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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
I seem to be having a lot of trouble right now so I am going to be posting a lot...but any feedback i can get is great. I need some support.
I have Borderline Personality Disorder and I thought it was under control but apparently I am going nuts. My therapist told me that therapists tend to limit the number of borderline patients that they treat because we are so exhausting. (this made me feel great). He already previously told me that I make his job so difficult. I don't mean to. Borderlines have this love/hate thing going on where they either really like/love a person or they hate the person..there is no in between. He says I am either overly postive with him or I am overly negative accusing him of abandoning me or leaving me.
I spent quite a while today in tears thinking about all of this because I look back on my sessions with him (i have been with him for 3 years) and I have never had a stable length of time in therapy...One week I am fine...the next week I am freaking out. I can never just be "normal". He told me he cannot have a practice filled with borderlines because we are so unstable and that would not be good for him.
I feel horrible. I emailed him and told him I wish I Had died at birth because then I wouldnt be in as much pain as I am in now. (it is wrong to email him anymore though because even my thoughts are wrong...everything about me is coming from being borderline and it doesnt matter what I say anymore...I am SICK.
I will never be well. I am sick ..no amount of medication is going to cure me.
I dont know how to be around my therapist anymore..I dont want to be seen as sick. I hate borderline personality disorder...I am also bipolar,have OCD, severe anxiey..with no anxeity meds..major depression, BPD, fear of abandonment, ...you name it I have it...
I want to be well. I want my therapist to be ok with me...he pretends to be because I pay him to..he says he cares about me and that he will never abandon me or terminate me...but
I feel like such a burden to him...like he feels obgliated to see me.I am in a lot of pain. I need to know of other Borderline patients and how they handle therapy with their therapists...
Posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 19:22:19
In reply to Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
NOW...I just did research and found out that there is no medication for people with BPD. SO, basically I have been treated for bipolar and depression..but nothing for BPD. I learned that it is a learned disorder and that my parents were the ones that made me this way because of the way that they brought me up.And NOW..I feel as if I have been a waste to of my therapist's time for the past 3 years...and that I am sicker than ever.
I HATE MENTAL ILLNESS.
Posted by healing928 on August 2, 2008, at 20:14:04
In reply to Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
Amanda,
I have BPD, and fired my t last month. During our final session for closure, i did something really stupid, but he understood. He has understood everything; he actually supported me via phone and email when I saw a t i had earlier in my life. I couldn't handle the abandonment issues I had. It hurt so much when he wasn't available to see me. His schedule is limited due to something he is going through.
I had several months when things were going well; i was eating healthy, and physically active. I have a lot of work to do, and know that I can control my BPD symptoms. It is not a sentence to have BPD, but you have to be willing to make changes and change behavior. He is the one that dx me of BPD; the other t i had always said it was bipolar. I have always known I had issues beyond bipolar, but the other t still won't dx me with BPD. I think due to the fact BPD has such a stigma, and t's don't want to treat us, and some see it as a death sentence or something. There are many degrees of people with BPD. Remember YOU are not your dx; it is a set of symptoms you are experiencing. The label is only used as a tool to treat the symptoms.
Your t sounds like mine, very kind. He understands; you need to be open and honest with your t. You can learn to manage your symptoms, and it won't happen overnight!
Good luck,
Healing
Posted by healing928 on August 2, 2008, at 20:16:21
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 2, 2008, at 20:14:04
I would also like to add, he was great when I asked if he would be my t again. It sounds like your t understands the pain you are in, just be open with him, follow his suggestions, and be good to yourself!
Posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 20:18:10
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 2, 2008, at 20:16:21
I dont know that he understands....he says he cares about me but I need to hear him say that he understands...you know? I have to hear it..just like I have to hear that he will not abandon me..he constantly has to remind me.
Posted by healing928 on August 2, 2008, at 20:22:13
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » healing928, posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 20:18:10
Oh, I can understand that. My t told me he understands and can't imagine having the parents I have. So for me that was validating, and why i have dependence and attachment issues.
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2008, at 20:58:52
In reply to Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
"Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder"
"Skills Training Manual for Treating Borderline Personality Disorder"
Have you by any chance read these books? You might be able to get them at your library, or use the interlibrary loan to borrow one.
