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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 17:04:53
I had one of those ah-hah moments. That he's unilaterally changed the boundaries on me without explanation or discussion. It's not just his big secret. He also used to answer "how are you"'s with brief but real answers. Now he just says fine, or tired maybe, and that's it. He doesn't want to share any of his real life with me anymore. Not even the most innocuous stuff.
It doesn't sound that bad on the face of it. But I had just figured out that the reason therapy had gotten past the plateau we were stuck on because we had reached a stage of therapy where I was considering him as a human being, and not just my therapist/mommy. I even had mentioned that to him, in totally positive terms.
Now I see that I've totally regressed. With the fear of losing him, and the sudden turn to blank slate - which he never really was before - I've gone back to being dependent and clingy and totally obsessed. I'm even thinking in extreme terms about what I'd do if I lost him, when not too long ago I was thinking of easing away myself. All the advances of the last several years seem gone. Except that I can see what's happening. I guess that's an improvement of sorts.
I'm sure that he didn't intend it this way. I'm not quite sure why he has gone to this blank slate stuff, and I feel like if he's going to change the boundaries on me, he really ought to explain it. But I know he didn't intend to scare me, because he's annoyed with me for being scared. Or at least for how clingy and demanding and unreasonable I get when I'm scared. I know he didn't mean to do this to me.
Yet he did.
And if I ask him about it, he'll deny it, or pretend that he never used to briefly reply to my questions, or say that he doesn't know why he's changed. Or get mad at me.
I think I hate therapy. Therapists are always doing this. We see it again and again. Therapists decide the boundaries need to be moved, so they move them. They don't care how it affects us. He doesn't care that it's making me regress to where I was five or ten years ago.
He suggested the other day in what he said was a joking way, but I suspect was in anger, that I should quit before he terminated me. I know he didn't mean it. But I wonder if maybe he's right.
Posted by Happyflower on June 15, 2008, at 17:33:58
In reply to Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 17:04:53
Grrrrrrrrrrrr. I warn you I am in a mood about T's right now. But changing boundaries for their sake(even though they will say it was for our protection) IS CRAP and it HURTS more than they realize I think.
My Old T was like this all the time there was a riff between us, it was ALWAYS my fault, and he had nothing to do with my OVERREACTING. In fact he always said that he is USUALLY right. grrrrrrr.To me this is an abuse of power during therapy, now sometimes it can be a client that is overreacting. But sometimes it is the T who gets his ego bruised and they get hurtful in defense of what they did that we call them out on it or for any wrong doing. Are they EVER guilty?
So easy for T who usually has a good sense of self esteem to overpower a client who in most cases do have a lower self esteem. Of course it is the "crazy client" who is at fault not the perfect egotistic T's who never do anything wrong. grrrrrrrrrr. I think this makes us feel powerless, which cause intense feelings of betrayal of our trust.
Most of us have a issue like this that happened before in our pasts. I think your reactions are completely valid, considering what you have been through with your T. Now I know all I am saying her doesn't apply to you, but your post brings back memories of a common struggle I had with my old T.
What is it with T's working on Sundays and on holidays? Sorry for my rant Dinah, but I am on your side. lol
My current T is not like this, he will make that mistake once in a great while and I call him out on it, and he admits his mistake or tries to explain, but usually I was right. He has his ego in check but usually it is ego that makes him slip up, he admits it.
Posted by backseatdriver on June 15, 2008, at 19:54:16
In reply to Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 17:04:53
Oh, crikey, Dinah. What codswallop. I can't believe your T. I don't understand why they do this. It's like, as soon as a client's guard goes down, up goes the fence and out comes the great stone face.
What would happen if you let him be this way, and mirrored it? Turning the tables on the T, as it were.
Posted by Daisym on June 15, 2008, at 20:55:38
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by backseatdriver on June 15, 2008, at 19:54:16
Please remember that I always want to be supportive to you. So if this feels too challenging, ignore it.
I think long-term therapy changes, the way all relationships must change. They change because the people in them change - due to circumstances, choices and familiarity. The more intimately we know someone, the more these changes can be apparent. But often the things that have changed in the other person aren't that apparent to them. When we are upset, depressed or stressed, we usually aren't very good at being self-reflective.
