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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by garnet71 on June 29, 2009, at 21:47:29
So I've been fiercely independent most of my life. I remember the day when I left my son's father, at 23, feeling total freedom-freedom from anyone having control over me (parents, bf). It was one of the happiest days of my life. I remember the songs on the radio, the weather, the clothes I was wearing at the time...when I was 17, I had taken on being a mom, raising my step children, and handling all the finances and the house, working full time, but taking care of everyone in need; helping the kids with their homework, sports, being a mom and making all the household decisions...I've been proposed to several times, but never married; never felt it was right to give up my independence....
Since then, I've been mostly decisive and authoritative with work and personal affairs. However, over the past 3 years, my life has been falling apart. Psych meds I've taken for anxiety were debiliating; they brought me to the point where I could no longer function. As a result, my perfect credit i built over the years-now gone. Hundreds in parking tickets because I couldn't afford a parking pass at school. Instead of paying my mortgage, I had to buy books-$700 for summer semester-mostly online-as cheap as I could get them. I lost my health insurance, $thousands in bills, quit opening my mail., etc., etc. I feel immobilzed; stuck. Unable to cope. I have no motivatation, like there is a deficet of dopamine in my brain. I can't handle anything anymore, yet my mood has been good and optimistic since I quit taking SSRIs last December. I'm pushing aside all the stress...keeping it distant from my goals. Until I met this psychoanalyst...
So I meet this new PDoc/analyst; I decided to put 100% faith in him; before I met him, I had in my mind he would be the one who helps me get back to the person I once was--productive, resiliant, and able to cope with all and any stressors. he'd be the person who'd facilitate the transformation back to my 'old self'. I know it wasn't fair to him, but I had no idea I'd emotionally react to him in the way I did, with the attachment/trasnsference that overwhelms the ability to undergo therapy. I don't ever remember feeling needy in my lifetime; yet, I now feel like I need someone's help. Overwhelmingly. I feel powerless in my situation. I realize I sort of like feeling like I need someone now--him.
so I think psychotherapists are very uncomfortable with that level of dependency and attachment. It causes problems in the therapeutic relationship. I know he's uncomfortable with my feelings towards him; he's been trying to find other doctors for me to consult.
I had read such premature therapeutic attachments and feelings of dependency are indicative of underlying disorders. I read all of them, but nothing fits. The closest is Dependency Peronsality Disorder. Yet, I can only relate to a few symptoms. There is just something about him that makes me feel like a needy, little girl. I never felt this in all my life; I am just so confused. I think I like feeling that I need somebody; it's a pleasant feeling, yet I can't continue therapy with this doctor because of it.
What is going on with me? Can one suddenly develop a disorder based on life circumstances? I am confused. In the past, I have cringed at the thought of a psychiatrist having any control over my well-being. Now I feel so needy. is this who I always was, but hid/dissassociated from, or is this just temporary? Have I been a needy person in disguise all these years, or have I suddenly become unable to cope with life? What do I do? I am so confused right now.
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 22:14:26
In reply to Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder?, posted by garnet71 on June 29, 2009, at 21:47:29
I think by definition personality disorders represent pervasive behavioral patterns, so I don't think they can be suddenly developed.
I do think that circumstances can conspire to uncover long hidden feelings and needs. That sustained pressure can cause upheaval along previously unsuspected faultlines in our defense systems. That's not even a bad thing, since it might create an opportunity to work on those things that are usually well below the surface.
In the natural course of events, you'd have discovered through innumerable ruptures and repairs that he was perhaps not so wonderful after all, and then (if you are lucky) that while he wasn't wonderful he was perhaps good enough. But you didn't have that luxury because he was thinking of it as a consultation.
I think different therapists have different reactions to a strong and immediate transference reaction. It depends on their knowledge and experience, their life circumstances, and their professional circumstances, how they react. But maybe that's good too, since we just as well know up front whether they're up for the journey.