Borderline Personality Disorder doesn't mean you're doomed for life. I'm sorry your therapist presented it to you in such an alarming way. I think those books could give you a more balanced and compassionate view of what having Borderline Personality Disorder can mean, and how it isn't at all hopeless. I'm sure a number of people on this board are now diagnosed as BPD or have at one time been diagnosed with BPD. The diagnosis is based entirely on behavior, and there are more young women diagnosed with it than older women. So it's a different sort of diagnosis.
Posted by Looney Tunes on August 2, 2008, at 23:02:20
In reply to Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
Honestly, if my therapist kept telling me that I was so much trouble and I was so difficult and that he could only take so much of me or BPD, I would quit and leave that therapist. (And I did a couple of months ago)
I don't think telling you constantly these things can be helpful. Look how it affects your self-esteem.
Personally, I think you need to find a new therapist. Three years is a long time, but if you feel he is making you feel worse about yourself, terminate and find a specialist in BPD.
Posted by raisinb on August 3, 2008, at 13:39:27
In reply to Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
I would have a lot of trouble with that, too. My therapist has told me that the therapy is tough on her, too, but she always couches it with a positive, like "I wouldn't trade you for anyone else." She has never diagnosed me. Once I asked her what she told the insurance, and she said "adjustment disorder" (though I think we know by this point things are more complicated than that!)
Personally, I don't think diagnoses are all that helpful in therapy. A therapist I had a few years ago told me I was BPD, and it led to an immediate loss of trust. I felt like you--everything coming from me was automatically, suddenly, evidence of my "borderlineness."
I don't think the diagnosis itself is that helpful either. It is an extremely broad (and many think, overused, label.
Marsha Linehan's book that Dinah referenced above is great on this subject. She points out the huge range of markers that have qualified as "borderline" over the years. And that it's often used as a catch-all for any clients therapists find difficult.
Is it possible you could talk to your therapist about this?
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 13:46:31
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » Amanda29, posted by raisinb on August 3, 2008, at 13:39:27
My therapist doesnt believe in labels...he diagnoses his patients with labels but once he starts seeing them as patients, he only focuses on the symptoms of the label...he doesnt say.."oh well, here is Amanda who is BPD, bipolar,OCD Depressed, anxious..etc etc...he sees my symptoms...whereas I see myself as my labels. My labels define who I am as a person. And they shouldnt. This is where my therapist and I differ...he doesnt believe that it defines me, but being borderline is all I know...I DONT KNOW how to live NOT BEING BORDERLINE. And, if I want to get better, I have to work on the symptoms that make me Borderline. Which by the way, I am prety upset because I just realized that bpd is a learned disorder...that my parents are the ones that gave me the disorder..baised on how they raised me..and that I can fix it if I change my behavior! I didnt realize this and now I feel as if I have wasted the past 3 years of therapy for my therapist. I feel horrible.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 14:01:06
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » raisinb, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 13:46:31
I didn't mean to make it sound that way, Amanda.
There are a lot of complex factors that go into it. It's not like you just chose to behave this way. Linehan's book is really good about talking of the biological and environmental factors involved.
Parents do the best they can, given who they are. Just as you're doing the best you can. You haven't wasted the last three years, and you aren't responsible for how your therapy has gone. If your therapist wanted to address your behaviors by teaching you other ways to respond, he could have.
But really, they're very helpful books. Or you might want to look into DBT groups, which can also be useful in teaching the skills.
You can possibly also do a google search on Marsha Linehan and DBT. She has,or had, a website out there.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 14:04:34
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 14:01:06
Thanks. I am just so confused right now as to how to be and how therapy should be and how my therapist is treating me ...he is a good psychologist...I just feel so sick...and he confirmed how sick I am which makes me feel just GREAT. But I cannot stop going to him because I really do like him and he does really help me..I am just hurt because now I really see the way he sees me...
I will look up those books... :)
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 14:06:13
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » Dinah, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 14:04:34
I spent a year arguing with my therapist over schizotypal personality disorder, so I do understand how you feel.
