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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by TheMeanReds on February 16, 2007, at 15:01:08
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous, posted by TheMeanReds on February 16, 2007, at 12:12:58
Insomnia is the worst. 5 years ago while on Paxil when my insomia was nothing big, I took melatonin. Then my good friend (psyh major) said taking it for more than two weeks is somehow bad for 'sleep chemistry'. I'd wake in the middle of sleep, going to sleep wasnt an issue. Then I tried getting up and having a piece of toast and milk. The method worked for awhile.
Benedryl helped me fall asleep, but tolerence builds. Bong hits definately was not the answer, even though in high school it worked like a charm.
When on Remeron, I was OUT, but all I wanted to do was eat while I was awake. So that was short lived.
When on Seroquel, I still had pretty much a virgin brain. It nocked me out. I only had to take a tiny pebble of a pill.
After a while I got a script for Klonopin. I agree it messes with sleep cycles, not in a good way though.
Then I became a bartender on Lexapro...things got really bad. Going to bed at 5am, and waking at noon. A regular at the bar was an herbal pharmasist. He told me to take 4 caps of hops before bed, and alphalfa three times daily. It worked.
One thing I would like to point out is that I absolutely cannot even have a glass of wine in the evening, it will mess up my sleep. No coffee after noon time. And even though Its hard, no cigarettes after 3 pm. Even though I miss my merlot, its better than missing my sleep.
To all insomniacs, I hope any of these suggestions help. Even the ones that didnt personally work for me. Good Luck.
Posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 15:54:56
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on February 15, 2007, at 13:54:28
Q,
What dose of mirtazapine did you try?
K
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:03:47
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 15:54:56
K,
I tried a variety of doses from 7.5mg to 30mg but didn't notice all that much difference between them. I used the 30mg dose as an antidepressant and the lower doses as a hypnotic.
Q
Posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 16:35:27
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » kaleidoscope, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:03:47
Hi Q
I was just curious because restlessness has been reported as a side effect of mirtazepine at high doses, but seems rare at very low doses. Since low doses can be effective for insomnia, I was wondering whether a low dose would work best for your insomnia.
K
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:39:45
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by kaleidoscope on February 16, 2007, at 16:35:27
I could re-try it again for you if you would like me to experiment, but it went off some time ago and I'm no longer convinced it's safe. I keep it more as a souvenir.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 19:18:18
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » kaleidoscope, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 16:39:45
Q what about the safety of remeron? Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 20:16:09
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 19:18:18
It's a relatively safe med Phillipa.
Q
Posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 22:09:20
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 19:18:18
Have you checked those out at the heath food store phillipa, i suggest those.
I know, may a glass of wine or rum or somehting well, never mind i may get introuble for saying that....ROFL to go with your night meds. That would not be good. I have heard alcohol disturbs sleep cycles BAD.
Anyways really check them out.
ALso GABA the nuerotransmitter or what ever you can buy also at the heath food store.
Try it!
Matt
Posted by Phillipa on February 16, 2007, at 22:13:17
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root?, posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 22:09:20
Thank-you Matt. I will look into them. Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 23:05:52
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root?, posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 22:09:20
> Have you checked those out at the heath food store phillipa, i suggest those.
Kava is fine for relaxation, but don't combine it with alcohol. It does have a known issue with liver problems and should be taken on an occasional basis until more study has been done on it.
Nonetheless, I have used it -- if you do not habituate to it, Kava is about on par of a small dose of Xanax. I would suggest the GAIA liqui-caps or similar which actually list the active level of kavalactones -- dried Kava with no description is unlikely to produce the pronounced effect of an herbal extract that actually lists the potency of kavalactones.
Valerian is a weaker agent -- for the average person with some mild sleep problems it may have some effect. I have found, and this is only my own digestive system, that I am nauseated the day after using it. Again, this is an agent that should be checked for potency.> I know, may a glass of wine or rum or somehting well, never mind i may get introuble for saying that....ROFL to go with your night meds. That would not be good. I have heard alcohol disturbs sleep cycles BAD.
>
> Anyways really check them out.
>
> ALso GABA the nuerotransmitter or what ever you can buy also at the heath food store.
