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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
As you might know, I saw my pdoc for the first time after a five week break this past Tuesday. The session went much better than I expected, thankfully. There was one thing my pdoc asked, though, which has got me more than a little confused.
One thing which has come up repeatedly in therapy is this sense I have of being somehow inherently... well, the best way I've been able to articulate it thus far is that I feel like, at heart, I am something like a sideshow freak: contorted and fashioned so that I cannot help but be flawed, and people may tolerate me for a while or maybe even be interested, but how could they stay once they really knew me? I don't know exactly how to put it, and I'm not sure my pdoc knows quite what I mean either. Anyway, whenever I've brought up the theme, he generally will say that he doesn't see the thing that I fear I am.
We talked about this a bit last session, and he said that he didn't think I came across as obnoxious, annoying, etc. as I claim myself to be. He saw how I have a pattern of wanting to be close with people but always being disappointed somehow, but didn't see why this should universally be the case. I tried to clarify what I meant, but wasn't too successful. Then he did something rather interesting; he asked me to be annoying with him.
I ended up saying "Well, you know, I'd really rather not. People tend to LEAVE when I get annoying, and that hurts, and I may as well have somewhere to complain about it, right?" And that was the end of that. But I really didn't know how to respond! I see my annoyingness (it isn't just that, but that's the part he focused on so I'll use that word in this post) as something so inherent to who I am that I can't just turn it off at will. Maybe the setting of therapy makes me less likely to act that way and it isn't so apparent, but all the same I've been in it so long and said so many things which would, at the very least, give my pdoc a pretty good idea of how deeply vile and flawed I am, so I'm absolutely mystified as to how he could go without seeing it, if indeed he does not see it. (Right now it seems most logical to me that he's lying... but I may as well look for an alternate explanation.) The only thing I can think of is that in therapy I can, in theory, be completely honest and don't have to worry about holding it all together - that I have to do this otherwise sometimes makes me feel and act awkward. I don't think that that accounts completely for it, though, so I don't know what to think.
Wow, I think I've confused myself just by writing this. I just found the question odd and figured I'd post. Any thoughts? How would you respond if your T asked you something like this?
Posted by Susan47 on September 10, 2004, at 23:30:26
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
If my therapist had asked me to be annoying I would've just continued on being who I am.
And that would've been annoying.
Because I am annoying too.
It's like a sign pasted to my back
Always there, invisible to me
most of the time but others
always tune into it when
I least expect them to. Whew.
Posted by Klokka on September 11, 2004, at 0:08:59
In reply to Re: How to respond to this?, posted by Susan47 on September 10, 2004, at 23:30:26
This sounds all too familiar. If I understand you correctly, it's something like what I was trying to get at in my post. For what it's worth, I haven't seen anything in your posts to make me think you're annoying. I wish I had something more helpful to say, but I'm totally clueless when it comes to dealing with this sort of issue.
Posted by DaisyM on September 11, 2004, at 1:20:41
In reply to Re: How to respond to this? » Susan47, posted by Klokka on September 11, 2004, at 0:08:59
Klokka,
I think this is a technique to try to get you to see that you aren't as terrible as you think you are...because when you make a list, it either isn't as bad or as long as you may envision it.
He also may have been trying to prove he can "take it" all from you. No matter what. It sounds like he has done this for you many times and deserves your trust.
I have had this experience when describing myself as "bad" or "flawed". He asked me to tell him why I was "bad" but I refused. (I was in a very regressed place so it was all little kid words -- like bad.) I didn't want to make him a list before he left for vacations, because, just as you said, people who discover your inner self often leave. I was already freaked out enough that he might not come back. He said we need to come back to this, but so far we haven't.
I think your therapist is trying to get you to think about how you really come across, vs. how you think you come across. And perhaps, see behaviors that could be changed.
If you look at it that way, it is a very productive question. (I don't find you annoying at all, btw.)
Hugs!
Daisy
Posted by lucy stone on September 11, 2004, at 6:52:08
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
I'm annoying too, and I can be annoying and worse than annoying to me T. I'm not annoying in the same ways with him that I am with others, though. In my analysis I have found that I use some of my annoying behaviors as a defense to keep other people away from me. Lately I have been describing the way I behave in situations where I am anxious and trying to keep people away. We talk about it and he suggests ways that I could have handled the situation to get what I want (keeping people away) without being as annoying. I know he hopes to get to the place where I don't want to keep people away! Instead of acting in the way that you see as annoying in your Ts office, could you describe a sitiuation where you were acting in that way? Maybe he could see what you mean and help you with it. BTW, I know I am annoying even here, and it has annoyed at least one poster :(
Posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 11:24:56
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
I have always had a similar belief about myself, at least myself-in-relation-to-others. I might not use the same words to describe it, but I think it's probably similar. I don't do role playing therapy exercises well, so I'm not sure what I would do.
