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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DoubtingAlex on December 1, 2004, at 15:12:41
First of all let me say hello to each and everyone on this board. This board has
been of great help (and a source of hope in the darkest of days) to me.To my topic: 6 months ago I was prescribed Remeron, I was quite a quick responder,
within two days I could feel a difference in my mood and energy levels. And after a week my mood improved
so much that I said to myself; "Endeed I feel >>normal<<", after many years
I could feel emotions and paint my thoughts with them. Then after two weeks the mood suddenlly changed
back to depression for a week and a half, then back to normal for a week and a half and so on and on.
However these periods of depression have gadually become longer and after 4 mounths on remeron,
there is hardlly ever a day with normal mood.
Before Remeron I was on Zoloft, then Effexor (helped in the way that made me emotionally numb)
tried Xanax (had similar effect as Zoloft), Aurorix, tieneptine (both made me worse). And as I look back it seems to me
that my mood always cycled with a period of three weeks (~10 bad with 10 worse days).
Remeron was the only medicine with bad period being lifted to "normal". And also when I stopped taking
Effexor my mood very much improved to normal for two weeks before suddenlly crashing into a black hole.
On this board I came across the term "Bipolar II" but am not sure if I fall in this category.
I must admitt that recentlly I purchased Lithium Orotate and took two capsules the first day
and one capsule the second day. Then I stopped. The first day it seemed as if it is better with feelings back in the evening,
but the second day I felt even more depressed. Although not necesserilly because of trying Lithium. Anyways I didn't
want to take a chance and submerge any circle deeper in hell as I went to work the next day.
Perhaps I'll try it when I'm on a leave for a week or so.I also read something about Lamictal.
But the most important; I want to hear from your opinions and perhaps similar experiences, all
are welcome. Of great value to me are all those of you who disagree in some way and see
something else in my pattern that I don't see right now, my knowledge
and assumptions are very limited and my mind is not a non-discriminative judge in this matter,
my hypothesis may well only be what I want to believe right now.I am to myself the biggest assumption! (Carl Jung)
Alexander
Posted by HappyGirl on December 2, 2004, at 0:33:12
In reply to Remeron pooping out - Maybe Bipolar II, posted by DoubtingAlex on December 1, 2004, at 15:12:41
Hi:
In Bipolar, there are 'two' poles,... one for depressive episode and another for 'hypomanic(Bp II) or manic(full blown manic on Bp I)one. However, in reading your description, I can hardly find any 'hypomanic' episode. What you're describing are 'two' phrases, 'depression and normal.' Then, I truly doubt you have Bipolar, ... rather I suspect you have 'major form of depression.'You've been on numerous anti-depressants until Remeron, however it seems that your system have NOT responded well to any of those anti-depressants or not able to 'sustain' anti-dep. effect in your system for a long-term period.
The case like yours, there must be a problem of finding a right anti-dep. due to your brief positive response to anti-dep. In my VERY personal guess, ... probably you may get a benefit by taking a milder form of anti-psycho. med., like Seroquel(very low dosage) combined with anti-depressant in order to maximum anti-depressant effectiveness. However, taking any AP's must need under your pdoc.'s observation because of the nature of AP's effectivenss along with its side-effects.
H.G.
Posted by SandyWeb on December 2, 2004, at 21:31:23
In reply to Re: Remeron pooping out - Maybe Bipolar II, posted by HappyGirl on December 2, 2004, at 0:33:12
I am on Remeron (45mg) along with Seroquel, Inderal LA, and Neurontin. I feel as close to stable as is possible with meds, I think. However, I have to be so careful when I am PMSing. The meds just don't seem to have as much power during that week. I de-stablize, and it is possible that I could follow through with my feelings at such a time. I have to fight to make it through the PMS (which, by the way, is the time when I slit my wrist. Interesting). Why do the meds poop out at such a time? Just when you need them the most.
Sandy
Posted by olysi79 on December 3, 2004, at 19:28:31
In reply to Re: Remeron pooping out - Maybe Bipolar II, posted by HappyGirl on December 2, 2004, at 0:33:12
Alex, Have you ever had experiences where you felt so accelerated that you might burst? Racing thoughts, either extreme elation or agitation? Think back, and if you've had issues like this it could be bipolar... regardless, Extreme mood swings are not normal, and you deserve to have some stability. Perhaps try another SSRI with a mood stabilizer or Lithium, I hope you feel better.