GABA will do nearly nothing for the body but wonders for the wallet as it cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Only Neurontin or Lyrica has the power to cross the blood-brain barrier because of molecular modulation that allows analogues of GABA to cross over.
Posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 23:18:49
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root? » rjlockhart, posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 23:05:52
thanks yxibow.
I dont have much knowlage on this but i do know that taking Xanax and Kava Kava together will, well i have heard it has but people into a coma! im not kidding so, phillipa, you may want to just check out valerian root.
Kava Kava i have taken it, is very relaxing. I dont know why they have it on the market because it can be abused like a benzodiazpine.
You can also order it online. If you cant find it.
GABA i have tried, it just very mellowly mellows you out some what, not good for sleep.
Valerian root you may want to try. But the only thing about it is it only lasts 30min! can you belive that! well for me it does, it wears of i can feel it.
So just go to heathfood store and check out Kava Kava, and Valerian Root. Actually you can get Valerien root in the grocery store, pharmacy section.....
The reason i said maybe some Rum..... i would get introuble for saying to try that because alcohol with benzodiazpines is anaother story... but i thought it may "force" you to get to sleep instead of the baseball bat, and no im not trying to be funny at all, even that was funny, just dont do to yourself ROFL.
yBOW thanks, rerember where cousins.... well you said we where a while back. Rerember me rj?
Matt
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 1:19:36
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » laima, posted by yxibow on February 16, 2007, at 2:37:26
> >
>
> That's because Xyrem (GHB) is dangerous and was only brought back for a specific disorder. Your doctor can get their license yanked.
Not true,xyrem was recently given the go ahead for OFF LABEL use,so its up to the docters discression to use it for something as common as clinical insomnia which it is being used for,even though as u stated its FDA approval is initialy for narcolepsy.
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 1:37:00
In reply to Re: What about Kava Kava? or Valerian Root?, posted by rjlockhart on February 16, 2007, at 23:18:49
Kava Kava is not ideal for sleep,it has at the least 15 known active constitutes (lactones) and it has many different varying effects,this is why it is for some very theprutic because of the WIDE window range of effects.
However so many brands were removed due to the liver scare,which btw was if looked up determined unreliable and could not be officialy verfied,still the short time of the RED LABEL demand was enogh to decrease the manf of it to only a handful of brands if that.
I remember GNC had caps that were so potent and worked so well i was doing really good,now gone you wont find it except in some weak tead but the herb no longer sits on its shelf.
You can order it in bulk offline,and there are claims to how potent the kava is,but i actualy prefered getting two or three top brans,i.e GNC,SOLARAY,SOLGAR,and mixing,always worked.
Those brands are all gone now.I believe natrol,vitamin shoppe and a few others are left,and after numerous trials it just doesent seem like the kava i once knew.In germany kava was even a script drug,thats where the whole liver thing started,actual cases of liver toxcity OFFICIAL to kava are nill to none reported here in U.S,but fda got there goal and scared the media hyped public into loosing yet antoher good over the counter aid.
Valerian does affect gaba,ITS IS NOT KAVA,FAR FROM IT,personaly i wouldent touch it with a ten foot pole.But some people do use and like it for sleep.
The previous poster is right,gaba cant cross into the brain with out a carrier,some known over the counter gaba substances would be,L theanine - said to raise both gaba.dopamine levels.
Picamilion - Gaba attached to niacin to cross over.
Phenibutt - Said to be closes thing totaly legal to ghb,affects gaba and pea,dont know much about how it works however,but do know its either loved or hated.
Taurine - doesent directly effect gaba,but is similiar to anti convuslants like lamicatal and so on,and does OVER ALL effect gaba production.
Med wise,the strongest gaba drug is actualy GABATRIL,and is actualy not used much at all,which shows pure gaba is not the entire issue.Nuerontion - i use and like this drug,again doesent effec gaba directly,but over does.
FYI First kava kava has very weak if NO affect on benzo sites which is why its not a replacment of a benzo.Also GHB is actualy not a major gaba drug,rather it surpresses dopamine,and has effects on numerous other things.
Pure gaba isnt the answer,if it were GABAITRIL,a gaba ruptake drug would be very popular,while instead most people hate it.