I think that I found my therapist when I was at one of those moments. I don't think my therapist knew quite what to think of me, and he isn't psychoanalytically oriented. But we muddled through somehow.
Posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2009, at 23:17:14
In reply to Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder?, posted by garnet71 on June 29, 2009, at 21:47:29
If you've always been independent, it's not a disorder. It's called attachment... it means you finally feel safe enough to let someone take care of you a little bit. It's a good thing. I know how hard feeling needy is, and how it can feel like something must be wrong with you -- I wondered for a long time myself if I might have something like a disorder. It's because my attachment needs weren't met when I was little. Hope this helps. Read more about attachment.
sunnydays
Posted by Daisym on June 30, 2009, at 0:11:57
In reply to Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder?, posted by garnet71 on June 29, 2009, at 21:47:29
Your exteme independence is on one end of the spectrum and extreme dependency is on the other. Often those of us who live mostly on one end will dramatically land on the other, given the right person and circumstances. Therapy can open up longings that have been sqelched for a very long time. And when your resources give out, and inevitably they will, the slide toward being taken care of can be very quick. Especially if you have prefantasy that predisposes this.
Maturity is working towards the middle of the spectrum. Allowing interdependency without sufficating or being sufficated. It is very painful to find this middle.
I hope you find someone to work it out with soon.
Posted by Phillipa on June 30, 2009, at 13:52:17
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder? » garnet71, posted by Daisym on June 30, 2009, at 0:11:57
OH Great so that's what happened to me I want my independance back!!! Phillipa
Posted by garnet71 on June 30, 2009, at 18:37:32
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder? » garnet71, posted by Daisym on June 30, 2009, at 0:11:57
It's just very strange for something to manifest like this at my age. I am aware that the underlying feelings must have somehow always been inside me. My mother didn't want to have kids, used bc w/all 3 of us..I think she felt trapped because of us. She had all of us w/in 3 years; she may have had post-partum depression for all I know.
I told this T during our first meeting, I feel I never attached to my mother. Since then, I have read a bit about attachment theory, and Birdsong posted some good information. I would be classified as the insecure attachment type, like many of us who had childhood trauma. When an infant looks at mother while being held, and mother is depressed, the lack of attachment can happen. It can happen from neglect. it can happen from all sorts of reasons. I even read that the mother's pupil size can affect the infant's attachment. I always remember my father's pupils being small when he was angry all the time. I always wondered why always have to talk about the size of people's pupils all the time, and notice fluctuations w/in my own. lol
I've been wondering if I have had an extreme disassociation all these years, because nothing really has manifested in my life as a result of this, at least not in non-subtle ways.
It's not difficult to see how draining this could be to a therapist in psychodynamic therapy. I read about transferenced-based therapy for this sort of thing...wondering if anyone has tried it.
I"m not sure if I should open up to this or just leave it all inside, putting it back where it came from. I do know that extreme stress has taken away my ability to cope, maybe even my hard-wired emotional defenses.
Maybe it happened with him because I have finally awakened to the fact I can no longer cope with life stressors w/o help, and decided it was necessary for me to trust someone--and he just happened to be the next person to come along. I did have a fantasy he was going to be the one to make me well again, help me get back to the person I 'once was', a person w/o depression and anxiety too, and cope and deal and turn my life around like I have so many times; I idealized him before I met him. But he sure does have a way about him that I found incredibly appealing--i immediately felt safe with him.
Posted by garnet71 on June 30, 2009, at 18:51:52
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder?, posted by Phillipa on June 30, 2009, at 13:52:17
Well that makes 2 of us!!! : )
Join me, Phillipa, on my journey of getting "myself" back...my only worry is that I'll never get back to that optimal mental state I once was lucky enough to have.
