Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 10:42:40
In reply to Larry Hoover Re: Ok- now who takes vitamins/, posted by McPac on April 3, 2003, at 22:42:46
> Larry, first let me say what a pleasure and privilege it is for me to be able to read your extremely informative and insightful posts.
I thoroughly enjoy the interaction. Kewl, eh?
>I have wanted to ask you some questions about my psychiatric predicament (symptoms/treatment) for some time now but I've been unable to think of "specific" questions (I have so many questions and wouldn't know where to begin,lol).
I'm glad you started.
> Let me respond to your response to me:
> "They must be using the categories defined by Dr. Pfeiffer".
>
> Guess what Larry, they are....you know why they are....because I am being treated at The Pfeiffer Treatment Center in Illinois!Lucky guess! <wink>
>I must tell you though, when I went there it was very neat and interesting for me. First, my visit consisted of a 2 1/2 hour session with a nurse who asked me a ton of questions, many of which were from their questionnaire. She tried to get a comprehensive idea about my problems, medicines; you name it, she asked it. Then I talked to a doctor there who further asked questions for quite some time. Then they took a blood sample, hair sample and urinalysis of me. Before going there, I did send them written info. about me which they asked in advance of my first visit. The facility was nice but rather small, NOT some huge laboratory-type place....more like a regular doctor's office but somewhat larger than that. They do have their own little pharmacy there also.
I can't understand why this approach isn't used more generally. Doesn't it make sense to ask enough questions up front, so that guesswork is avoided? Ineffective treatment is a massive waste of time, money, and effort.
> "According to Pfeiffer, "This syndrome (high histamine) often involves seasonal variations in depression, obsessive-compulsive behavior, inhalant allergies, and frequent headaches." Does that fit you?"
>
> That fits me VERY WELL. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, at one time in my life, was at absolutely UNBEARABLE levels. My main problems have always been OCD, depression (bipolar-type, mainly lows) and anxiety/nervousness. But my meds have worked VERY well for these problems (raising my serotonin levels has always seemed to be the key for me), although my Zoloft appeared to start losing it's effectiveness recently. That's what scared me and got me to go to Pfeiffer. I didn't want to have my entire life and well-being revolve around a med that could stop working at any time. I've always read about alternative ideas, w/ nutrition and supplements being something I've read a LOT about. As I was leaving Pfeiffer, the nurse put together a folder to take with me. One of the papers that they gave me was a sheet on high histamine levels. After I left, I read that sheet (this was of course BEFORE my test results ever came back and it was NOT written specifically for me. They obviously deduced that I may be high histamine just from my symptoms). As I read the paper I almost fell off my chair! I saw that high histamine was often linked with OCD. No shrink EVER mentioned ANY of the stuff that I learned while there!A typical doctor (so I'm told) receives one four-hour session on nutrition. I'm sure a shrink studies the way neurotransmitters are synthesized, and their dependence on nutrients, but they still seem to rely on the assumption that the only disruption or imbalance in depressives is in neurotransmitters. How could that be, if everything else worked right?
>Then the results came back with VERY high histamine levels. I've always had terrible allergies as well. And my depression gets worse in the winter....I HATE these long, DARK, sunless, winters! I feel much, much better with SUNLIGHT! And I've always had my share of headaches.
You and me both, dude.
> "What I don't understand is that high-histamine depressives are said to be under-methylated, but they don't advocate methyl donors (e.g. betaine, vitamin B-12) as treatment".
>
> Larry, check this out....maybe they have modified their approach because my treatment prescription consists of TMG (betaine anhydrous) 500mg/day....also vitamin B-12, 2000mcg/day. Just what you were wondering about!Good! I was baffled by the articles I'd read. Probably, they were written by people who don't understand biochemistry. Pfeiffer has written books. Perhaps I'll search them out.
Betaine causes insomnia in me, so be wary. It can be extremely activating. And that B-12 dose is nearly 1,000 times the RDA. It's quite safe, nonetheless. The RDA is based on a number of fallacious assumptions, IMHO.
