![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 16, 2003, at 12:50:43
In reply to Re: Antabuse » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 15, 2003, at 19:31:47
Hi Katia,
Well, you're sure going through an upheaval as far as your chemistry is concerned. All of it, increasing Lam, decreasing Dep would be enough but add the alcohol withdrawal to it and it's no wonder you're feeling rocky. Plus, the more you write about your time in Scotland and the pregnancy, the more it seems like your psyche and your hormones never fully recovered and you've been running on a very low battery all this time. It's quite clear to me that not only does alcohol lift a dark mood (for a while at least), but there's also a huge energy jolt in it, all that D in the glass of D effect. I could always depend on whipping my exhausted, bored, depressed body into some kind of activity after a glass or two. So, if you're running on empty, the body must go through a hard time adjusting to no more of that false fuel, and it sure sounds like your energy has been depleted for some time now and you've been struggling so hard just to keep maintaining. I speak from personal experience. I can only trust that our adrenals will eventually heal and start working on their own steam instead of concentrated sugars that contain who knows what other crap in them.So far, I'm having good luck with Rational Recovery. It's taken some time to finally be ready for The Big Plan, in that I will never drink or use again. Whew! What a hard concept. But the Rational Recovery book is helping tremendously. Everytime I go to the bathroom I read another section and it's keep me on track - thank goodness we have two bathrooms in the house! I don't like the AA bashing in it at all, but he does raise some valid points along those lines. I just wish everyone could get along better. I do feel for you having to continually muster up the strength with your work situation. It's got to eventually get better but right now it must suck big time. Yes, the loss of the comfort and elegant rituals of drinking is deep mourning. Also realizing that eventually it will mean the loss of former friends and acquaintances who are not in alignment with your quest for a different life expression.
Yes indeed, the holidays suck. On one hand everything's so pretty and glittery and I enjoy that part of it - a chance to enter into a wonderland twinkly thing. But so much is expected of us to be merry and put on and go to parties that are really a drain, or else not have parties to go to and end up feeling alone. It's about the only time I wish I had children since it's such a close family time and everyone else, even close friends, get left out of the day. My Mom died the first week of December last year so I'm trying to prepare myself for that. I know it will be very hard, as evidenced by my meltdown in the Christmas aisles at Costco a few days ago. But I WILL NOT cop out and spend the precious and poignant time of this first anniversary soused up because I think I can't stand it. I know I can.
The 'lesser Antabuse' is Naltrexone and a holistic doctor mentioned it to me a while back, not for alcohol, but because it has a way of causing rebound sensitivity in the opioid receptors and he felt people with depression and fibromyalgia had a glitch in their natural opiod system. Small dose Naltrexone seemed to reset that glitch and allow the bodies natural opiods to do their job. But in larger amounts it quells the desire for getting high and getting high just doesn't work anyway so why bother. If it has that additional opiod thing then all the better.
I hope that you've found the right AA group, or another group, that will provide the support during the challenging holiday season. Here's a thought and one that I might take my own suggestion. Maybe going to a meditation retreat or Zen center where it would be tres uncool to imbibe could get a leg up on things and help to pass over that hump more gracefully. I know that when I'm feeling a good peaceful kind of feeling I don't really want to do anything to mess with it, it's enough. It's the giddy hypomanic merry happy that's a problem for me cause it's never enough, I just want to go higher. Well, if you've never been to the Tassajara Zen Center, you can't do much better than that. They're lightyears away from a liquor store in more ways than one. They usually close for the winter but I think there's something going over the holidays. Or any such place as long as not too expensive or there's a work exchange. There are so many retreat and spiritual centers and ashrams that have alternative holiday retreats and they're sounding better and better as I think about it. Breitenbush in Oregon is pretty fabulous and I know they have an extended holiday retreat. The thought of chanting and gongs and that deep sense of peace has it all over that bleary hangover shit. Love ya, Barbara
>
> I am afraid of the holiday season and may start taking that lesser "antabuse" one that you mentioned. just thru' Nov. Dec. Due to how hard it actually is to make the committment to stop and then do it, I can't indulge. Because once i start again, this soon into it, I won't stop again just b/c the holiday season is over and I won't have learned how to drink differently in the course of two months. I need two years I think for that. it trully sucks right now; hopefully I'll get over it. The holidays always suck for me anyway cuz' I'm normally alone(ish). I always managed by drinking my way thru' them (even when family is involved). It's a hard time. apart from when I'm happy and happily with family, I detest the holidays. i wish I could just depart away from the festivities and go to a culture that isn't doing that for two months. Maybe I'll survive.
