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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 12:13:26
In reply to new developments, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
Be wise to the pattern from before. Your first post mentioned what a great manipulator you think she is. I think Falls is absolutely right that you should have another person lined up before you terminate. You will have a lot of healing to do. Hope you can get off the roller-coaster soon.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 14:39:41
In reply to Re: new developments » crushedout, posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 12:13:26
Hi crushed,
I'm so glad that new T called and that you made an appointment. Talk about timing! I agree with the others that having someone lined up ahead of time likely will be better in the long run. Your goal is taking care of you. Perhaps it feels like "cheating on" your T? It's not! Your goal is taking care of you. As hard as it might be, really try to separate feelings for your T, your understanding of her feelings, and your anxiety (perhaps) about change from your ultimate goal...wellness. Keep your focus there, and how sure you felt last night. I'm sure it was nice to get the email from your T, but will that really change how things go in therapy with her?I'm so proud of you for taking steps for YOU! And at such a difficult time. Crushed, I think you have hidden strength that is coming out now when you need it.
Good luck tomorrow and please remember we are here for you and with you in spirit.
(((((crushedout))))
gg
Posted by Rigby on October 31, 2004, at 15:36:05
In reply to new developments, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
Hi Crushed,
It seems like, from what you've written (both good and bad about your therapist) you are suffering with some very painful feelings of transference. I think this therapist has been meaningful enough, clearly, for her to trigger these emotions. But she may possibly not be good enough to help you through. One could argue that most of the work done in therapy is done by the client (she probably thinks this) and that transference can't be brute forced but, still, after x number of years of feeling like crap over this woman I think you need to save yourself. So, yeah, definitely get a second opinion. I'd try anything and see what feels right and good. You're sick and tired of feeling sick and tired. And yes, there's a lot going on with you but what's remained consistent is this emotionally painful situation with your therapist. To try and get another opinion and to get help with your pain is not wrong. If you think of it in medical terms it'll maybe seem clearer.
As far as telling your therapist or not, if you were sick and one doc wasn't helping would you feel obliged to tell him or her that you were trying something else? I know it's not apples to apples but I guess it's important for all of us to demystify this supposed power a therapist has over us. They're professionals designed to help navigate us through a variety of personal issues. It's hard I think for anyone intensely involved in therapy to think about this is such detached terms but if you can find a moment in your brain or heart even to get clinical about it it may help. **Much** easier said than done, especially if your therapist screwed up their boundaries.
Anyway, there's no right or wrong. Keep writing--we'll support you either way, old T-rex or new. ;)
> Thanks to both of you, falls and Annie, for your posts and wise advice. I think you both make excellent points.
>
> Everything's constantly changing. It's like a freakin' roller coaster ride and I can't get off the dang thing. This morning when I checked my email, I found a kind message from my T. I had emailed her on Friday right after putting my kitty to sleep and then again on Saturday, apologizing for having been so melodramatic on Friday. As the days went by and I didn't hear back from her, I think I was growing increasingly angry at her because I was assuming she had gotten my emails but just didn't care enough to write back. That, on top of everything else, inspired the rage I was in last night when I wrote that post.
>
> So, when I got her nice email, my anger melted away somewhat, and I felt pretty scared that I was going back to the stuck place I've been in for G*d knows how long with her. And that I was gonna let you all down, which I hate doing. But a lot of the stuff I wrote last night (all of it?) was true, and I can't just forget about it because she's good at making me feel like she cares about me and I'm a sucker for her.
>
> Anyway, the second important development, which happened right after I got her email, was that this therapist I called last week called me and said she had a cancellation for tomorrow morning so she can see me. We have an appointment at 10:30.
>
> I'm a little scared now. Do I tell my T? I know she will be mad. I've done this before. She will have wanted to know about it beforehand. Well, at least maybe this new T can help me figure out what to do. I wish we had more than 45 minutes to talk about this. It feels huge.
>
> I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again for your insight.
Posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 13:53:42
In reply to Perfect Timing » crushedout, posted by Rigby on October 31, 2004, at 15:36:05
I agree with the others.