> Yes, methionine is a big part of the plan it seems....2000mg/day.....many other ingredients also.
Did your blood work include an assessment of homocysteine? (It's probably elevated.)
I don't quite follow the need for supplemental methionine, as betaine will remethylate homocysteine to methionine, as will B-12.
In chronic depression, homocysteine accumulates in the blood, and can lead to heart attack and stroke. In simple terms, depression is associated with defects in sulphur metabolism. Methionine is an amino acid with a sulphur atom in it.
Methionine reactics with adenosine (as found in RNA and ATP), at the sulphur atom, to form S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe). The S- just says where the adenosine binds to the methionine. It is the "universal methyl donor", an essential molecule in a vast array of enzymatic processes and DNA transcription. After it donates a methyl group, you're left with S-adenosyl homocysteine. The adenosine is recycled, freeing homocysteine. Here's where problems occur in depressives. Stress blocks the normal recycling of homocysteine to methionine. Homocysteine accumulates while SAMe is depleted. You could take SAMe, but that doesn't fix the homocysteine problem. In fact, it makes it worse. Betaine induces an enzyme (the concentration of the enzyme increases if betaine is detected) called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase. So, that will recycle homocysteine. And the B-12 will activate another enzymatic process which transfers a methyl group from the B-12 to the homocysteine.
> "they suppress folate and niacin intake"
>
> Yep.
>
> "and push methionine and calcium supplements".
>
> Yep.I'd still take magnesium, too.
> "Response is said to take months, as you have to let your folate metabolism "wind down"."
>
> Larry, could you explain "letting my folate metabolism "wind down"?Enzyme concentrations often rise in response to higher concentrations of co-enzymes (enzyme activators) like the B-vitamins. Withdrawing folate will only reduce enzyme concentrations over a period of time. There's a lag time.
> "Excess folate (if that's what you had been doing) can "hide" deficiencies in other B-vitamins.
> It will give most anyone some amount of "boost", but may coincidentally induce functional defiencies elsewhere".
>
> I was only taking a "normal" one-a-day-type folic acid supplement, no super dose....I'd like to take it but they say "No niacin, no folic acid because it builds the histamine...so I do listen to them. They said that the high histamine BLOCKS serotonin production...it all makes so much sense to me!I'm not sure that high histamine and blocked serotonin synthesis aren't both caused by something else. Whatever. You don't need to know a mechanism to know if something works or not.
>Oh yeah, other problems they discovered about me----a very high COPPER level (the symptoms of high copper were EXTREMELY close to many of mine! But, I don't know if that means the "nutrient" copper OR the heavy metal copper? (There is a difference in types of copper, right???)
Copper is a heavy metal. The different effects are due to the ionization state of the copper atoms. You need some copper, and in the ionic form. Your diet will surely contain all the copper you need.
>Also, a zinc deficiency.
Zinc deficiency causes copper overload. I can't see how you can separate out the symptoms of one from the other (unless you have the genetic defect which leads to Wilson's disease).
Zinc regulates copper, and blocks its uptake. So you really need zinc supplements. Also, selenium.
>Also, a "mild" test level result for Pyroluria (a genetic stress thing)....that makes sense and fits me when I read about pyroluria and how stress "builds". But I don't know if the pyroluria level is a "constant", stable kind of level or if it's the type that may vary widely depending on when it is taken, i.e. would next month's test show relatively the same level OR does it change from week to week, month to month, depending on stress levels???
It should balance out as the other abnormalities stabilize.
>AFTER I LEAVE Pfeiffer, I don't have much communication w/ them (I "can" call but don't much) so I have many questions with no answers.
Ask as many as you want to.
>I will have a follow-up appt. in the somewhat near future though. Larry, it is a pleasure conversing with you Larry. I RARELY type much at all, my "finger" is tired now, lol! I look forward to any response! Take care!!
I'm really interested in how well this works for you.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:215282
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030402/msgs/216171.html