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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on July 3, 2009, at 5:56:25
In reply to Re: Xanax CR is completely overrated, posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 3:36:30
Are you ok?
It belatedly occurred to me that my accepting your assessment that she is no longer helpful might have been unsettling to you since I normally am in favor of working to repair a long term relationship.
I'm not necessarily right you know. The way you wrote about her reminded me a lot of how I felt when my therapist was discombobulated. In fact, he uses that very phrase too. And in him it usually means that he's all upset about stuff in his personal life and is unable to be the sort of therapist I need him to be.
The last time that happened with him, he managed to pull himself together with me even before the crisis had passed. At least enough to be fully present with me. I think it's possible with her too, but she doesn't seem to be accepting the responsibility or being self reflective enough to acknowledge and repair her lack of presence.
But that could be purely projection on my part based on my experiences with my therapist. If it would be more painful to go than to stay, then maybe it isn't yet time.
Posted by antigua3 on July 3, 2009, at 9:58:12
In reply to I think I'm done with T, posted by TherapyGirl on July 2, 2009, at 18:39:59
I'm really sorry about all this. You know my T's husband died earlier in our therapy and it did take a long time for her to really come back, so I know how you feel. They think they're there, but they aren't, and all the arguing in the world can't make them be what we want them to be.
You don't have the time for her to heal, and she can't seem to discover the strenght inside of her to help you heal. I'm sorry it is such a mess. I do think you should go back one last time, though. For your own sake, I don't think you should leave things hanging.
Wishing you the best of luck,
antigua
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:24:45
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on July 2, 2009, at 21:11:08
Yes, at least I have Bayleigh. I honestly don't know how I ever got along without her.
I'm still pretty convinced that it would be a mistake to find a new therapist. I may change my mind later, but I really am burnt out on the drama.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:26:39
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T » TherapyGirl, posted by twilight on July 2, 2009, at 22:15:19
Thanks, Twilight. I do understand, even though I'm p*ssed. The problem is not just that she's not herself, it's that she's retiring the end of December. So it was really important for her to be able to deal with this enough to be effective and that just hasn't happened. She probably should have just retired after he died instead of coming back and pretending to be a therapist. Because she really couldn't be more different than she's been.
I do appreciate your support.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:32:40
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T » TherapyGirl, posted by Daisym on July 2, 2009, at 22:37:12
I am angry. You may be right about a final session, but my best guess is that she wouldn't deal with even that well enough for it to be of any benefit to me. So I think I have to figure this out on my own. She really is very out of touch with herself and with me.
It's very sad and I was very hopeful that T, of all people, would be able to help me navigate a goodbye in a healthier way. She could have if she was herself. But it's just not going to happen.
One of the things she told me last night is that she's moving Jan. 1 or close to it. In my opinion, especially given her emotional state, she should have delayed the moving until AFTER she retires so that she could devote her energy to helping us all through this process. Instead, it continues to be all about her. I can't tell you how very different that is from her core personality. And she won't admit it. She keeps saying it's my filter. That may have been true when I was so depressed, but I've been much better these last couple of months. And I'm experiencing her ineffectiveness exactly the same way.
She also brought up last night that she knew my birthday would be difficult (it's 3 weeks after she leaves and the anniversary of my life falling apart this past January) and she thought it would be important for us to have contact. But it will be too soon for her to be back in the area, so we'll plan a phone call. I can't tell you how cared for I feel in response to that.
Thank you for being here in this awful place with me, Daisy. I really appreciate it and your wisdom.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:35:22
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T » TherapyGirl, posted by antigua3 on July 3, 2009, at 9:58:12
Exactly. She won't even be honest about it. She thinks she's doing all of this right. And what she's doing is setting me up over and over. She asked me last night how much contact I thought I needed after she retires and what kind of form it should take. I looked at her and said, "Why are you asking me that when you know I don't get to pick?" It just feels like she's toying with me. And, of course, I was right. She had already decided that we could have contact (a phone call or whatever) once/month. So WHY is she asking me things she's already decided??????