Transference, connections, any feelings that you are friends; thus letting yourself feel guilty about leaving her, are ALL beside the point.
We are PAYING these people to counsel us; they are not our friends. We are not responsible for their feelings; we ARE PAYING them to be responsible for ours, and for teaching us how to grow emotionally stronger so that we don't NEED anyone to be responsible for our feelings other than ourselves.
If you feel that she is not teaching you to grow, then you need to be paying someone who does.
I do believe, along with everyone here, that you should have another T lined up before "quitting"- which, by the way, I think you might want to try calling "firing her"- try making the feeling one of empowerment for you, not failure.
It has helped me to "fire" my last T.
My current T is trying to teach me to be "safe" within myself, with no one as a crutch- but with a caveat; everyone needs a support network if only to bounce ideas off of when you can't seem to find that "safe" place within yourself.
You notice I said she's TRYING to teach me- whether I can actually learn/believe it is still to be discovered...
Chin up, we're here to bounce your ideas off!
-sunny10
Posted by fallsfall on November 1, 2004, at 14:38:21
In reply to new developments, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
Posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
In reply to How was your appointment? (nm) » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 1, 2004, at 14:38:21
It went ok. It felt like nowhere near enough time and I was scattered and disjointed. But we have another appointment next Monday. And -- here's the biggest news -- I told my usual T that I have to take a two-week break. I cancelled our sessions for the next two weeks, told her it was a difficult decision, and that I would let her know if I ended up needing a longer break. I told her she didn't need to call me back unless she had a problem with that she needed to discuss.I just felt like I needed distance from her to effectively sort out my feelings about her and figure out what I need to do.
I'm thinking of writing her a letter explaining this to her (I didn't explain any of *why* I needed a break -- only that I needed one and that it was difficult). Do you think it's a good idea? Or should I just let her wonder. I guess, once again, I'm worrying too much about her feelings, and I should just be taking care of myself. Interesting to note, anyway.
I'll write more soon if I can.
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 5:01:37
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
Quickly, I'm glad things went okay with T2. I think it's understandable that it was scattered.
You had a lot of information to discuss in a limited time frame. Happy you'll be seeing her next week.
To answer your question, I don't think you should write T1 a letter. Give yourself the 2 weeks to try and sort out your feelings. And more time if necessary. This is all about you right now. And always should be. Good Luck, time to vote and work the polls!!
Posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 6:24:08
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
Excellent.
I agree with AnnieRose, you don't need to send a letter. You don't need to justify yourself. You have said that you need a break. That is sufficient. You can talk to the new therapist about how to handle this with her.
I'm really glad that you have achieved some distance.
Do you like this new therapist? Is it someone you would see yourself sticking with? You can interview a couple of therapists if you aren't completely sold on this one - or if you need to see "what's out there" so you can feel more confident with your choice if you switch.
Good for you!
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 8:40:08
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
One more thought ... sending a letter is sort of like you are asking permission if this is alright.
It is alright. This is your journey. It is hard to leave a T. Been there. But I think you are on the right path.
Posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:13:04
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 6:24:08
No, I can't see myself having the consultant as my T, but I knew that she wouldn't be my T going in, since she's very inconveniently located for me and too expensive. I don't want to interview therapists! I don't have the money or the strength or the time or the energy. I don't want to.
Man, all of a sudden I'm really mad I'm doing this. This is a total waste of time. I'm just going to go back to her and we're going to have to repair all this damage I'm doing.
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 21:29:38
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:13:04
I don't think you are doing any damage. You are just seeking more information. And knowledge is always a good thing (unless you are George Bush).
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else ... it's election night and I couldn't help myself. Any T worth their salt should support your explorations.
Insight is good. It sounds like you are ready to go back with your T. Then you need to let her know what led you down this other path. Something is missing.
Posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:33:39
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 21:29:38
Sorry, no, I'm not at all ready to go back. I was just panicking and venting. I really don't want to shop for another T. I may well end up deciding not to have a T at all. I dunno. But I think exploring leaving my T (and how best to do that, if I decide to) is almost surely worthwhile.
Posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 21:56:51
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:13:04
Shopping for a therapist is incredibly hard. But it is REALLY worth it.
I will be happy to share my experiences with you, and let you know what helped me and what didn't help.
Don't give up and go back to her yet. You need to explore what it would mean to leave her. Stay the course for at least a little longer!
Posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:58:30
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 21:56:51
you had to pay to see each t, right? i hate that. yes, i will probably like to hear about your experiences. thanks, falls. :( (feeling frustrated and gloomy, but staying the course)
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 22:34:09
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:58:30
Glad to hear you are "staying the course" ... it will be worth it! FYI ... I got, I think, 3 consultations when I was going through this process. Not sure what I was looking for, but in the end, I figured, if I'm this uncertain, I had to leave. No T said, "this is 100% sure what you need to do." I don't think you'll get that response. But I did get asked some questions that had me think. And I believe (this was 15+ years ago) it took close to a year to finally quit.
Posted by fallsfall on November 3, 2004, at 8:52:24
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:58:30
Yes, I had to pay (though I have heard that some therapists do provide free interviews (perhaps something less than 45 minutes, though). My insurance payed for them. I'm not sure exactly how this works if you have a limit to the number of sessions that will be paid (Since I have a biological diagnosis - Major Depression - my insurance had to pay for whatever sessions were "medically necessary".) Somewhere in the back of my mind something is saying that somebody (I don't know who) said that some insurance (mine?) would pay for 4 - 6 interviews - or would authorize sessions more frequently for the interview process?? This "memory" is fairly fuzzy.
In any event, you should be able to do a reasonable phone interview (10 minutes?) before scheduling an appointment (you don't want to see a therapist who won't allow a reasonable phone interview). And if you can get recommendations from people you trust, your chances of finding good people to interview goes way up.
Let me know when/if you want details about my search and my decision process.
Falls.
Posted by Rigby on November 3, 2004, at 12:25:38
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
Hi Crushed,
How are you doing? This all sounds like progress, although painful, for sure.
I think it took a lot of courage to take the break. And to ask that she not contact you. I hope that you are having some glimmers of feeling differently--perhaps stronger, perhaps more clear headed admist what probably feels like a lot of loss and pain.
Keep us posted, okay?
> It went ok. It felt like nowhere near enough time and I was scattered and disjointed. But we have another appointment next Monday. And -- here's the biggest news -- I told my usual T that I have to take a two-week break. I cancelled our sessions for the next two weeks, told her it was a difficult decision, and that I would let her know if I ended up needing a longer break. I told her she didn't need to call me back unless she had a problem with that she needed to discuss.
>
> I just felt like I needed distance from her to effectively sort out my feelings about her and figure out what I need to do.
>
> I'm thinking of writing her a letter explaining this to her (I didn't explain any of *why* I needed a break -- only that I needed one and that it was difficult). Do you think it's a good idea? Or should I just let her wonder. I guess, once again, I'm worrying too much about her feelings, and I should just be taking care of myself. Interesting to note, anyway.
>
> I'll write more soon if I can.
Posted by crushedout on November 3, 2004, at 20:53:48
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by Rigby on November 3, 2004, at 12:25:38
Hey Rigby. It's been such a rough couple weeks: my parents left the country, I broke up with my boyfriend (and we're not getting along) (which is all good but still just a big change since I'm back to being alone all the time), my cat died, I took the break from my T, and then Bush was re-elected. It's enough to make me want to cash in my chips. But I keep thinking about this Bob Dylan lyric: "When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose." In other words, there's freedom in all this loss and misery. I'm trying to look on the bright side, can you tell? I know, I could use help in this department. Not my strong suit.But you weren't asking in general. Yes, about the T, I feel good in a way. Yeah, stronger, assertive. I'm taking charge of the situation, not just being a victim. Telling her the way I did -- and asking her not to contact me -- was assertive and, for once, it did not feel passive aggressive. I was *not* doing it to hurt her, or to get a reaction out of her. I was just doing it to take care of myself, which is of course, the best reason to do it. And I'm resisting the urge to now try to take care of her (by writing her a letter or whatever).