I'm getting a divorce. I've been working through it for two years - and still when someone who knows me casually finds out, they will say, "Really? I didn't know. You must be handling it well." The truth is, there were times when I didn't handle it well, and my close friends and my clients knew this. I was too quiet, or I was quick to anger at a dad. But especially with the families I serve, I didn't want to tell them all the personal horror, I tried really hard to keep my stuff at home. I'm sure I wasn't successful all the time. And I'm sure I was hiding myself a lot, even as I tried to be open and present in my work. I do know that when people would ask me "how are you? or How was your weekend?" I'd say, "Fine, thanks." Because truthfully, I didn't want to say, "crummy - I cried all weekend due to being alone." My clients don't need to hear that. It wouldn't be good for our work. And honestly, I don't want to think about it when I don't have to.
You've said that your therapist is going through something. You don't really know what it is. I would be anxious too - and clingy and regressed - and all those other things you said. But it is possible that your therapist hasn't consciously changed the rules, but rather he is trying to not talk about his own stuff in your sessions. He should know better than this - he should know that you would feel it, but perhaps the stress he is under isn't anything concrete he can verbalize to you, at least not yet. A few years back, my therapist suddenly stopped asking me about checking in on Fridays. He changed his whole demeanor at the end of our sessions - clearly he was avoiding this. After a few weeks of feeling really hurt and confused, I finally pointed it out. I told him that if I was supposed to have progressed to the point of not needing him by X-date, he should have warned me. And if he didn't want to check in between sessions anymore, he should straight out tell me. Turns out he had a friend with cancer he was helping on Fridays - and he wasn't available. But he didn't want to reveal he was dealing with this either. He said, "I should have known that you would pick up on it" and he reassured me that if I "really" needed him, I should still call, he would call back, etc. etc. This was a huge issue all summer - I felt bad for adding to his stress and guilty and I was mad as heck for not getting what I wanted still, even if we could both see I didn't still need it. And I was mad at him for not trusting me with the real reason and letting me imagine the very worst possible reasons for the change in him.
As people, our therapists do have the usual good and bad things going on in their lives. And I think when we've been with them a long time, we know it deeper than their other clients. We see the subtle changes and the things they do or don't do. But I just don't think that it is always that well thought out - they really don't know how these little differences add up very quickly for us. Or maybe they want to pretend that it doesn't bother us, because they can't help being like they are being.
Sometimes I wonder if my therapist has gone to a conference, read a new book or had supervision about me, because something(s) will be different suddenly. Usually I'm too polite to ask directly, but eventually I will let him know that I've noticed a difference and if I find it useful or not.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, as much as we would like to believe that most things done in therapy are deliberate and well thought out, I just don't think they are. I think we co-create each session, based on what we both bring to it.
I wish it wasn't so tough for you right now. I hope he gets himself together soon.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 21:53:27
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Daisym on June 15, 2008, at 20:55:38
:(
I think you're likely right. My therapist isn't really given to reflection all that much, and it doesn't really seem like him to decide consciously to change boundaries. Or to come to the conclusion when talking to peers or a supervisor that he maybe should change boundaries.
But it seems so perfectly aligned with what he's doing that it's hard to believe that it isn't what's going on, even if it isn't like him.
And when I try to talk about it with him, he says the *stupidest* things. Things so totally out of step with what has happened in the past in our relationship that I wonder if he's taken up drinking to excess.
And I really hate what I've become again. I was so proud of myself for getting past all that set of behaviors and feelings. And now I'm back to wanting to wrap myself around his legs and beg him not to terminate me. The session before last I made him so angry. At the end of the session, he wouldn't cooperate with me in calming myself. He accused me angrily of wanting to wrap things up in nice ribbons by the end of fifty minutes. And yes, of course I do. I don't want to be calling him with hysterical phone calls because we didn't end on a reassuring note. I don't want to be another bother to him when he's already in distress. Yet his actions and my predispositions are combining to exactly that end.