I get what you and Daisy are saying about a final session, but I just don't see it helping because of the space she's in. She's not my T anymore and she certainly isn't my mother.
Thanks so much for hanging in there with me, though. I know you know how difficult this is.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:38:18
In reply to Re: Xanax CR is completely overrated » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on July 3, 2009, at 5:56:25
I'm not really okay, but you were completely right in your assessment and I was already thinking the same thing.
I'm so sad that I can't say goodbye to the therapist/mother who I've loved and felt connected to all these years. But she's not there anymore, so saying goodbye to this person is really nothing but frustrating.
I also suspect that it has not been a good thing for me for her to consult someone, especially someone who's never met me. I briefly thought about forbidding that consultation last night (can I even do that?) before I just decided I still wasn't going to get what I need from her.
She's just toying with me now.
Posted by antigua3 on July 3, 2009, at 19:20:56
In reply to Re: Xanax CR is completely overrated » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:38:18
I don't think she's toying with you. I don't think any of this is intentional. Perhaps she thought she could this, but she seems like she's just lost.
antigua
Posted by Dinah on July 3, 2009, at 19:38:48
In reply to Re: Xanax CR is completely overrated » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:38:18
((( Therapygirl )))
It's possible I'm not at all right. It rings too many bells for me. I might be projecting my own experience of feeling alone in a room with my therapist onto you.
I wouldn't want my therapist to get a consultation. My therapist used to feel completely differently about long term therapy than he does now, and I'd hate for him to get his notions of proper termination from someone who really doesn't get it (the way he used to not get it.)
For what it's worth, your situation came up in therapy today. Because I can see myself being exactly where you are in a few years. My therapist spoke with more honesty than usual. Or perhaps not more honesty, maybe he just delved into places he usually doesn't go. From what he said, I don't think this is anywhere near intentional on her part. I mean, the leaving is, but her responses are probably not. He says when he is discombobulated (I told him your therapist used that word too) he was just so wrapped up in holding his own life together that he couldn't think clearly about anything. He admits that he doesn't cope particularly well in his own crises, while he does very well with other people's crises.
I can see being angry. I'll be angry with my therapist when he leaves me in body or in spirit, no matter what the reason. I'll be mad at him if he dies. But I'm guessing you can acquit her of deliberately toying with you. She's maybe just not as put together as we tend to think our therapist/mothers are.
I think the important thing at this point is that you do whatever you need to do to keep yourself safe and get through this as best you can. If that means seeing her until you no longer can, then do that. Or if it means making the break before she hurts you more, then that is what you should do. If seeing another therapist to process this will be helpful to you then please do consider it. But if facing into the wind with just family, friends, and dog at your side, and without a therapist, is what is best for you, then this friend will totally support you in that.
Posted by Daisym on July 3, 2009, at 22:33:33
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2009, at 18:32:40
My mother's husband died 2 1/2 years ago. She isn't the same person at all now. The first year was especially hard because she bounced between being angry at us (her family) for "not understanding that she might not be able to be there for us" to weeping with strangers in public. My mother is the most put-together, contained individual I know, so this part was particularly shocking. The hardest part for me was that she couldn't see herself as less functional. I kept encouraging her to carve out space to grieve and she would make herself as busy as possible and then crash down.
I'm not excusing your therapist, but guessing instead that she just can't see herself. She keeps putting it on you because she has to.
What a sad place that leaves you. I know you love her and you have every right to be angry. It feels like she gets it half right sometimes and then wrecks it with whatever she does next.
I agree with Dinah. Do what you need to do for yourself. And that may change from month to month. Your therapist reminds me a little of my kids trying to leave home. Moving is hard, they push me away - then they blame me and say I'm happy they are out of the house. Separation is just really darn hard for humans.