> take care,
> katia
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 17, 2003, at 10:36:41
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 16, 2003, at 12:50:43
barb,,
i cant tell you enough how much your post above really touched me..
you are very wise and compassionate,,
even though it was not for me,,it help me dearly with some much needed insight,,
mabe i too can be sober for christmas,,first i have to get through tonight...
thanks again barb,,
you are a delight.
j
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 17, 2003, at 18:36:55
In reply to barb.., posted by justyourlaugh on October 17, 2003, at 10:36:41
Dear J,
Your kind words made my day, and believe me, I needed to have my day made. I'm still sticking with the abstinence and every day gets a little easier, mainly because I have more energy to deal with the ups and downs and feel prouder of my resolve. But today is mainly downs - and so it goes. Tomorrow is another day.Keep in touch, OK? - Barbara
Posted by puravida on November 7, 2003, at 20:23:57
In reply to Re: Antabuse » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 14, 2003, at 1:41:52
Hi Katia, Barb, JYL,
Sitting at my computer in the evening without a drink seems so strange...but it's gotten to be a habit over the past few years that has caused me to gain about 30 pounds and do some pretty silly things, not to mention all of the money I've spent on wine...so I'm trying to break it.
I was on the MM list earlier this year and absed for three weeks. The abs and the list helped me to drink less, and/or less often, but I like drinking way too much, and haven't been able to stop completely so I can get this weight off. I keep telling myself one won't hurt, but it's hardly ever just one or two.
So, here I am nosing around - and thankful Dr. Bob started this board. Earlier this year I got to the point where I didn't care that I was depressed - a new low for me. So I decided to try to stop drinking to see if it would help my mood. I posted on the other boards to see if anyone could tell me from experience that my depression would be better, but no one really did, at least that convinced me. But, I know it takes more than three weeks - so here I go again.
I don't have Rational Recovery, but I think Responsible Drinking may be along the same lines -my Friday night reading material... :)
Thanks - PV
Posted by katia on November 8, 2003, at 0:40:21
In reply to Glad you are here - » katia, posted by puravida on November 7, 2003, at 20:23:57
Hi Puravida,
Yeah, I'm not happy one bit about not drinking. i can't lie. it sucks. I know I'll be thankful one day, but it's just definitely NOT today. I've been "on the wagon" for about one month now, apart from two slips when I went camping alone. It's been hard. In combo with not drinking, I also quit Depakote (as I"m upping on Lamictal) and felt just awfullll.... for a good week. I think I might be coming out of it a bit. I upped the Lam. 100mg today; i think that might've helped. we'll see tomorrow.
I'm still in the stages where I feel like a pouty little kid cuz' I want my wine! Whahhhhhh.....stamp my feet I'M NOT HAPPY ONE BIT!!! sulk sulk sulk, hate every mintute of it!
yuk to sobriety and ever constant awareness. I want wine and that warm feeling that follows. The world is such a better place after one/two glasses. BUT, I'm resolved to kick it this time. The only things keeping me going is I think I might have the life I want if i quit AND I won't quit forever - just two years. By that time, the beast will be tamed, I know it will. and i will reintroduce alcohol, but in a controlled civilized way. I won't be in the same place as before so I won't need it like I did before because after two years I'll have evolved!
that's me.
good to know someone else out there is trying sobriety!
good luck to you.
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 8, 2003, at 11:19:21
In reply to Glad you are here - » katia, posted by puravida on November 7, 2003, at 20:23:57
Hi PV,
Glad you found us. My drinking time was always cooking dinner. I'd put on public radio, listen to Fresh Air, or The Splendid Table, or 'New Dimentions', have 1/2 to a bottle of wine and think profound thoughts. I adored the ritual, looked forward to it all day long. That nice warm glow Katia speaks of was waiting there for me no matter how crappy I felt. I could always depend upon feeling better immediately, could teeter over to the piano and think I sounded like hot sh*t, could write in my journal and consider myself another Hemingway (in more ways than one). Be the first and last one up on the dance floor, whip up some energy no matter how exhausted I felt.But like you, one never was enough and I'd usually come out to the kitchen the next morning feeling like I was run over by a Hummer and see the empty bottle and think 'now how did that happen?' The blank outs were concerning me, my husband's silences, my puffy face and body, the fact that I have fibromyalgia, on medication, supposedly having a spiritual practice and feeling like a hypocrite. When I was in the worst of my fibromyalgia and had to quit work and drop out of site I was too sick to drink for over a year and the taste of it nauseated me. It was hard to tell if I felt any better for it cause I was feeling like hell anyway. But as soon as I started healing that little tickle got the best of me again.