I wish they'd do away with the whole personality disorder section, and replace them with "characteristic methods of coping". Which is all most of them are.
Posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 14:40:00
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Looney Tunes on August 2, 2008, at 23:02:20
BPD is just a label to help treat the symptoms. It is a manageable disorder, but you have to have a therapist that truly understands it. Yes, I consider it a disorder that I have. Some think of the word disorder in a negative way, but the behaviors are irrational. Most people with BPD were not validated as children, and had stormy relationships with parents. Yes, environment and biological factors come into play, but this is a poor impulse control disorder, and you have take control of your recovery, find a therapist who truly has experience and training in BPD.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 17:21:45
In reply to Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 2, 2008, at 18:40:59
Do you think that my therapist "likes me" as a person? I know that is probably hard to answer, but do therapists tend to just see their patient as soemone that is sick..and nothing else? I am not looking to mean MORE to him...I just want to know that he is OK with me. and that i am not just a patient with BPD that is like every other patient with BPD that is annoying and challenging and difficult to work with. (i hate it that he told me these things..) I want him to see me as being "normal" whatever that may be. To me normal is someone that doesnt have all these disorders..and I have them all.
Posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:01:47
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 17:21:45
I know my therapist likes me because gave me feedback when I told him how connected i feel to him. He has told me how he really likes me, and how he is amazed by some of our sessions. I can sense if he isn't having a good day, and just can sense things. he says that because my emotions are so that helps me feel empathy towards others and that is a good thing.
I know I will never be more than a client to him. I also know he will always be there as my t. I have said some really crappy things to him, but he always forgives me, and even when I terminated our relationship he is taking me back. My point is, he is my therapist, and I am his client, and that is what it is. I see him on Tuesday for the first time since I terminated our relationship about a month ago. In an email the other day I said, "I am looking forward in seeing you. I hope that doesn't too overly clingy." He responded, "No, and he looks forward to seeing me as well."
My point, be honest about your feelings, and you may get the feedback you need. We also need to be realistic, they are our t's and we went to be more, but they aren't going to break any ethics for us. I don't feel romantic transference for my t, more like a fatherly love, but I still want more. Anyway you look at it attachment, transference, and dependence it all hurts like hell!
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:05:41
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:01:47
I am being overly honest with my therapist right now...I have emailed him and told him exactly how I feel..and I think that he is thinking I am just trying to create drama when the reality is I am being completely honest about how I am feeling..(not about him...about me and my issues). I am a very honest person when I am talking to him..)at least I try to be.
Posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:40:53
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.. » healing928, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:05:41
I am so sorry he is not giving you what you need. Does he have experience and training in BPD?
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:45:56
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:40:53
He says he does...and I know he has at least one other patient with it because we are in group therapy together with him. I am really hurting by all this, I shouldnt be but I am. This is like a death sentence to me. I am not one to cause self harm to myself, but there are times that I wish I could...when I was addicted to anxiety meds at least I was numb...now I cant be anymore.I dont know how to stop my thoughts and the more I think about my disorder..the more upset I get. He does know how to treat BPD...apparently he has been trying to treat me and I have been resisting..BUT HE NEVER SAID ANYTHING...he just continues to treat me in hopes that I will get better! Now that I know I havent been doing what he wants me to..I feel horrible and I feel like I have wasted his time. I just emailed him and told him I should rot in hell for being who I am and that I am at total fault for having this disorder...that had I reacted differently when I was growing up..I might not have it now. (I know I am overreacting...) but I am so upset. He is going to look at this as me trying to create and start drama...but I am really upset.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:54:53
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by healing928 on August 3, 2008, at 19:40:53
My therapist told me he wanted me to make a goal to be in a relationship by the end of August. My thing is this, who would want to be with me? I cannot hold a relationship with ANYONE. I have social anxiety I am scared to go out in public, I have a fear of rejection and abandonment..I am a walking mess...how can he expect that from me?
I am scared to be in a realtionship because I have been rejected so many times and I dont want to get in one, for him to find out how messed up I am ..and for him to leave me. I just wouldnt be able to handle it.I believe there is someone for everyone, but I dont know if it is true for me.