I hate this. I really hate it.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 21:59:02
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by backseatdriver on June 15, 2008, at 19:54:16
I think I'd be totally awful at mirroring. :)
I'm as transparent as glass in therapy. Even if I retreat to a purely intellectual position, I don't think I could do blank slate.
I really am being a pill. I know that. I told him all I needed was for him to be emotionally present in the moment, and he has done a reasonably good job of doing that most of the time. But I'm still upset and frustrated. I want things the way they were. And that's something I can't have.
I think I might hate therapy sometimes.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 22:08:11
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on June 15, 2008, at 17:33:58
My therapist is actually pretty good at admitting his flaws, for the most part. He's definitely either totally oblivious to what's going on, or he's doing a good job pretending. Or denying.
I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be better for me to take a therapy vacation for a while. But then I get terrified I'll be terminated and all good sense goes out the window. I become a squalling two year old again.
Sigh. I definitely have that intense fear of abandonment.
He's fundamentally a good guy, however flawed he might be.
It also occurs to me that this might be my fault. I sometimes bring therapy stories to him about other therapists. We both joke that if he were to step out of line, I'd be sure to tell him because I really value therapeutic boundaries. Maybe he thought I was trying to tell him something about our therapy. I wasn't. He really is detached enough to not have any violations of boundaries be a major issue with him.
Posted by muffled on June 15, 2008, at 22:19:06
In reply to Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 17:04:53
Dinah, I'm sos orry, you really have been having t struggles :-(
I'm not ocd but mebbe thats comming into play, or being triggered by the situ, and thats addiing to the intensity of all this?
I know while I had my oldT. I could feel pretty intensely by things she did and stuff, and I was attached, but not supremely so. I can't imagine how frightened you must feel :-(
I don't know what the answer is? Or where this is all comming from, or how you could best address it.
I wonder if a consult WOULD help? Just like when I was stuck. It helped some. An outside person can see much that neither the T or client sees. Esp long term, you become enmeshed in your patterns of behaviour or expected behaviours over time.
I just wonder if with a consult, it would reassure you that things are going to be OK. It seems as if BOTH you and your T are struggling here.
I couldn't continue w/my T as she was not willing to get educated on my problem. But like I said, the consult did help for a bit, she tried diff things and was much diff in her ways. Just not enuf.
I find that if I have a break from T, I find the intensity is initially hard to bear, but then I get used to 'doing it on my own' and gain confidence in myself more. I wonder if you went to T less often that that would bring down this high level of intensity?
Its hard, but it might be doable, and it does get easier, at least it did for me.
Dinah, your such a sweetie and a good person, I hate to see you struggling like this. I wish I could have the answers for you.
I hope I haven't said dumb things here, sometimes I do, and if so I am sorry.
(((((((((Dinah)))))))))
M
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 22:53:01
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by muffled on June 15, 2008, at 22:19:06
Muffled, most importantly, I have *never* known you to say dumb things. I've told you before how wise I think you are. One thing I've told my therapist I want to work on in therapy right now is generosity of spirit. And you're the person I tell him about to describe what I mean. He knows your name well. :)
See, we don't always or even usually talk about the abandonment stuff in therapy. I know he doesn't like it. And sometimes I don't even realize I'm upset about something until well after the session. Gosh, that's another thing that hasn't happened regularly for a long time. Emotional time bombs.
I've always gotten more clingy when I feel uncertain. I guess recently feeling better was because I felt so safe. Stupidly safe. He had finally convinced me that he actually cared about me. I was secure that he wasn't going anywhere. And now I'm not secure he's not going anywhere, and that makes me annoyingly clingy, so he gets irritated with me, which scares me more and makes me cling more.
Sigh. If I could get less scared, I think I might want to take a break until things get better at least.
I'm so sorry things didn't work out with your therapist. I'm glad that the intensity of missing her got better. My experience of losing my therapist last time was that things did get less intense, but...
I dunno. I think I don't attach easily but when I do I'm a leech. :(
I know a consultation is probably a good idea in theory. But I have the uneasy feeling that the reason things have gone south is because of supervision he's gotten or some sort of outside influence. Our relationship has evolved over the years, and filling in a consultant on all of that might be impossible.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 22:59:25
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » muffled, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 22:53:01
It really hurts though.