It got got the point that I knew every time I'd give in after swearing the next morning I'd 'never do it again' that I had a problem. But, apart from the pleasure the feeling gave me I now know after being off it for a month (and, like Katia, a few slip ups that I consciously gave in to), I realize how it was masking some very deep anxiety and grief.
It's very very difficult to not have that comfort and soothing there at my command and have to deal with awful discomfort and not knowing what to do with myself with the anxiety. For me, it's the anxiety more than any depression. I feel like someone's taken a file to my nerve endings and like I'll scream from the onslaught of abrasive stimuli. If it gets too bad I'll take a benzo because I don't think suffering such stress is productive and I've never had a hankering for downers anyway. They just don't do for me what wine does and abusing them for a dull 'pleasure' seems pointless.
I never considered myself a 'drunk' since I never downed a bottle of hard liquor a day or anything drastic. It was only wine and only white wine that I craved, but there's something in wine that has my name on it. It must have some kind of alergen that is sweet poison to my body cause it creates personality changes, depression and sickness. Knowing I had to do something, I went to a few AA meetings, and even though I believe very strongly in a Higher Power and many of the precepts, the whole scene really turned me off, the little slogans especially. I ultimately did it myself with the help of books and that suits my personality the best. I wish there was a compatible non-AA group here in my little rural town but c'est la vie.
The first 2 weeks of abstinence were great and blissful. The clarity, energy, and feeling proud of myself were like a euphoria that was enough. I loved waking up in the morning after a refreshing sleep with no thick heavy feeling. But now I'm going through a missing it, like an old friend, and there isn't any quick way to comfort myself. Alot of unresolved pain is surfacing and feeling out of sorts in my body. I recall reading somewhere that once you stop drinking expect a good 6 months of now having to deal with the real issues you were avoiding. That makes alot of sense, but how does one do that and not cause the further harm of deep depression and anxiety? Yes, I know about exercising, yoga, relaxation, journaling, and these things help for the most part. So does having enough energy for the most part to pursue them. But still, I haven't created any dependable long term life changes yet and I'm dealing with some true grieving that feels like it may rip me apart. But I know it won't. I know I'm very very strong and resilient and this is just discomfort and won't kill me. This also has a real and honest feeling instead of the violent black demonic despair that would overcome me from drinking. It's hard but better than the alternative, cause that nice lovely glow would always morph into bad, bad energy. Keep in touch. - Barbara
>
> Sitting at my computer in the evening without a drink seems so strange...but it's gotten to be a habit over the past few years that has caused me to gain about 30 pounds and do some pretty silly things, not to mention all of the money I've spent on wine...so I'm trying to break it.
>
> I was on the MM list earlier this year and absed for three weeks. The abs and the list helped me to drink less, and/or less often, but I like drinking way too much, and haven't been able to stop completely so I can get this weight off. I keep telling myself one won't hurt, but it's hardly ever just one or two.
>
> So, here I am nosing around - and thankful Dr. Bob started this board. Earlier this year I got to the point where I didn't care that I was depressed - a new low for me. So I decided to try to stop drinking to see if it would help my mood. I posted on the other boards to see if anyone could tell me from experience that my depression would be better, but no one really did, at least that convinced me. But, I know it takes more than three weeks - so here I go again.
>
> I don't have Rational Recovery, but I think Responsible Drinking may be along the same lines -my Friday night reading material... :)
>
> Thanks - PV
>
>
Posted by katia on November 8, 2003, at 14:53:40
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » puravida, posted by BarbaraCat on November 8, 2003, at 11:19:21
hey Barb,
good to see you over here! Why not? You make me laugh. The image of you drinking, listening to the radio teetering over to the piano, thinking that you're Hemingway and then and then, well the next morning. How did that happen? We ask so innocently shaking our heads reaching for the coffee as tho' our sane little normally composed selves had "one night" of a bit too much; but that's just not like me at all "normally".