(((Therapygirl)))
Posted by rskontos on July 5, 2009, at 15:13:42
In reply to I think I'm done with T, posted by TherapyGirl on July 2, 2009, at 18:39:59
Therapy Girl
After reading all the posts and responses, the old saying "Can't see the forest for the trees" comes to mind. She really can't see the harm she is doing on her clients, especially you, when she is not there and thinks she is. Denial is hard enough on other family/friends but when you are a professional dealing with others people lives and family like a therapist does it is so hard when they are psuedo-present.
I am so sorry for you that you must go through this, but hopefully, therapy has helped enough in the past and you have made enough progress that you can know when something is good or harmful.
I know that this is not the ending you hoped for and maybe one day she will emerge from her grief to realize the damaging effects this all caused.
But please do what you must to protect yourself. Her statements that she is saying to you is exactly what she would say to her daughter I think indicates that she is indeed trying to believe she is doing the right thing but she is not.
She really should realize as a therapist that if she says something and it hurts you then it was wrong. period. It would be one thing if this all occurred during an ongoing therapy relationship and it would eventually get all worked out but she is suppose to be helping you with the event of her retirement. Which means the relationship is coming to a close, things said then are so important being the last of a relationship and its ending for those in therapy is crucial. Crucial to your longterm benefit.
I don't think she can see all this and that saddens me for you. You have strengths that you must call on to help during this time and vent here as often as you need it.
If in your heart you feel going back for one more final meeting is wrong then do what your instincts tell you. I am not sure if you should or should not.
More hurt would be so hard and losing someone that has been there for you for so long is the hardest. I am sorry.
I wish you peace and some understanding in all this.
rsk
Posted by emilyp on July 5, 2009, at 16:35:13
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T » TherapyGirl, posted by Daisym on July 3, 2009, at 22:33:33
I do feel bad for you regarding the situation with your therapist. It is hard to lose someone you feel so close to. And yes, she does have a professional responsibility to end things properly. But consider for a moment the sadness and grief she must feel losing her husband. As someone else said, it is such a huge loss. My father was never the same after my mother, his wife of 40 years died. In fact, just three years later, he died. Although there was a true cause of death, when people ask how my father died, I frequently reply, he died of a broken heart.
Perhaps in the same way that you are having trouble adjusting to her situation, remember she must be having similar issues with her own loss. Is there a way that you can use that to create a bond (albeit somewhat temporary in light of her impending retirement) between the two of you? When my mother died, it was somewhat hard for my therapist to understand as he both his parents are still living. Yet, about a year later, his uncle, who he saw as a father, died. It gave us an experience to share.
If this does not work, you need to remember therapists are human. They cannot, despite our desires, always be there for us and they have their own issues. Perhaps rise above your sadness and anger and remember how she helped you. And give her the benefit of the doubt considering the huge loss she faces.
Posted by muffled on July 5, 2009, at 23:42:17
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T » TherapyGirl, posted by Daisym on July 3, 2009, at 22:33:33
((((((((TG))))))))))
Just all round its hard I reckon.
But glad you got a dog :)
Glad you getting along OK.
Up and down I guess for you.
But I admiring you plugging away.
I think losing your T gonna hurt like hell, but that it'll ease up some over time.
I really do beleive this.
Hope your doing OK.
Goto go.
M
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 6, 2009, at 21:24:49
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T, posted by muffled on July 5, 2009, at 23:42:17
Thanks, Everybody. I've had to start shutting it down -- am getting ready to spend two days with all of my relatives in pretty close quarters.
I haven't heard a word from T (big surprise) and at this point I don't know whether I will.
I'll write individual responses and any update once I get back home.
Thanks again for the support.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 16:46:09
In reply to Re: I think I'm done with T, posted by TherapyGirl on July 6, 2009, at 21:24:49
"Hi, TG, it's T. I just wanted to let you know that I got your message about not meeting Thursday and I want to respect what you need. I'm sad that we aren't able to get to a better place with this. Let me know what your plans are for next Thursday."
WTF am I supposed to do with that? I waited 5 days for that??????????????????????????
Posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 16:47:18
In reply to Re: The message she left, posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 16:46:09
:(
I wish I could call her and tell her that she's an idiot. Or perhaps not that. But something.
Posted by Daisym on July 8, 2009, at 18:44:17
In reply to Re: The message she left, posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 16:46:09
She really does sound like she is trying to leave the ball completely in your court and is refusing to see how deflated that damn ball is!
How about this - take a month off and see how that feels. If you can begin to let go of her, of the past and of the current angst, then maybe go see her to say good-bye. That way you are protecting yourself without making any final decisions one way or another about seeing her.
I know it must hurt so much. Every interaction steals a bit more from the stock-pile of the good relationship. I'd want to stop seeing her and live in my memories too.
Be gentle with yourself.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 20:57:55
In reply to Re: The message she left » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 16:47:18
Yep.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 20:59:31
In reply to Re: The message she left » TherapyGirl, posted by Daisym on July 8, 2009, at 18:44:17
Yes, I think a month (or more) off is what I need before I make a permanent decision. Another benefit is that perhaps she will be through the move at that point.
I can't think about it anymore tonight. My heart is broken in a million pieces. I can't believe this is the person I've been with for 24+ years. I just can't believe it.
Posted by muffled on July 8, 2009, at 21:36:39
In reply to Re: The message she left, posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 16:46:09
Mayhap I'll just be the devils advocate here.
But maybe your T just doesn't know what to do?
She is human, she's just a person who happenes to have some training, but she is not perfect.
Maybe there isn't an answer thats right in this whole miserable situation..
This whole thing just sucks all round.
This person has been your T for a very long time.
Its not really an average T relationship, and yet....she IS your T, NOT your friend. There is a HUGE difference....
Is she going to allow occasional contact, so that all is not lost? So that you can still know she is out there?
Maybe, in the distant future, things could be different, but not right now, not yet.
Its just a sad sad situation, I'm not sure what your T can do to make it any easier?????
I think the ball is in your court TG.
She will be gone.
Its going to hurt.
She will not be there to help you thru this.
You will need to gather up the tools she has helped you to find within yourself and deal with it.
If you can seek the help of others, then thats even better.
Cuz this is going to hurt.
Lots and lots.
24 YEARS.... :(
BUT,
this is a huge but,
you CAN get thru this.
Life will go on. Maybe not the same, but there can be goodness. You can contribute to this world. Like you already have! by giving your dog a good home.
I hate to seem so cold, but I am not sure what more your T can do at this point cuz she will be gone.
She can't really BE your T anymore with this leaving hanging over the therapy.
I like what others said, bout that maybe give some space, and try and keep the good times intact. Maybe write to her to say thanks for what she has helped you with thru the years. That this is hard, that you will miss her. perhaps wish her well.
But thats bout it.
Its awful, but then there are alot of endings in life. They hurt, but we keep going, somehow.
We just keep going and try and do what good we can.
TG, I really feel bad for you, and your T cuz she cannot help but care for you, it must be hard for her too. But she is doing the ethical thing too. She is not saying 'lets be friends', cuz that very rarely actually works. Just causes more pain ultimately...
My old T, who I wasn't with very long at all compareds to you, but it hurt to leave her. But I still have occasional email w/her, and its OK now. I just am happy to know she is OK. I b*llsh*t her and say I am OK mostly too. I guess I am really.
But on I go.
And I hope on you go too TG.
I think from what I have gotten to know of you over the years(is it YEARS?!) that you have much to offer.
So mebbe you can just keep bumbling along like me, and we do what we can.
I have a new T, she is OK. We SLOWLY developing some sort of a...gasp...perhaps...dare I say....a relationship...UGH, albeit an odd one...
anyhow.
I wish you the very best.
Just trying to throw a different perspective in there for you.
Like as not, I am way off base, wouldn't be the first time.