Posted by Phillipa on June 30, 2009, at 21:55:28
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder? » Phillipa, posted by garnet71 on June 30, 2009, at 18:51:52
Sure I'll join the jorney. Love Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on July 1, 2009, at 12:29:15
In reply to Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorder?, posted by garnet71 on June 29, 2009, at 21:47:29
Garnet,
I think the others spoke better than I can. Right now I just perform when needed to be with others and then I lapse right back to my deadened self.
I agree though I don't think you suddenly developed this personality disorder I think that your coping mechanisms are just beginning to fail and you are reaching out to someone, (P-doc/t) to hang onto to in order to stop the spiraling down feeling. This is how I feel.
I am sorry. i too used to be so much in control and moving forward and it all grind to a halt. And since then I am adrift.
I wish I could offer words of wisdom but can't so just accept the little bit of comfort I can send your way. The others spoke well.
just hang in there.
rsk
Posted by garnet71 on July 1, 2009, at 20:26:32
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » garnet71, posted by rskontos on July 1, 2009, at 12:29:15
Thanks for the comforting words. I always seem to assume, first emotional reaction - that everything is related to some kind of personal deficiency I have (comes from self esteem problems). While its silly to think one can 'suddenly' become a needy, dependent person, that's how these thoughts come about in my mind.
I really do need help, not needy, childlike help, but just regular, plain old social support help.
Yesterday I went to social services through my school and got help and support. Today I talked to my advisor and got help and support. It's true if you ask for help, there are people willing to offer support. People are just like that. Yesterday, I was thinking, if someone came to me for help, I'd be happy to help them. I have weird feelings (self esteem again) about getting any sort of 'special treatment', and its not really special treatment, but a new friend at school encouraged me to seek support as she used some of the same services. After talking to her about it, I saw her seeking help that she needed to be a lot healthier than my reluctance to ask....
There's only so much others can do, but there are a variety of things that can be done to make stressors more bearable, and I shouldn't be afraid to ask for help. I've really awakened to some of my hidden, underlying emotions, and these new realizations are tough to sort through at first. Someday I'll get there.
Posted by rskontos on July 1, 2009, at 22:00:29
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » rskontos, posted by garnet71 on July 1, 2009, at 20:26:32
Yes you will get there.
I understand I have an extremely hard time asking for help because I would be devastated if I was told no.
take care and good luck
rsk
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 22:14:37
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » garnet71, posted by rskontos on July 1, 2009, at 22:00:29
One of the best things that my therapist ever drilled into my stubborn head, or slowly wore away there, was that there was nothing wrong with asking even if the answer was no.
I still get embarrassed, maybe even briefly shamed or humiliated, when I hear the "No". But my overall view of it is different than it used to be, and I can shake it off as long as the no was reasonably polite.
He says that if I ask, the answer *may* be no. But if I don't ask, the answer *will* be no, since no one can read my mind.
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 22:21:26
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » rskontos, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 22:14:37
I'm thinking that it might have something to do with boundaries?
If we grew up with people who said "How could you ask that of me?" as if asking was the same as importuning, we may have gotten the message that to ask for something was to force something on someone else. But they aren't the same. It's possible to do both at the same time, but the very act of asking is not an intrusion. It's more of a knocking at the door of the other person's boundaries. The other person is free to say yes or no, and their yes or no is not a rejection of us, just a declining of the request.
I used to find it all far more shameful than I do now, tho remnants of shame cling.
Posted by garnet71 on July 1, 2009, at 22:51:37
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » Dinah, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 22:21:26
Well I grew up walking on eggshells; I wasn't usually allowed to talk around my father, let alone ask for anything. Meanwhile, my mother pushed me away in neglect, dealing with her own problems and sorrow and my father's abuse, while directing all her energy to catering to my father trying to make him happy. Our emotional needs weren't met because everything revolved around making father happy. My mother was codependent, still is (noticed with my sister recently), and enabled his alchoholism, abuse, behavior. An example how she rewarded him for going to the bar--she would make 2 dinners every night, macaroni and cheese or hot dogs and beans for us, then a nice dinner for my dad when he came home from the bar at 9 or 10. We weren't allowed to eat food that was designated for 'him'; there were only certain foods designated for us.