Personaly i recomend the above for over the counter and the above for drug use.
Gaba itself will prob do nothing more than make u tingle.
Posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous, posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 1:19:36
> > >
> >
> > That's because Xyrem (GHB) is dangerous and was only brought back for a specific disorder. Your doctor can get their license yanked.
>
>
> Not true,xyrem was recently given the go ahead for OFF LABEL use,so its up to the docters discression to use it for something as common as clinical insomnia which it is being used for,even though as u stated its FDA approval is initialy for narcolepsy.
Any drug can theoretically be used off-label in the US. That doesn't mean that it will be used off-label, as there have not been peer-reviewed studies that sufficiently place it in the realm of antidepressant use that psychiatrists would feel comfortable enough to use it because others are already doing so and they collaborate.I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be examined, but it is not as harmless as previously thought. That's why its C-III, which is written on tamper proof pads or triplicates depending on your state.
This psychiatrist promoted Xyrem for off-label use and the publicity got him in rather major troublehttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/business/22drugdoc.html?ex=1171861200&en=aa8915409cf87521&ei=5070
That is what I'm talking about why some psychiatrists are conservative about the off-label use of medication. To make an example, my psychiatrist is not a GP or a back doctor. However, he has the go-ahead from my GP to prescribe Robaxin because the two have collaborated and I have signed a consent form for inter-communication and it is easier to renew the medications in one spot. But even with the drug, there were P450 interactions that might not have been picked up by someone not knowledgable in Serotonin Syndrome. Robaxin is an old agent and was never tested against P450. So we reduced the dose a bit.
I don't think you would want your psychiatrist say, prescribing antibiotics. They've been through medical school, but it is out of their realm of practice. An exception might be if you were on Clozaril or Remeron and developed agranulocytosis and a confirmed infection. Then he or she might prescribe preventative care with or without collaboration with your GP. Most likely would refer you to the ER in fact.
The same can be said that I don't think most GPs should be prescribing major pscyhoactive substances, especially neuroleptics, etc., because they don't have the training to recognize signs of EPS and TD, unless they have taken CE credits.
Sometimes in a small town it is necessary for a GP to prescribe a psychoactive substance such as, oh, Prozac, say. But I'd feel more comfortable if the individual took CE credits on how the P450 interactive system works.-- tidings.
Posted by laima on February 17, 2007, at 8:17:02
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » willyee, posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
A warning about kava, I discovered it can sometimes flip into being a stimulant for some mysterious reason. This is not even a matter of the brand, it's the kava itself. It happened to me before, and googeling "kava" and "stimulant" together produced a fair amount of results describing kava's use as a stimulant. Perhaps it's got to do with what someone above mentioned- it affects a large, wide range of receptors. I imagine that makes it a premium candidate to interact unpredictably with other medications and substances. Meanwhile, Medline gives it an "A" for anxiety, and they hardly ever give "A"s to any herbal supplements. Valerian is far more subtle, but far more predictable, too.
Posted by TheMeanReds on February 17, 2007, at 10:40:49
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 20:16:09
When I tried Valerian root for the first time for sleep, it was the dried type in caps. It smelled so funky I asked my roommate to put his shoes outside. I didnt know it was the valerian.
Then I went to Wild Oats, they sell something called 'phyto' valerian caps. They dont smell and it is alot more concentrated.
Also when I was taking remeron, it was a very small dose. A quarter of a half of a whole pill, that looked like advil in color. I can never remember what mgs on some pills because they have so many different mg pills.
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 13:37:51
In reply to Re: Sleep Ridiculous » willyee, posted by yxibow on February 17, 2007, at 2:55:34
Oh dont get me wrong,i wasnt implying because a drug can be used OFF LABEL that it should be just thrown in a mix.
Id expect and hope,anyone dealing wit GHB/XYREM know a great deal about it,it just happens to be one substance i do,and it is very potent,as im sure you know its EXTREMLY dose dependent,meaning a min dose can be the differance of just right,and needing medical attention or being ill.
Its a powerful substance,however im glad its allowed off label as knowing it i feel if used right it can offer a lot to emotional disorders,but again once must read and learn about it.