So, yeah, it's painful. I think about her a lot. I miss her a lot. I still want what I've wanted with her for a long time, very badly. But I feel ready to move on in a way. Tired of the torture, even though I can't imagine what will replace it.
I'll definitely try to keep you guys posted. Thanks for asking.
> Hi Crushed,
>
> How are you doing? This all sounds like progress, although painful, for sure.
>
> I think it took a lot of courage to take the break. And to ask that she not contact you. I hope that you are having some glimmers of feeling differently--perhaps stronger, perhaps more clear headed admist what probably feels like a lot of loss and pain.
>
> Keep us posted, okay?
>
>
> > It went ok. It felt like nowhere near enough time and I was scattered and disjointed. But we have another appointment next Monday. And -- here's the biggest news -- I told my usual T that I have to take a two-week break. I cancelled our sessions for the next two weeks, told her it was a difficult decision, and that I would let her know if I ended up needing a longer break. I told her she didn't need to call me back unless she had a problem with that she needed to discuss.
> >
> > I just felt like I needed distance from her to effectively sort out my feelings about her and figure out what I need to do.
> >
> > I'm thinking of writing her a letter explaining this to her (I didn't explain any of *why* I needed a break -- only that I needed one and that it was difficult). Do you think it's a good idea? Or should I just let her wonder. I guess, once again, I'm worrying too much about her feelings, and I should just be taking care of myself. Interesting to note, anyway.
> >
> > I'll write more soon if I can.
>
>
Posted by crushedout on November 3, 2004, at 21:01:43
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 3, 2004, at 8:52:24
Hey falls,Thanks. My insurance will cover it, but only 80%, which is okay, I guess.
Anyway, I totally appreciate you sharing your experience with me. I'll definitely have more questions for you soon.
Posted by annierose on November 3, 2004, at 22:10:59
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on November 3, 2004, at 21:01:43
Crushedout - You really have taken on a lot!
I was going through a painful ordeal this summer and a friend offered this advice: When you are going through hell, keep on going.
I hope your 2nd consultation with T2 gives you some more answers. And 80% is pretty good. My current insurance only pays approx 40%.
And I agree. This election is something to depress most (48.5%) people!! I just don't get it.
Posted by crushedout on November 5, 2004, at 13:45:13
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by annierose on November 3, 2004, at 22:10:59
OK, so I made plans for the week of Thanksgiving and got a job that conflicted with one of my scheduled therapy appointments in the latter half of the month, so as a courtesy, I emailed my T to cancel two more appointments. Here's what I wrote:
"Hi [Ellen],
I need to cancel a couple more dates with you: [date 1] and [date 2]. So at this point, in November, we are only scheduled to see each other on [date 3] and [date 4]. I hope it's okay with you to leave it that way for now. Assuming it is, you don't need to contact me. I'd actually prefer that you didn't.
Thanks,
[crushedout]
p.s. I mailed the check yesterday."
This morning as I was laying in bed, I was thinking how good it was that I had asked her not to contact me, because I don't wake up in the morning waiting for or expecting or hoping for an email from her, and that gives me some much needed emotional distance. And then I got up and checked my email, only to see her name in my inbox. Irony.Here's what she wrote:
"Hi [crushedout],
I respect your request for a break and I appreciate that you prefer I don't contact you. Still, as you go through this process, it seems important to let you know that my thoughts are with you. From the clarity of your messages, I am reassured that you are ok. I wish you well and look forward to our session on [date 3].
all the best, [Ellen]"
Is that messed up or what?????? It feels very manipulative to me. Not to mention disrespectful of my requests, which were very clear.It makes me think of what the consulting T I'm seeing said: that if she lets me go without a fight, I'm going to feel discarded and abandoned, but if she tries to get me to stay, I'll feel manipulated but also loved and cherished. Of course I was happy to get this email on one level. But I'm very distrustful of her motives and I *do* feel manipulated.