And I don't feel well.
And my husband is in a bad mood from work stress.
And I'm behind in work from being sick.
Anxiety and anxiety attacks and OCD and urges to hurt myself and all the things that I thought I'd gotten over.
It's like the vertigo. I need something solid to put one hand on to keep myself knowing which way is up. And there is nothing solid around me.
Posted by Midnightblue on June 15, 2008, at 23:42:41
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 22:59:25
Is ANYTHING solid? Sometimes I'm not so sure....
MB
Posted by Daisym on June 16, 2008, at 0:14:05
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 22:59:25
Is it possible that some, perhaps half, of these feelings and fears are coming from you? What has triggered off this set of feelings, besides your therapist? I wonder if the details of the world don't sometimes sneak in and make us worried? I'm thinking the floods in Iowa must make you nervous, even if it is unconsciously.
I sometimes slip into these deep feelings of wanting more from my therapist than he can give, without knowing why I've slipped there. What has happened or what did he say/do/not say/not do? Old stuff, I'm sure. I'm way too hypervigilent. But then I push and pull and he still can't give me what I need, until we sort of stumble into the right conversation that soothes things. I'm sure you'll get there, just keep working at it.
And I hate it too - therapy that is -- sometimes, oft times. And then other times, I just need to be there - to feel the safety of those 4 walls, keeping the world out for a little while.
You'd think there would be an easier way...
Posted by muffled on June 16, 2008, at 0:16:02
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 22:59:25
I'm reasonably solidish. If you want to lean my way. I don't think I'll fall over.
You got my email, and you can email anytime ok?
Right now, I think you are safe w/your T. maybe the dynamics have changed some, but for now, its OK. For now it IS safe, just feels scarey, but for now its OK. I do not think he will imminently depart.
As far as consult...I thot mebbe you guys could consult TOGETHER, both go. That way you are in the loop. And a good consulting T should be able to zero in on what to say/ask, and be able to sort out some of the less useful patterns you guys might have gotten into, and suggest some helpful things to change them...It could really throw some new zip into your therapy! Or not. I dunno, but I am sure a breath of fresh views will be bound to be useful. But the more I think on it, given the relationship you do have w/your T, it would be best for boyth of you to be there, and ideally for consult to possibly come to your T's office...
Abandonment is always a tough one.
The old vortex of need is hard.
Do you guys work on whats behind all these feelings? What is the root cause of it all? Do you have specific strategies to deal with them?
Its awfully uncomfortable for you I know.(to put it mildly...)
I am glad you are feeling OK to post on babble if it helps :-)
Do you have 'others', like me? Maybe they are clamouring to be heard?( I know your sensitive to this, so bmail/email if you wish).
I am thinking of you.
Thanks for your kind words to me.
Tee hee, so your T knows me....I'll have to drop in if I am ever out your way!LOL! :-)
M
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 8:21:16
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Midnightblue on June 15, 2008, at 23:42:41
Usually there are solid things. Maybe nothing is everlastingly solid. :(
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 8:31:41
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Daisym on June 16, 2008, at 0:14:05
Well, I'm sorry to say that nothing external needs to be added to the mix. Sigh. It's that important to me.
Yes, I'm sure all those things are adding up to make me anxious. As are more immediate things in my life. But *this* anxiety is all to do with what's going on in therapy. I hate that, and I hate how sometimes therapy makes me worse instead of better. My first impulse was to run for the hills, and maybe that impulse was best and I shouldn't have let myself be talked out of it. I *know* how much I'm affected by it. I *know* that I can keep a certain stability no matter what's going on in the rest of the world if everything is ok within those walls. And that even if things are going well in the rest of the world, if things aren't going well in those four walls I won't do well. What I don't always realize is what "going well" in those four walls means. There's what I know I need, and I attend to that in session. And then there are all those things that I don't really notice in the immediacy of the session, but that lie ready to blow up sometime in the next few days.
It's sick, I know, to be so dependent on such little things in therapy. I really am a tuning fork. Or a great big receiver. Or a mass of sensory inputs.