Also side note,using both GHB when it was legal,and xyrem,in lamons terms i can say xyrem must be diluted or some change,when i used ghb i used it from various supplement companies and it was ALWAYS POWERFUL to the mg of a dose,xyrem however is very very forgiving in its dosage,not to say im sure it carries the same dangers of misuse.
I had contacted the company,and was told it is allowed for off label use via the docs discression,but like you say im sure this does not give a doc or patient a free ticket to ride as im sure even so its still watched when presribed,and just so.I am disapointed though at the lact of involvment my local docs even want to put in to using it,i had one after a sleep study willing to until they learned they would have to do some leg work as its not as simple as merly writing out the script,upon hearing this they then shrugged it off and instead choose a conventional sleep drug that i already knew does not help.
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 13:41:08
In reply to Re: kava, posted by laima on February 17, 2007, at 8:17:02
One thing i actualy LOVED about GOOD kava was the fact it provided anxiety relieaf without HOWEVER the stupour that most sedatives bring,i.e alcholol,benzos,ghb,etc.
Kava had an amazing effect of numbing the body of anxiety,yet stimulating the mind to where i actualy performed casual tasks such as driving,and many cognitive activities even better !!!!!
Now all the remaining brands seem to do is make my stomach ill,and make me dozy a bit,nothing like the kava i once valued so much.
Posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 13:50:36
In reply to Xyrem/GHB, posted by Quintal on February 16, 2007, at 9:54:44
GHB is not pleasant stuff...in fact it is downright dangerous.
http://www.projectghb.org/while_sleeping/sld001.htm
Posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 15:39:02
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 13:50:36
>GHB is not pleasant stuff...in fact it is downright dangerous.
GHB is pleasant stuff when used sensibly. I could make a similarly melodramatic pamphlet about alcohol if I were in such a frame of mind - the hundreds, amybe thousands who choke on their vomit; commit acts of violence while under the influence; cause road accidents; become addicted and ruin their lives; become promiscuous and contract fatal or damaging STDs; be promiscuous and end up pregnant leading to abortions and single motherhood; wander into snowdrifts on New Year's Eve and die of exposure.......etc, etc, etc, Y-A-W-N.........
GHB is *powerful* stuff however, and as such is not entirely safe in the hands of fools and the unwise. Just like cars, machine guns, alcohol and other powerful drugs. I think it's a shame people let that be an excuse for depriving the rest of us of useful substances.
Q
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 16:02:12
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB » Quintal, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 13:50:36
> GHB is not pleasant stuff...in fact it is downright dangerous.
>
> http://www.projectghb.org/while_sleeping/sld001.htm
>
>
<FYI: The above site is notoriously Anti Ghb,any thing else even to debate this in any way shape or form IS NOT ALLOWED on this site,it is run by woman named Trina who has made a career via anti ghb,there are many nuertral sites where one can get a balanced pro/con view of the drug,this site is not one of them.>This website is the first hit you will get if you type in GHB,a woman named Trinka made a career off of Anti - GHB,any sight that is so absurdly pro or con as in this case of something i believe one should take with a lot of salt.
If someone uses a search engine and wants to go as far as the first hit then this is what theyll get,if however they are willing to actualy take a few mintues,theyll also find that......
GHB was first brought about by a Dr Henri Laborit a Nobel Prize Nominee and also the same doc who brought about Thorazine which at the time became the only option that freed hospitals of lobotomys.
GHB was already a precription drug twice over,named ALCOVER in italy for alcholol withdrawal,and Gamma Oh in germany.The usa came down on these meds until they were outlawed.
GHB had numerous IND`S,which are clinical trials and interest ranging from anti depressant use to restless leg syndrome among tons of other things.
GHB is Non toxic,unlike aclholol which leaves the body via the liver in the form of methanol a toxin,ghb instead metabloizes into H20,water,thats it,about as toxic as it gets in pure form,other than the sodium intake etc.
I listed the pros because that site you listed is unfair and extremly biased,your not even allowed to mention or debate anything on it,everything is anti ghb and if its not it will not be allowed.
The cons of this drug is that it is extremly powerful,and used too often by morons who dont research it first,not only that it can be very addicting and also worsen depression since it is a depressant,its all in how its dosed.
