.>
I am almost thinking of going down in the morning and just doing one excercise, maybe two sets, and see what happens.
<John, I know your situation is more complicated than the one I've described, but it may have some applicability. I have a hunch that ATP is involved either directly or indirectly in your exercise related problems.>
I had problems in that past, but I could go 3 months before hitting a wall. Now, it seems like I can't do anything without upsetting the balance. In fact, my most recent fall, about 1.5 years ago, was after I ramped up my jogging program to where I was going 13 to 15 minutes straight. This was also 2 months after I had pnuemonia. My doc doesn't seem too concerned, but I told him excercise is how I help myself and it is frustrating not being able to do that. I just wish I knew how or where to do to figure what is happening because it is definately biologically based. Somehting just isn't shutting off letting my body relax and repair. Too bad the CRH drugs are far off.....
Thanks for your help Ron, I appreciate it.-- Ron
Posted by johnj on April 6, 2003, at 20:05:33
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » johnj, posted by JLx on April 4, 2003, at 13:48:15
Glad to see you came back. Hope you stick around and let us know how it goes.
I did eat lots of prepared foods, and ate out most lunches last week. I don't know much about glutamates or what to avoid so that is tough.
Wow, the cortisol/DHEA articles are very interesting. I am so suprised that docs don't take these levels. Adrenal exhaustion and how I first became ill was due to prolonged periods of stress that finally overcame me.
I need to keep a food log, then I can have something to look back on and see if something tipped the scales.
Thank you for the info, I will try to get the cortisol connection and see what I can learn. Need to get or find a way to counteract the cortisol. Tai chi seems to be ok, maybe that is the way I need to go. Thanks again. take care
johnj
Posted by johnj on April 6, 2003, at 20:12:49
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 11:35:46
Thanks Larry,
I will stay away from weight lifting and just try to get in shape walking, and working outside. I bought some alph lipoic acid today for my peyronies disease. That in itself is depressing. I was wiped out this weekend and it does feel like a rebound effect. Do you think that ont of the hormones that counteract cortisol could be DHEA. I haven't looked into it and will wait since I have been adding other supplements but it would be interesting to try. That is one thing I feel is that I don't come down after working out. The fatigue, IMHO, is also some fault in the TCA I take. I hear it from other people. Also, my benzo or lithium could be doing something. It is a hard call since I have been able to work out in the past while on these meds. Thanks again Larry. Take care
johnj
Posted by leeran on April 7, 2003, at 10:30:26
In reply to Re: magnesium, sleeping » beardedlady, posted by JLx on April 6, 2003, at 15:54:39
Bearded Lady -
I read many of your posts with great interest but admittedly, I haven't read them all.
Your statement (copied and pasted below) has me intrigued! Do you attribute your heightened sense of well-being primarily to magnesium?
Would you be willing to give an abbreviated list or synopsis of your regimen? I'm thinking we might be about the same age and I'm ready to jump on ANY BANDWAGON that would bring about the feelings you describe below.
I just purchased magnesium (not the brand that's recommended by Eby simply because I didn't want to drive to Santa Monica to purchase it) and I'm also weaning myself off of a week's worth of Lexapro. Reading this thread on magnesium played a part in that decision. Moreover, I found that living in a catatonic state (even with 40 mg. of Adderall coursing through my body) wasn't something I could tolerate - even for a few weeks (first-born, recovering type A here).
I also found your statement (in another post) regarding "grief hell" since having your daughter five years ago of interest. I had my son at age 29 and it seems like my "PMS" (what I also refer to as "poor me syndrome" since I no longer have periods and don't want to abandon my phantom PMS quite yet) symptoms were definitely heightened after the entire birth process. It might have just been coincidental considering I ended up in early menopause 10 - 15 years later.
Thanks, in advance, for any insight you might be willing to provide. I enjoy your straightforward and well-written posts. I'm not looking for euphoria but "good was 'just living'" sounds divine!
--------------------RE: I hope your good sleep effect lasts more than a week. It's been 6 weeks for me now and I was thinking today that I haven't felt good 6 weeks in a row -- where good was "just living" -- since I can't even remember when. I sure wish I had known 20 years ago what I've just learned lately but better late than never! :)
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 10:43:17
In reply to Re: magnesium, sleeping » JLx, posted by leeran on April 7, 2003, at 10:30:26
Hi, Leeran:
I think you combined and confused a few posts--the one you quoted was from JLx; he's the magnesium man. I just started taking 200 mg. of magnesium citrate after dinner about six days ago.
> I also found your statement (in another post) regarding "grief hell" since having your daughter five years ago of interest.
This comment was, indeed, mine. But my grief hell didn't have to do with my daughter. (Actually, she was born with an eye infection and had to stay in NICU while I nursed her from a room across the hall, where I could only stay if someone wasn't there from out of town.)
Grief hell was that one month postpardum, my beloved dog died (my first child); two weeks later, my grandmother died unexpectedly; a few months later, my father-in-law died; and somewhere in there my husband lost his job, I got a new job, and my daughter stopped nursing cold turkey--all before she was eight months old!