Started school at 4, working at 10, etc. Pushed to be self-reliant so she didn't have to deal with us. My father was way too much for her to deal with, and she never wanted to have us. We were always blamed for 'ruining' her life while growing up. She created a role for herself-playing the victim - enabling other's self destructive and abusive behavior then turning around and playing victim. Example - my sister was doing hard drugs for years--so my mother paid her monthly rent and all her bills for 5 years, dwindling her retirement away, but turning around and complaining to the family how her daughter/my sister has ruined her future. When I'd question her, she's say of my sister "she says she's going to pay me back someday". We're talking about over $80,000 here to support my sister's drug habits.
I think it was because her self esteem was so low, she had to make herself into a victim to justify her existence. She has been in denial her whole life. It is really sad, but there's nothing I can do about it anymore. She is still in denial.
Don't know how this rant got started, I guess just trying to remember emotions and how they translate into my underlying thought process and behaviors today, just as I try to understand my Mom's behaviors and how they affect me today.
I don't remember getting rejected specifically, just remember always being in fear and not being allowed to talk around my dad, while mother didn't protect any of us--she was very submissive; I don't remember the emotions from childhood, just little clips, but started to when I felt regression and transference (weird huh?) The only thing I can do right now unitl I get back into therapy is still intellectualize everything, and connect current behaviors with past enviornment, as I just did.
It's interesting you remember asking people for stuff specifically. So boundaries-what if the boundaries are so strict or impossible for the children--while mother had no bounaries in terms of father--how does that translate, or am I looking at that concept incorrectly?
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:14:59
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » Dinah, posted by garnet71 on July 1, 2009, at 22:51:37
Well, in general terms, I think it would mean that you were taught that asking for something was an intrusion to your parents. Either because they were aggressive (your dad) or overwhelmed by their own needs (your mom). If you grew up believing that asking for something was intruding on another, you would consider it vaguely wrong to ask, and a "no" would tell you that your asking was one of the wrong sort.
But that it is possible to see a request as being not like an intrusion and a no as not being a sign that the request was wrong.
My therapist did that by demonstrating good boundaries. Showing that my asking for something did not intrude on him because he could always say no, and that saying no did not mean I was wrong to ask, it just meant that for whatever reason he could not answer in the affirmative.
I don't think I can explain it as well as I see it in my mind. The whole boundary thing with my therapist was so enormously helpful. Well, this aspect of it was anyway. My family of origin had very poor boundaries of every sort. It was hard to tell where one person started and the next stopped.
My therapist clarified where he ended and I started both in actions and in words. My request was mine, and didn't intrude into his boundaries because he didn't feel compelled to answer yes and he didn't feel angry that I asked. My request was mine and he considered it and answered yes if he could and no if he couldn't and was sensitive to my feelings and sorry at my distress without letting them seep into him and have him become either angry or feel put upon.
His answers, yes or no, were the same way. They were clearly part of him, not me. If the answer was yes, it was because he was genuinely ok with saying yes. If the answer was no, it was because he didn't feel able to say yes. It wasn't a reflection on me at all. So even if I felt briefly angry or hurt or embarrassed or ashamed, those feelings didn't last because there was no intent on his side to do anything but answer the request.
I know that doesn't make sense. And to some extent he expressed these things to me, but I put my own words to them. To a greater extent he showed me. In that sense it wasn't intellectual at all. It was a visceral incorporation of something he was conveying. More the way a child is supposed to learn from a parent than the way a student learns from a teacher.
Hard to explain.
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:16:17
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » garnet71, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:14:59
hmmm... I do think there was a period where he encouraged me to ask the most outrageous things of him so he could say no, and I could get used to it.