I mean, why does she need to let me know I'm in her thoughts? I think she just doesn't want me to vilify her and she's trying to insert herself as a kind soul, when I'm trying to detach and she should let me do that in whatever way I can.
I guess maybe she had good motives (she's concerned about me? -- but she said she was reassured that I was fine!) but I doubt they were the majority of what inspired this email.
Posted by tryingtobewise on November 5, 2004, at 15:52:30
In reply to She emailed me, posted by crushedout on November 5, 2004, at 13:45:13
Hi Crushed,
Yes I think that is messed up. You defined your boundary and she crossed it, and admitted doing so in her email to you. I'm feeling kind of bit#^y today and would fully support you emailing her back questioning what part of "I'd prefer you don't contact me" she didn't understand.
But I'm sure other "more evolved" :) babblers will have better ideas.
:) Kim
Posted by crushedout on November 5, 2004, at 15:57:18
In reply to Re: She emailed me, posted by tryingtobewise on November 5, 2004, at 15:52:30
Posted by Rigby on November 5, 2004, at 16:21:03
In reply to She emailed me, posted by crushedout on November 5, 2004, at 13:45:13
You're right--she should **not** have contacted you. It's completely disrespectful not to mention unwise. A wise therapist would let you draw your own conclusions with time and space away (and of course, obviously, respect your basic wishes!)
If you can resist, don't respond to her. But if you feel you need to discuss this real-time see if you can do that with the alternative therapist you're using now--even do a phone call if you're feeling on the edge.
I hope at least you validated in your quest to find someone who can really help you. I think this one beats the auditory hallucination my (former??) therapist had!!
> OK, so I made plans for the week of Thanksgiving and got a job that conflicted with one of my scheduled therapy appointments in the latter half of the month, so as a courtesy, I emailed my T to cancel two more appointments. Here's what I wrote:
>
> "Hi [Ellen],
>
> I need to cancel a couple more dates with you: [date 1] and [date 2]. So at this point, in November, we are only scheduled to see each other on [date 3] and [date 4]. I hope it's okay with you to leave it that way for now. Assuming it is, you don't need to contact me. I'd actually prefer that you didn't.
>
> Thanks,
> [crushedout]
>
> p.s. I mailed the check yesterday."
>
>
> This morning as I was laying in bed, I was thinking how good it was that I had asked her not to contact me, because I don't wake up in the morning waiting for or expecting or hoping for an email from her, and that gives me some much needed emotional distance. And then I got up and checked my email, only to see her name in my inbox. Irony.
>
> Here's what she wrote:
>
> "Hi [crushedout],
>
> I respect your request for a break and I appreciate that you prefer I don't contact you. Still, as you go through this process, it seems important to let you know that my thoughts are with you. From the clarity of your messages, I am reassured that you are ok. I wish you well and look forward to our session on [date 3].
>
> all the best, [Ellen]"
>
>
> Is that messed up or what?????? It feels very manipulative to me. Not to mention disrespectful of my requests, which were very clear.
>
> It makes me think of what the consulting T I'm seeing said: that if she lets me go without a fight, I'm going to feel discarded and abandoned, but if she tries to get me to stay, I'll feel manipulated but also loved and cherished. Of course I was happy to get this email on one level. But I'm very distrustful of her motives and I *do* feel manipulated.
>
> I mean, why does she need to let me know I'm in her thoughts? I think she just doesn't want me to vilify her and she's trying to insert herself as a kind soul, when I'm trying to detach and she should let me do that in whatever way I can.
>
> I guess maybe she had good motives (she's concerned about me? -- but she said she was reassured that I was fine!) but I doubt they were the majority of what inspired this email.
Posted by fallsfall on November 5, 2004, at 19:50:52
In reply to She emailed me, posted by crushedout on November 5, 2004, at 13:45:13
Yes, she is messed up.
I think that you do not need to respond to her.
I'll try to post more below about finding a new therapist...
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