Last session, I was mentioning that my husband was finding that as annoying as he (my therapist) did. And my therapist answered that any strength carried to excess was a weakness. I stubbornly replied that maybe the problem wasn't that I had too much sensitivity but that others (meaning him and my husband I guess) were lacking in it.
Posted by Happyflower on June 16, 2008, at 8:39:13
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » Midnightblue, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 8:21:16
Could it also be that there is something that you know is big that he isn't telling you and that upset you because you feel you know him so well? Is that the fact he isn't telling you kinda putting up a boundary wall you aren't used to?
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 8:41:55
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by muffled on June 16, 2008, at 0:16:02
The two sessions before last one we did talk about my abandonment fears. The first one went really well. The second one went really badly. I'm not entirely sure what the difference was, other than once it started to go bad it spiraled worse and worse. That's the session where he suggested I quit before he could terminate me, if I was going to let all the good things be destroyed by my anger if he terminated me. He said he was kidding, but I'm pretty sure he said it in irritation.
Then he said that maybe it wasn't a good idea to talk about it anymore. The next session, after I'd groveled apology to him on the phone a couple of times, I told him I thought we were *supposed* to talk about that sort of thing even if it was upsetting to me, because that's what therapy was supposed to do. And he agreed and said yes, of course we could talk about it. That it was just that I was so upset and he had reacted because he didn't want me to be so upset. But I suspect that the real reason is that I was annoying him. So I really don't want to talk about it anymore. :(
I didn't like myself that session either.
The idea of a consultation somehow makes me nervous. I guess I'm afraid that it will somehow bring on disaster. That a consultant will point out how overdependent I am, or say that it would be better for me to ease back on therapy. And right now, I can't tolerate that. I should have run when I could, before I regressed. :(
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 8:49:17
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Happyflower on June 16, 2008, at 8:39:13
I am relatively sure I know his big secret. Not the details of course, but the overall picture. Not because he told me anything. But people can say an awful lot by not saying anything.
And I'm ok with his not sharing the details of it. It really isn't my business, anything that personal. But that doesn't mean he has to shut me out of the superficial stuff he used to answer. You know, the brief sort of answer that any two people who've known each other a long time give, even if they don't want to get into deep intimacies? I didn't really notice how much it bothered me until I had this realization yesterday that he had changed. It was just one of those subsurface things that rankled without my being able to put my finger on it. I'm sure it's not the only thing rankling. But it's one I finally put my finger on.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 9:00:33
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 8:49:17
I suppose I need to acknowledge to myself that while I'm exquisitely and painfully aware of every ripple in his emotions in these sessions, it's entirely possible that I'm misinterpreting what he's feeling and even what he's saying.
I have always relied perhaps too much on what he calls my strong intuitive sense and my deep connection to the something or another around me (I forget. I think it included spirituality as well as environmental stuff), and what I call my semi-psychic abilities. I rely more on what I see with my eyes closed than I do on what I see with my eyes open.
The problem is that while that sense has always been very reliable, when the signals I'm getting are mixed, or if I don't do checks on what I'm sensing, I can easily misinterpret the motives or thoughts involved. The feelings don't lie. But the feelings can be caused by more than what I'm aware of.
With him being so blank slate, it's more likely than normal that I'll misinterpret the other data, because I can't check it with him directly or correlate it to a wider knowledge base.
Posted by Tabitha on June 17, 2008, at 1:46:43
In reply to Not too happy with my therapist today, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2008, at 17:04:53
Oh gosh, this stuff hurts doesn't it? I like how you hang onto feeling you're right about what's happening though. When my attachment object is displeased with me, I completely lose my own perspective.
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2008, at 10:35:16
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on June 17, 2008, at 1:46:43
I can somehow manage to take all blame on myself and grovel for his forgiveness, and still manage to stand aside and see what's going on. It's a dual position. :)
Worst part is that when I grovel he clearly doesn't usually remember what I'm groveling about. And when I bring him to task he usually doesn't remember what he's supposed to be guilty of.
I need to start noticing things *in* session again.
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2008, at 10:36:09
In reply to Re: Not too happy with my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on June 17, 2008, at 1:46:43
This is the end of the thread.
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