Best
Chris
> Hi:
> In Bipolar, there are 'two' poles,... one for depressive episode and another for 'hypomanic(Bp II) or manic(full blown manic on Bp I)one. However, in reading your description, I can hardly find any 'hypomanic' episode. What you're describing are 'two' phrases, 'depression and normal.' Then, I truly doubt you have Bipolar, ... rather I suspect you have 'major form of depression.'
>
> You've been on numerous anti-depressants until Remeron, however it seems that your system have NOT responded well to any of those anti-depressants or not able to 'sustain' anti-dep. effect in your system for a long-term period.
>
> The case like yours, there must be a problem of finding a right anti-dep. due to your brief positive response to anti-dep. In my VERY personal guess, ... probably you may get a benefit by taking a milder form of anti-psycho. med., like Seroquel(very low dosage) combined with anti-depressant in order to maximum anti-depressant effectiveness. However, taking any AP's must need under your pdoc.'s observation because of the nature of AP's effectivenss along with its side-effects.
> H.G.
Posted by barbaracat on December 4, 2004, at 13:38:59
In reply to Remeron pooping out - Maybe Bipolar II, posted by DoubtingAlex on December 1, 2004, at 15:12:41
Hi Alex,
I had a similar situation as far as Remeron, almost the same pattern. I felt great at first, better than an any other AD, felt great for 2 months and then it started pooping. Raised it, poop, raised it, etc. This was very frustrating because I've been on almost all of the ADs and my depressions were getting bleaker, blacker and more frequent. It eventually turned out that I was bipolar II. Lithium made a huge difference in my life. Lithium carbonate, that is. Believe me, if you need lithium then lithium orotate will not be enough. I recently made that switch (for the second time) trying the orotate form and within 3 weeks was cycling back down again.As for HappyGirl's assesment of bipolar, I beg to disagree. Bipolar is not always opposite poles, it can frequently look just like a very black depression with occasional forays into more agitated states like anxiety, irritability, disorganization (can look alot like ADHD). In fact, bipolar II is characterized by much more frequent and prevalent depressions with relatively infrequent hypomanias, which again, can look like anxiety or irritability without the 'fun' aspects we normally associate with mania.
Then there is mixed-states where the blackness and despair of depression collide with the energy and disorder of mania and can produce some very scary nightmarish symptoms. This is me. I've had some bona fide manic and hypomanias which can be lots of fun. Nothing like a good hypomania. Wish I could bottle that energy and creativity and charisma and flights of wonderful ideas for later.
But my point is, 'classic' bipolar doesn't seem to exist except in movies and novels. I resisted accepting that diagnosis for a long time because of what it signified. After all, you can talk about being depressed at parties and get alot of concurrence, but mention 'bipolar' and watch them move away from you and watch you funny from a good distance. No, I didn't want to be bipolar and felt I wasn't because of the stereotypical image of depressed/madcap grandiose. I decided to try lithium because nothing else was working anylonger and ADs were clearly making things worse (except for Remeron which eventually did nothing). Lithium worked within the week and has continued to keep me relatively even keeled and quite sane. I'm on a very low amount and not even within the therapeutic window, but it's working well. The occasional depression breaks through (I went into mourning after this last election) and the occasional agitation/disorganization, but it quickly passes and I suspect it's no more than what 'normal' people experience. Into each life a little rain must fall, and all that. St. John's Wort and fish oil pretty much keep the dark stuff at bay.
This is not to say that you're BP. Perhaps you haven't yet found the right AD and need to give it more time and tries (although it sounds like you have already). Sometimes it's just a matter of trying a med and seeing if it works, and if so, well, there you go. But I wouldn't judge anything by your experience with lithium orotate. I know some people have had results with it, but for me it was like sugar pills and I was taking 9 pills a day - and this was a very highly recommended pharmaceutical grade brand. The other part is that some bipolars are not helped by lithium at all but by one of the other mood stabilizers. Such a crap shoot.