I hate to think that I will be alone the rest of my life and that I will die alone all because of my mental illnesses.
Posted by Looney Tunes on August 3, 2008, at 21:40:36
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder.., posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 19:54:53
You know, I want to contradict something you keep implying. You keep implying that BPD is a learned disorder and that by simply changing your behavior, you can change the disorder.
BPD is a result of genetics and an invaidating environment. In the majority of cases, the invalidating environment is abuse or neglect. Because of abuse and neglect or other invalidation, the developmental process of the child is messed up. The child never learns object consistency, never learns appropriate attachment, does not separate from the care-taker properally, etc. All these developmental stages determine the outcome of how one relates as an adult. All these developmental processes determine one's ability to function "normally" in relationships.
If one never learns the object consistency (ie when someone leaves, it is not permentantly gone), as a child, they will have difficulty with it as an adult.
BPD is not learned. BPD is a result of development disruption. As part of this disruption, the child learns to cope in their own way. These coping mechanisms may lead to full-blown BPD symtpoms later.
DBT does attempt to make you learn coping skills, but it CAN NOT remove the developmental disruptions that make relationships so difficult for a BPD.
While I stated that the majority of BPD have been abused, there are also cases where the child might have been colically and cried all the time. The parents could not meet the child's needs all the time, as a result the child expereinced this as invalidation.
By stating that this disorder is something as easy as changing behavior, it is somewhat insulting, because I can guarentee that most BPD would change in an instant if it was that easy.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 21:46:23
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned, posted by Looney Tunes on August 3, 2008, at 21:40:36
This is just what I have been told by my therapist...I am not trying to imply anything I am repeating what I have been taught. I was told that if I change my behavior...the symptoms will go away and I wont be considered bpd. I am not TRYING to insult ANYONE that is bpd. I have been very insulted by my therapist and I am now having to deal with it on my own.
Posted by Nadezda on August 3, 2008, at 21:58:04
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Looney Tunes, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 21:46:23
To say that someone has an invalidating environment, is to say that they learned certain things from relating to their parents-- things that often undermined, or destabilized their sense of being okay, acceptable, loved or understood.
That is definitely learning-- not genetics. And while the disruption is in the past and therefore part of one's history, the behaviors, and rhythms of feeling and the beliefs about the world and about oneself can be changed, though becoming aware of, adapting to oneself, and practicing new ones.
So I have to differ with the idea that way of l iving that's called borderline personality disorder cannot be changed through learning about oneself and learning new ways of coping.
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:09:03
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Looney Tunes, posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 21:46:23
I'm sorry if your therapist, or I for that matter, gave you that impression. It isn't really fair or compassionate to yourself to think of it in those terms. If it were as easy as changing your behaviors, you'd have done it by now I'm sure.
The diagnosis may be defined behaviorally, but that doesn't mean you can just change it. As I understand it, behaviors are an attempt to cope with or regulate strong emotions. It's not just a question of stopping. It's a question of learning new ways to cope with the intensity of your emotions. It's learning new ways of emotional regulation.
http://behavioraltech.org/downloads/dbtFaq_Cons.pdfThe above link may be helpful. I know of this website because I've ordered some of her materials. I haven't read this particular FAQ, but I know that Marsha Linehan's conceptualizations have helped me an awful lot. I hope they're helpful to you.
You're the same person today you were before your therapist told you these things. There is nothing that needs to be done today or tomorrow. You have time to look into it, and find out all you can.
You might find out that your therapist is the one who can help you with this, or you might find that he isn't. His own issues have a lot to do with whether he is or not, so I hope you aren't blaming yourself for what are his emotions and his responsibility.
As strange as it may seem, you're more or less doing your job as client. You are bringing your issues to therapy. You're trying to understand and work on them. How he responds is up to him. I hope he responds in a helpful manner.
Posted by Amanda29 on August 3, 2008, at 22:12:31
In reply to Re: Borderline Personality Disorder..NOT learned » Amanda29, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2008, at 22:09:03
Thank you. He is a wonderful therapist, it is just right now I am having such a hard time with this and he isnt responding how I want him to. But I know he wants to help me, I just need to be patient.
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