But knowing me, I probably refused to do it. Or did it once with poor grace and a red face.
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:20:56
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:16:17
> hmmm... I do think there was a period where he encouraged me to ask the most outrageous things of him so he could say no, and I could get used to it.
>
> But knowing me, I probably refused to do it. Or did it once with poor grace and a red face.Hey!!!
That wretch set it up so that either way it would be practice. If I said no, then he had asked and I had said no, and he took it in such a way as to demonstrate what accepting a no meant if you had good boundaries.
I wonder if he was that smart?....
Posted by garnet71 on July 1, 2009, at 23:50:08
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:20:56
I think you explained that well, but i'm just confused. I read about boundaries a while ago, but feel I never understood the concet.
This is where I'm confused--so how does his saying yes/no affect your personal boundaries if you were worried about intruding on his? I think I could use some of that practice too. lol
So how can accepting an answer, like you wrote here, have anything to do with your personal boundaries? What I understand is that boundaries affect action, but it's like you are talking about the result of the action. So (and this likely sounds so stupid to be asking) boundaries have 2 components--action/reaction, as opposed to just action?
"If I said no, then he had asked and I had said no, and he took it in such a way as to demonstrate what accepting a no meant if you had good boundaries."
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2009, at 0:12:25
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » Dinah, posted by garnet71 on July 1, 2009, at 23:50:08
I *think* what I mean is that good boundaries involve all aspects of knowing yourself to be distinct from others. Part of that is recognizing that someone saying no does not affect you as a person or reflect on you as a person. The "no" comes from them, and involves their abilities and limits, and does not mean anything about *you*.
So my "no" had no ability to make my therapist feel bad about himself, because my no was my no. It didn't change who he was.
I think we think of boundaries as a stop sign. And certainly in therapy they appear to be that. But I think boundaries are more than that. Like cell walls maybe? They have purposes in all directions. They keep stuff out, and they maintain the integrity of what's inside.
Boundaries can be used as a bludgeon, at least it feels that way, when they're used to keep people out. But boundaries don't need to be about keeping people out. They can also be about allowing people to be close and to on occasion permeate those boundaries.
Don't hesitate to ask me more questions. Often I find that if I rephrase things often enough I eventually manage to be understandable. :)
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2009, at 2:00:46
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » garnet71, posted by Dinah on July 2, 2009, at 0:12:25
Sometimes I wish my therapist posted here, because I know he explains things so much better than I do.
At least I think he does...But then he might read my posts, and he's promised never ever to do that.
Posted by Garnet71 on July 2, 2009, at 2:41:46
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde, posted by Dinah on July 2, 2009, at 2:00:46
Oh, you're referring to it in terms of identity. I understand it when using that term.
Here's a good article:
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=10179&cn=91
I have had boundary problems some of the time, but not consistently. I'm not yet sure what made those cases different. I don't usually feel personally affected by strangers, but say when I get accused of doing something I didn't do by a boss/coworker, I tend to get upset about it. I always thought it was because when I was little, a crayon was left in one of the pockets of me or sister or brother, and went thru the dryer and ruined a bunch of clothes. My mom must have been really upset about it and I remember we all had to stand down there around the dryer while my father yelled at us until we admitted which one of us "put" the crayon in the dryer to ruin the clothes. I was scared to death. He beat us all after that because no one admitted putting the crayon in there, my brother was beat so hard I was terrified seeing it. I'm thinking the crayon was accidentally left in one of our pockets. I had thought maybe those issues stem from being accused (and there were other times) had something to with that, but I guess not. I don't remember all the emotions, but remember being scared. And my father's pupils always got real small when he was angry.
But you got me thinking again, thanks.
Posted by rskontos on July 2, 2009, at 10:53:08
In reply to Re: Suddenly develop Dependent Personality Disorde » rskontos, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 22:14:37
Good point.
rsk
This is the end of the thread.
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