I just know, for myself, that I really really appreciate it when others throw stuff in my lap to think about, even if it hurts. Even if its wrong, sometimes it helps to get me to thinking and figgering stuff out, moving ahead.
So thats all this is.
I dunno enuf to know wassup really.
Please take care,
I want you to be OK.
With all due respect and caring at this crazy hard time.
Muffled
Posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 21:47:35
In reply to Re: The message she left » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 20:59:31
It's hard not to be cynical. They were fine with our being dependent when it was a source of income for them, and convenient for them. But then when it no longer is, we're supposed to just move on and not make things difficult for them.
My therapist swears he cares about me. He swears he'll see me as long as he can be mobile enough to get to some location and has his wits marginally about him. He says that even if that isn't possible, he'll arrange visitation rights for me. He says that now, and maybe he even means it now. Goodness knows I can tell he really does care about me as much as a therapist can care about a client and still have it be a useful therapeutic relationship. But that isn't all that much in comparison to how I feel about him. He says all that now, but one day he's going to hurt me so badly... And when he does, I'll bet he'll be annoyed with me for making things difficult for him.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 9, 2009, at 7:59:09
In reply to Re: The message she left, posted by muffled on July 8, 2009, at 21:36:39
Thanks, Muffly. I'll try to give her some of the benefit of the doubt, but it seems to me she knows what to do (I've asked for very appropriate things, in line with the boundaries we've kept all these years), but she just refuses to do it. I think it's more a matter of energy -- the energy she's using to grieve her husband and now the energy she's using to plan her retirement before she leaves. There's just nothing left for me, and I can't imagine there's anything left for her other clients either. But she won't admit it. That makes it very hard to deal with.
She has always said we would keep in touch. Originally, we talked about lunches; now we're talking about phone calls and coffee.
It's just too much to handle.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 9, 2009, at 8:02:38
In reply to Re: The message she left » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on July 8, 2009, at 21:47:35
Exactly. I'm not sure it's the source of income that makes them fine with the dependency, though. I think it has more to do with them really wanting to help us except, of course, when it inconveniences them. I've told my T a couple of times over the years that when stuff is going on for her, she suddenly wants to be a secretary instead of a therapist (meaning she wants a 9-5 job where no one is upset if she takes 2 or 3 weeks off in a row, etc.). She's doing exactly the same thing now. You'd think they'd train them better, wouldn't you?
In our first few years together, I was constantly worried about her abandoning me. She told me repeatedly that I was skipping ahead to the end instead of "enjoying" the beginning and middle parts of our relationship. I have to say now that the end has been even worse than my worst nightmare about it. I'm trying to hang on to all the good things I've gotten from her, but good Lord she's making it hard.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 9, 2009, at 8:05:03
In reply to Re: The message she left, posted by TherapyGirl on July 8, 2009, at 16:46:09
In a desperate attempt to at least feel better about how *I'm* leaving things, I left T this message:
"I have a couple of things I want to say to you and since I'm not sure when I'll see you again, I'm saying them on this voice mail. One thing that I keep coming back to from the session last week was your comment that this is who you are and maybe I don't know that about you. At the time I was horrified. I've known you for over 24 years and while I don't know all of the details of your life and I know you in a limited way, I've seen your heart. And I know that the person you are right now is not the person I've known for 24 years. One of the more helpful things you did for me last winter was to constantly remind me that I was still in there somewhere, even when I couldn't see it myself. I don't know if it works that way for you, but I want you to know that I still see glimpses of you. I'm sad that you are not yourself right now and that I'm not in better shape to just go with it, but I want you to know that I love you and I appreciate all you've done for me over the years."
I don't expect her to respond, because she might have to admit that she has nothing left to give her clients right now and I think that's the crux of the problem here. But at least I said it.
Posted by muffled on July 9, 2009, at 11:16:57
In reply to Re: My return message, posted by TherapyGirl on July 9, 2009, at 8:05:03
That was beautiful ((((TG)))) just like you.
Take good care.
M
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