I was on lamictal for a while and it helped for a short while, but pooped out. I got the dreaded rash too. Nope, lithium, St. John's and fish oil are my staples these days. Hope this helps. - Barbara
Posted by DoubtingAlex on December 8, 2004, at 15:08:05
In reply to Re: Remeron pooping out - Maybe Bipolar II » DoubtingAlex, posted by barbaracat on December 4, 2004, at 13:38:59
I added just 25mg of Zoloft to my 15-22 mg of Remeron and I believe it brought to me such a boost in emotions and in the period of no more than few hours. Like if I would strike my depression with a balanced spear right in the heart heart. I feel very stable, deep-minded and don't question myself why something essential is missing nor do I feel sensless and numb, I feel a satisfaction inside of me. Yesterday when I came back from my work, I layed down to my bed just from a great need to listen to and shape my thoughts with emotions. I must state that I don't feel mania or hypomania, my thoughts don't race, I'.m not agitated or hyoeractive. I am just calmed down and see everything in different perspective with all the limitations that are put in someone's life, But strangelly I feel intellectually strong. And when I went just for a walk three days ago in the late evening, I felt determined, my step was firm, not somewhat uncertain and weak like I always felt. This firmness trully came from inside of me and I could feel it. I really felt as if "I know where I'm going" in my life and didn't care for all those to whom I felt like crip when compared to.
Yet, I want to say something completelly different from what I'm saying, but am unable to express it. I know how devastating depression was and how my life was ruined because of it, but yet don't feel as if I lost a part of my life.
Now in the evenings when I shape my thoughts with feelings... - just don't know how to say this, everything is taking some form and I feel great about it.
Posted by barbaracat on December 8, 2004, at 15:45:48
In reply to Re: Remeron pooping out - Maybe Bipolar II, posted by DoubtingAlex on December 8, 2004, at 15:08:05
That is wonderful, Alex. Let's hope that this new found strength, clarity and purpose continues. It absolutely should, and it does function effortlessly in a healthy functioning psyche. There is a call to health, an inner call to rise above pain and stasis that is heard and followed more clearly in a mind not clouded by the fear, despair and fatigue of depression.
I like your musings in the evening as well, like a reintegration of what you experienced in your day. I have a suggestion that has helped me greatly, and that is keeping a journal. Just writing down whatever comes to me. I use it as a best friend, a therapist, a sounding board when I'm upset, a place to sort out feelings. It's truly become the best therapist and wise friend I could want. But I've been using it differently lately since I've been feeling a bit better emotionally. I've been noting down all the times I have risen up out of despair or darkness, many times on my own steam. I've hiked myself out of bad situations, I've put myself through college, I've survived a terribly abusive childhood and still yearn to create peace instead of more abuse, I've taught myself many skills, all because I answered that inner call to be better, to rise above that muck of depression. It took determination and risk, but the call was stronger than the paralysis. Many times I had to wait until a med kicked in to help me beyond the paralysis, but then the spark of Life became stronger than the darkness. I have a feeling this is what you're experiencing, and what a feeling, huh? Not drugged, just clear.
It's a great exercise to remember your amazing successes, your climbing out of the pit in so many ways, big and small, it leaves you feeling strong and hopeful and with a sense of believing in yourself. You've done amzing things many times and will do them again. So often we forget these good things about ourselves.
I wish you luck. If things start pooping, well, then you just explore with the meds some more. I think this experience is enough to tell you that there is hope. Meds are not the end-all answer, at least for me, but they do help you recircuit and remember what it's supposed to be like. Once you've experienced it, you know how it feels and can get it again. My best wishes and hopes are with you. - Barbara
> I added just 25mg of Zoloft to my 15-22 mg of Remeron and I believe it brought to me such a boost in emotions and in the period of no more than few hours. Like if I would strike my depression with a balanced spear right in the heart heart. I feel very stable, deep-minded and don't question myself why something essential is missing nor do I feel sensless and numb, I feel a satisfaction inside of me. Yesterday when I came back from my work, I layed down to my bed just from a great need to listen to and shape my thoughts with emotions. I must state that I don't feel mania or hypomania, my thoughts don't race, I'.m not agitated or hyoeractive. I am just calmed down and see everything in different perspective with all the limitations that are put in someone's life, But strangelly I feel intellectually strong. And when I went just for a walk three days ago in the late evening, I felt determined, my step was firm, not somewhat uncertain and weak like I always felt. This firmness trully came from inside of me and I could feel it. I really felt as if "I know where I'm going" in my life and didn't care for all those to whom I felt like crip when compared to.
>
> Yet, I want to say something completelly different from what I'm saying, but am unable to express it. I know how devastating depression was and how my life was ruined because of it, but yet don't feel as if I lost a part of my life.
> Now in the evenings when I shape my thoughts with feelings... - just don't know how to say this, everything is taking some form and I feel great about it.
>
This is the end of the thread.
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