GHB is a substance with tons of pros and cons,and should be weighed heavly before use,however a con that does not exsist to me is DATE RAPE,alcholol is the biggest date rape factor to date,and even achlolol shouldent be to blame,unless there is force a person should not be drinking around people or situations where they can end in harms way,and if unfortnatly they do,then it is a criminal act and the person/persons are the people at fault.Unless u tell me someone mistakenly took acholol thinking it was pepsi and due to this wondered aimlessy into the arms of a stranger,then any substance can be used in the willing eyes of a criminal.
Just because one substance is easier for a evil person to use doesent make the substance to blame.
Posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 16:57:26
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB, posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 16:02:12
Quintal and Willyee,
Point taken. It is however illegal and thus unobtainable by conventional means. Casting my mind back I did read a favourable article on GBH
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ghb/authentic.html
If this drug has potential for patient welfare why is it banned? And why is it not unbanned?
ronaldo
Posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 17:12:22
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB fao Quintal and Willyee, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 16:57:26
GHB was available in the UK until 2003 when the government decided to follow the example of the US and ban it (and with more than a little pressure to do so from that country).
>If this drug has potential for patient welfare why is it banned? And why is it not unbanned?
GHB is available in some circumstances as Xyrem for a small subset of patients. It seems unlikely it will ever be legalized given that so many voters would oppose such a move if proposed by government because of opinions like those posed here by yourself.
Q
Posted by willyee on February 17, 2007, at 20:01:00
In reply to Re: Xyrem/GHB fao Quintal and Willyee, posted by ronaldo on February 17, 2007, at 16:57:26
> Quintal and Willyee,
>
> Point taken. It is however illegal and thus unobtainable by conventional means. Casting my mind back I did read a favourable article on GBH
>
> http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ghb/authentic.html
>
> If this drug has potential for patient welfare why is it banned? And why is it not unbanned?
>
> ronaldoA natural substance has a legal procedure to follow before it is removed from shevles,HOWEVER if it is presented as a clear immediate danger,then that is a loop hole to yank it with no objection.
The date rape hysteria did just that,now while i dont downplay any incidents where it was a culprit,i DO HOWEVER take dismay at how fast the public is to follow suit on media hype.The average person doesent even know what GHB is until you say the DATE RAPE DRUG,then you get the OOOHH OKKK NOW I KNOW.Also the numbers of its involvment in actual date rapes compared to those of simple acholol are laughable by comparison.
One could argue this was done to make the substance unobtainable unless through expensive prescription means.
Consider this,legaly GHB was obtainable on pennies on the doller from various stores,as a prescription drug its cost skyrockted to,i believe and im not sure here,but close to 500 bucks with no insurance.Knowing myself the simple ingredients of it,thats a hell of a mark up.
That well and said,to be fair,on the flip side of the coin it is also EXTREMLY EXTREMLY EXTREMLY dose dependant,meaning a 2mg dose could be just enough,and unless your carefully raising it,i.e 2.5,2.8 with the aid of a scale,a simple mg raise of say 2.5 - 2.8 could be the differance of a person getting very sick.So its not something that should be on GNC shelf for little tommy and his friends to buy.
Its a delicate matter,but one thing for sure is i dont believe it should be demonized as it is,and i do believe it should be held in some manner for a option as many many people have used it saftly for decades for sleep and anxiety depression etc,and now that its gone have turned to alcholol and very impure means of obtaining ghb analouges which are first unsafe,and second hold a extremly high criminal penality.
FYI: The day a huge bust OPERATION WEBSLINGER where ghb suppliers went from the slap on the wrist to 10 plus years in prison happened to be the exact day before xyrems arrival.
Posted by KayeBaby on February 18, 2007, at 2:12:04
In reply to Sleep Ridiculous, posted by Phillipa on February 15, 2007, at 12:45:31
Phillipa,
Lyrica is great for a deep,restorative sleep. I think it actually helps you to get in the later stages. When I took it for sleep purposes I slept so well, woke with a smile and felt the relaxion effects linger throughout the day.It seems to be fairly benign in side effects and gave me the best sleep ever.
Cal/mag before bed, Taurine and maybe L-theanine are worth trying too.
Peace,
Kaye
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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