I do know it's a hard idea to shake. Especially if it stays amorphous. So perhaps your therapist was just trying to help you make the idea more concrete.
Posted by Susan47 on September 11, 2004, at 12:20:42
In reply to Re: How to respond to this? » Susan47, posted by Klokka on September 11, 2004, at 0:08:59
I wonder if your pdoc or T also feel clueless how to deal with the issue, because he doesn't see the annoying part of you at all. Hmh. I'll bet you're a lovely person. So many lovely, hurt people running around in this world, it's not right.
Posted by JenStar on September 11, 2004, at 13:27:28
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
Klokka,
you're probably a lot less annoying than you think you are. Maybe your T is trying to say to you: "Klokka, no matter how annoying YOU think you are, I will still like you and continue to see you. You're not that bad!" He's giving you the chance to show your worst so HE can show you it's not all that bad, after all.Or maybe he senses that you use your supposed obnoxious behavior to drive people away when they start to get too close, so that you don't have to suffer the pain/humiliation of THEM severing ties down the road (so you do it first), and he's showing you that here it won't work -- he likes you, you're NOT going to drive him away, no matter what you do...???
Yes, I totally made this stuff up -- but I think it's good to look on the bright side of things! Assume that you are NOT flawed, you're NOT annoying, you're NOT a freak. You're a great person who just is afraid of intimacy, or lacks expertise in developing relationships...he can help you improve, maybe?
Those are just my own 'possible scenario' thoughts. For what it's worth, based on what I read here, you don't seem annoying or obnoxious at all! :)
I hope you feel up to sharing more of the details from your next session and tell us how it goes.
Take care! thinking kind thoughts for you...
JenStar
PS -- I too have those feelings sometimes where I think that I'm just too different from the 'general population' to be liked... I don't use the same words to describe it as you do, but I think it sort of gets at the same root emotion. The way I try to get past this when it arises is: focus on my good friends, remind myself that they DO like me; focus on my wonderful husband & family, who DO like me...etc. It's hard but I KNOW there are people out there who love you, too -- don't forget about them! :) And of course, we are your friends here on the board... hopefully that can give you a smile too. :)
Posted by shortelise on September 11, 2004, at 13:31:05
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
Klokka, who isn't annoying sometimes?
How many people have you worked with, gone to school with, sat next to in a restaurant that have made you want to slap them?
I felt the same way you do, and I figured out what it was that made me have that behaviour. I felt small, insignifigant, ugly and stupid so I went out of my way to act big, important, attractive and intelligent. That's obnoxious, MY personal variety of obnoxious.
Once I began to understand that the kind of treatment I liked from others is the way I should treat them, I became less obnoxious, less annoying.
And as I began to treat people with kindness and respect, I found that they treated me the same, and when they didn't, I knew it was about them and not about me.
I am telling you this to explain that I had to understand where it comes from, that my family was screwed up, and I was the scapegoat, according to them the problem was me, not anyone else. When anything was wrong, it was because of something I had done - or so I began to think after being blamed so many times. Then it became that I was crazy, mentally off. No one but me.
This extended into the rest of my life, so that if someone at Macdonald's treated me with a sneer, I thought I somehow deserved that sneer and reacted with arrogance and ignorance.
I hope this translates into something that makes sense for you.
ShortE
Posted by Racer on September 11, 2004, at 13:50:28
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
Dunno.
Recently, in the course of a nightmare with treatment, I asked our marriage counselor to call the pdoc and say that, "yes, Racer can be difficult to deal with..." and she cut me off right there. She said, "I can't say that, because I've never found you to be difficult at all."
Now, once I got over the shock, I realized that it's not absolute. I do think I'm difficult. And I've been told many times that I'm difficult, which has solidified that belief. When you really come down to it, though, the only people who say I'm difficult are people who are not making any effort to get along with me! Anyone who's ever made any effort to meet me partway -- not even halfway, just a little bit of the way -- has seemed to change their mind about how 'difficult' I am. Some have even said as much.
So, you could try to look at it from a little more distance: are the people who call you annoying or obnoxious people who are making any effort to get along with you? It could be a sign of strength, that you're maintaining your own Self even when others are pushing you not to. That you're maintaining your own boundaries against attacks from others.