I know where you're coming from, though. And I hope JLx can answer your questions. His regimen is above somewhere, but it's a lot of stuff for a lot of specific issues.
Just make sure you take an absorbable form of magnesium--like glycinate or citrate. But that's where my knowledge ends!
Good luck!
Beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 11:09:22
In reply to Re: magnesium, sleeping, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 10:43:17
Posted by JLx on April 7, 2003, at 11:34:33
In reply to Re: magnesium, sleeping, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 10:43:17
>Bearded Lady to Leeran: I think you combined and confused a few posts--the one you quoted was from JLx; he's the magnesium man. I just started taking 200 mg. of magnesium citrate after dinner about six days ago.Actually I am a magnesium WOMAN. :) People on message boards nearly always assume I'm a man for some reason. George Eby is the magnesium man, AFAIC, and Leeran, if you are interested in trying this, I would urge you to read his page and his many links too, to see how much might apply to you.
http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html
> Bearded Lady to Leeran: I know where you're coming from, though. And I hope JLx can answer your questions. His regimen is above somewhere, but it's a lot of stuff for a lot of specific issues.I don't think I'm particularly knowledgeable, I can only say what I've learned from some reading and what has worked for me.
Leeran, PMS is known to be magnesium deficiency related. Here's an article about that:
http://www.mgwater.com/ww123102.shtml
Someone here recently recommended that Dr. Dean's book, "The Miracle of Magnesium". I haven't read it yet, as it's taking weeks to get it from my library. It must be popular!
Posted by baracuda on April 7, 2003, at 12:07:19
In reply to Re: magnesium, Leeran, Bearded Lady, posted by JLx on April 7, 2003, at 11:34:33
im reading your articles/posts here about magnesium - do you think it has any dangerous interactions with taking A/D's?? because im so willing to try just about anything that will help me with my ailments....but im scared of interactions - i had a bad experience a few years back that has left me traumatized - and my next pdoc appt isnt for a nother month yet...
any info from anyone would be appreciated!
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 12:26:32
In reply to Re: magnesium, Leeran, Bearded Lady, posted by JLx on April 7, 2003, at 11:34:33
breasts yet! (LOL)
Really sorry about the sex mixup. I can usually tell, but you write like a boy. Oh, well. At least you throw like a girl. : )>
I'm all fouled up now. This has just discombobulated me.
beardedlady : )>
Posted by JLx on April 7, 2003, at 12:40:07
In reply to Maybe it's because you haven't enlarged your... » JLx, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 12:26:32
LOL! No need to enlarge them, but they could use another form of cosmetic surgery. ;)
How is it I write like a guy? That's been puzzling me for years now. I posted on a CNN board for a long time with many of the same people, completely unaware that most were thinking of me as a man until I said something to indicate otherwise.
I did make a reference to the women's herbal formula I was taking, btw, so you are obviously not reading my posts with due diligence. <g>
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 13:20:55
In reply to Re: Maybe it's because you haven't enlarged your... » beardedlady, posted by JLx on April 7, 2003, at 12:40:07
You know, I do remember that. But I'll tell you what happened. John posted about weight lifting, and we used to have a JohnX2 here (what happened to that brilliant man?). I crossed your names, and you became John Lx2.
Yes, it's a stretch, but it's absolutely the truth! So I have been reading your posts, but, alas, I'm reading too many posts.
Please let it be an essay test because I cannot explain my way out of objectives.
beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 13:22:42
In reply to Re: Maybe it's because you haven't enlarged your... » beardedlady, posted by JLx on April 7, 2003, at 12:40:07
Yeah, I'd like to have that other surgery, but on one side. I'm a leftist politically, but I lean biologically to the right.
Ah, TMI. Time to go.
beardy : )>
Posted by kara lynne on April 7, 2003, at 13:52:58
In reply to P.S. » JLx, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 13:22:42
Hi beardy,
Don't feel too bad, I thought JLx was a guy too (but I really haven't been reading all the posts diligently--my apologies!). I also thought IsoM was a guy for a long time. Maybe it's that scientific minded writing--(unfortunately or unconsciously) we don't expect it to come from women as much...? Well I'll speak for myself--after all, you do have a beard.
Posted by leeran on April 7, 2003, at 19:14:55
In reply to P.S. » JLx, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 13:22:42
Ahhh, if only magnesium could lift the spirits as well as the bustline . . . what a wonder drug it would be, indeed.
Sorry for the overall confusion with who posted what, when and where. I DO read your posts with interest. Thanks for clarifying the "grief hell" after childbirth. It sounds like an incredibly trying time.
> Yeah, I'd like to have that other surgery, but on one side. I'm a leftist politically, but I lean biologically to the right.
>
> Ah, TMI. Time to go.
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 19:34:45
In reply to Re: P.S. » beardedlady, posted by leeran on April 7, 2003, at 19:14:55
Posted by leeran on April 8, 2003, at 0:17:40
In reply to Thanks, hon. But I'll be getting blocked soon. (nm) » leeran, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 19:34:45
Oh no! Because of what I said - or said in reply to you??? I hope not! I suppose I will be as well, especially for throwing out my personal antidote (in another thread) for the sexual side effects of SSRI's.