Of course, it's also possible that you're annoying and I'm difficult. But I'll bet that those qualities actually reflect an area of strength in both of us.
Hope that helps.
Posted by Susan47 on September 11, 2004, at 16:40:22
In reply to Re: How to respond to this?, posted by lucy stone on September 11, 2004, at 6:52:08
....here's my philosophy, just for the heck of it. Nobody can stop anybody from being annoyed with them; somebody's always annoyed with somebody and it's *all* projection. All of Life is Projection, all of it. That's why therapists'll never be out of business. I mean good lord, once you realize how projection works, you can keep doing it to your "patients" as much as you want! I mean, what power? I sound bitter don't I. Argh.
Posted by Susan47 on September 11, 2004, at 16:51:04
In reply to Hi, lucy stone..., posted by Susan47 on September 11, 2004, at 16:40:22
They really are trying to help us, not manipulate us. Well, at least they're trying to manipulate us into a better position to tackle life? I'm sorry everybody, this girl is confused as usual, now who's a pain, huh Klokka?? :))
Posted by Klokka on September 13, 2004, at 20:56:08
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
Thanks to all for posting. I've been wanting to respond, but it's been a rough week and it's sooo hard to find words. I think I'll ask my pdoc what the purpose to the question was, if there's time. I'm finding myself increasingly unable to cope with just plain living and I don't know what to do, so I guess that'll have to come up first. I won't do anything harmful, at least not at this point, but it's so frustrating. I think I made a very big mistake by registering for a difficult program in college - right now I see no way I'm going to get through it unless my pdoc happens to have a miracle or two up his sleeve. If only things worked that way...
Posted by gardenergirl on September 13, 2004, at 22:43:43
In reply to Maybe I'll ask next time, posted by Klokka on September 13, 2004, at 20:56:08
Sweetie,
Is there anyway you can drop down a class and still maintain full time status? I know from the undergrads I used to work with last year, that it was very hard for them to consider this, as they were almost all achievement-oriented. But please think about the bigger picture...do you want to be 40 with your degree and relatively well? Or do you want to be 40 without your degree because you pushed yourself too hard? I'm not saying that you can't handle it. I'm just saying that everyone's path needs to be what's right for them. Not what your parents or advisors or professors say. What your gut says.I am living proof, at least I like to think so, that you can take FOREVER to get your degree and still be a success.
Be well,
gg
Posted by just plain jane on September 14, 2004, at 0:47:09
In reply to Re: Maybe I'll ask next time » Klokka, posted by gardenergirl on September 13, 2004, at 22:43:43
Posted by Klokka on September 14, 2004, at 6:25:50
In reply to Re: Maybe I'll ask next time » Klokka, posted by gardenergirl on September 13, 2004, at 22:43:43
I'm not entirely sure I can. It's not that I'd lose full-time status - I need 12 hours for that and right now I have 28-30 (just a bit above average for science students at my college) - it's just that I'm in a small program and I don't know if it's feasible. I asked whether I could take the program in three years instead of two when I went in to preregister, and was told it wasn't very feasible. Then again, I know it has been done in the past. I think I'll ask my program coordinator, since I have to talk to him soon anyway. I realize this year might be like last, where I stressed and was sure I'd fail and very much did not, but at the same time, this isn't high school anymore and things are bound to catch up with me eventually.
Thanks for the suggestion. I get so overwhelmed thinking about how long schooling could possibly take me (I could be in for a good 12 more years if I'm able to do what I most want to, though that isn't likely) that I forget that adding another year or two won't be the end of the world.
Posted by TexasChic on September 14, 2004, at 16:11:05
In reply to How to respond to this?, posted by Klokka on September 10, 2004, at 21:44:17
This must be some sort of phenomenon or something because I feel the same way too. I guess it has to do with society's view of mental illness. If we're flawed in any way, we feel like freaks. And ever since I've been learning to be more assertive, I feel annoying as h*ll. But other people have personality flaws and we're not as hard on them. I think people with depression just have a hard time believing their opinion is as important as anyone else's. But why should we feel that way? Other people don't care that much. They just do and say what they want. But this is part of who we are and is a key part of our personality. It helps us be more compassionate and sensitive to others. At least, that's what I like to believe.
As for how to answer your T, I would have a hard time with that too. I mean, I can't fake my personality. But I agree with the others that he was trying to show you you're not as annoying as you think. You have the right to an opinion too!
This is the end of the thread.
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