I'm wondering if this board might make me feel a bit too paranoid. The first-born/only child in me is always worried about getting in trouble.
In any case, if magnesium ends up being a salve for paranoia and guilty feelings I'll consider myself saved by this thread - and consider the entire venture/visit a success.
Posted by fuji on April 8, 2003, at 8:09:03
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
After reading all the posts on magnesium, I went out and bought some. It's about 7 days so far but I definitely am having sleep problems in that I can't fall asleep and I don't stay asleep 3 out of 7 days for sure. Mind you I never have sleep problems and I can usually sleep anytime any place so I have to attribute this to the mag. Anyone else have this particular side effect?
fuji
Posted by johnj on April 8, 2003, at 8:30:16
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by fuji on April 8, 2003, at 8:09:03
I had a great 9 nights and 10 days with Mg. But, I overdid things, physically speaking, and my sleep does not appear to be as sound anymore. I am waking up early now. It really knocked me out the first week or so. I only had one morning when I woke up early and I felt energized as hell the first week. I am sure my problems are not all caused by Mg, as my history is one of having a tough time to fall asleep and early morning awakenings at various times. I am going to alter my time and dose(I have been at 400 and 600 mg). I do like the anti-anxiety feelings it gives me, kind of soothing, but taking it during the day leaves me sort of sleepy. Have you tried changing your dose or dose time? How much have you been taking? Hope it works out well for you. I seem to recall another person or two having their total sleep time shortened, but the quality appeared to increase. That is how I started to feel. How does the sleep quality rate?take care
johnj
Posted by JLx on April 8, 2003, at 8:30:24
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by fuji on April 8, 2003, at 8:09:03
How much are you taking, what form of magneisum is it, is there anything else that you take with it, and when are you taking it?
Posted by fuji on April 8, 2003, at 8:43:49
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium! » fuji, posted by JLx on April 8, 2003, at 8:30:24
I had been taking 400mg mag glycinate in the morning with my effexor and prozac. I started to increase to 800mg split am/pm and then 600mg am/pm and I think that is when I started to notice the sleep thing. I tend to have contrary reactions to medications and always have so perhaps I should stay at 400 for a while and see how that goes. By the way, I told my psytrst that I was taking it and he didn't hold much stock in it but didn't have a problem with me taking it as long as I didn't take too much which apparently can be bad.
I would love for this stuff to be the beall and end all of depression!!
fuji
Posted by JLx on April 8, 2003, at 9:54:42
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by fuji on April 8, 2003, at 8:43:49
> I would love for this stuff to be the beall and end all of depression!!
I would love to see it work for everyone else as well as it has for me too.
What brand of magnesium glycinate are you taking? I recall George Eby saying that someone wrote him and said "Oh, it didn't work" until he suggested changing the brand. (I wonder if that was KAL brand, as it's fairly easy to find, whereas Carlson's is not.)
I've had contradictory reactions to meds too, but remember magnesium is not a medication. If you started drinking a form of mineral water with magnesium, happened to change your diet to include many more magnesium rich foods, and/or started taking Epsom Salt baths to relax, you'd be getting more magnesium and probably not even think about it. (And that's still an option if you feel the magnesium glycinate is the problem.)
Perhaps the magnesium is changing how your body/brain reacts to your psych meds? I don't understand the chemistry to all this so I can't reason out how it might, but perhaps someone else here can. I quit taking my meds right away, which was easy for me as I always felt terrible while on them anyway.
I was also waking up after an hour or two of sleep the first few days on magnesium, but feeling quite refreshed when I did so. I started taking melatonin and 5-HTP at night and now sleep well through the night.
I'd suggest that you e-mail George Eby. I wrote to him to thank him and received a prompt, courteous reply. I got the impression that he is used to receiving e-mail from people for whom magnesium did NOT help, which is one reason why he includes all of the other advice he does regarding other dietary changes and factors. He might be able to sort out this reaction too.
You've already considered if you're doing anything else different that might be keeping you awake?
If you weren't deficient before, I can see how magnesium supplementation might not help, but it's harder for me to understand why it would contribute to sleep probs.
I suspect that for each of us optimal "brain health" may be a matter of a lot of fine tuning. I'm beginning to feel very lucky that I am having such great success with what I'm doing.
Posted by disney4 on April 8, 2003, at 10:37:30
In reply to Re: magnesium, Leeran, Bearded Lady, posted by baracuda on April 7, 2003, at 12:07:19
I had an interaction between Wellbutrin, Neurontin, and magnesium. It caused me to have terrible akathisia (heart palpitations, extreme anxiety). I had been off the wellbutrin for a day, but it was still in my system. I attribute it to having taken too high of a mag dose. I had taken a 2-84 mg slow release mag tabs 12 hours apart, a multi with 125 mg of mag, and was drinking a lot of mineral water. My take on magnesium is that it is great when taken in moderation with other vitamins. It can help with relaxation and migraines. Just be careful with dosage and any other sources of magnesium intake.
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