It's funny how we trick ourselves into thinking that it was being poured into our bodies without our will. but goddangit...I LIKE that feeling of cooking, listening and singing to music, drinking skunk blood (red wine for all of you who don't know) and letting the creativity juices flow, writing, playing the piano, dancing....
I was at a party last Sat. and barely made it thru'. Luckily I found a woman who was a ghost writer. She's always trying to get into my inner world and finally I let her because I couldn't talk to anyone else there - too loud and too bright, bottles of wine being passed under my nose. (luckily for my non-alcoholic beer). And I let her know what I was dealing with and hard it was for me to be there. She's known a good many friends/ex-husband who has either been depressed or bipolar. The instant understanding on her part made it bearable for me to be there. But the comments I heard from people: (mind you I wasn't drinking AND I was in that funk); I like the full of trouble Katia, not the good one. I like the drinking katia better. Remember you got the whole party dancing that time by insisting they turn off the Georgian (it was a Georgian feast - a friend had just come back from the country of Georgia) the Georgian music and play "I will survive" and you did a dance solo in the ring of tables. And then everyone else joined in. The whole night was a drunken debauchery. Even the uncle of my friend who is normally composed was calling himself Boris drinking a bottle of vodka and ended up throwing up on the way home.....
anyway, I'll get that spirit back, but not from spirits in the bottle! I just need to relearn. And honestly, I don't want to be the one who humiliates herself (from my perspective everyone else loved it) and gets up and dances in front of the entire party....
you've been there , i"m sure! But my point is, thing's are changing and people notice.
BTW, did you actually go to a couple of AA meetings recently?
take care,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 10, 2003, at 19:30:04
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 8, 2003, at 14:53:40
Hi Katia,
>I like the full of trouble Katia, not the good one. I like the drinking katia better.**Oh, I hear you, honey. I'm boring myself to pieces with my normal sane slightly depressed little good-girl self. If it weren't for the payback I'd be sloshing back a glass of swampwater as we speak.
>>And then everyone else joined in. The whole night was a drunken debauchery.
**It's amazing how people really want to just cut loose and give over to that wild spirit that lives inside them. At least in our culture people are so repressed and afraid of making 'fools of themselves'. Sometimes it takes just one person to ignite that spark. I've never been afraid to do that. I'm even not 'afraid' to do it when sober but I'm not always interested in it or don't have the energy or can't find the flame or passion in it. It just seems like too much trouble. Maybe that's just depression talking.
> anyway, I'll get that spirit back, but not from spirits in the bottle! I just need to relearn.
**Amen, Amen again, Sister! Just this morning for the first time in oh, upteen years, I put on my friggin running shoes that were covered with dust and took to the road. Actually, it was a dream, a very powerful dream I had last night where my Voice, my higher self who comes to me now and then told me to 'just put on my running shoes and all else will come from there'. I heaved and ho'd and had to stop frequently but afterward I felt a tingly lovely buzzy feeling that I vaguely remember from when I used to be a runner and super fit. Maybe what we'll find is a different kind of spark and spirit. I keep it in my mind that if I keep up these healthy ways in 10 years time I'll look and feel gorgeous instead of like a decrepit old bag.
>>And honestly, I don't want to be the one who humiliates herself (from my perspective everyone else loved it) and gets up and dances in front of the entire party....
**The truth is that 90% of those there truly wish they had the cojones to be that audatious. But yeah, sometimes it goes a bit too far and is hard to live down. When I get inhabited by 'the little girl', the one who displaces me entirely, the one who is pretty pissed off and doesn't give a rip - and she is definitely NOT my 'inner child' - well, things have gotten pretty interesting and I wasn't even there to enjoy it.
>>you've been there , i"m sure! But my point is, thing's are changing and people notice.
**Part of the sadness for me is that I know I'll probably have to drop the friends who still have an alcohol jones.
> BTW, did you actually go to a couple of AA meetings recently?
**No, not recently but about 5 years ago, I tried it about 5 times. I also have a very good friend who'se been in it very actively for 4 years. I always stumble on the powerless disease concept and have a very hard time with God as we know 'Him' and the emphasis on a Christian belief system that invites all sorts of fundamentalism in that I can't ignore or filter out. Like I mentioned before, I have a very strong connection to Spirit, believe wholeheartedly in a Higher Power, and love Jesus with all my heart. But I can't just sit there and pretend I can abide this generic white-bread Higher Power dude who seems to be invoked at every meeting. I also don't agree with the continual meeting-going nor do I have the time. And out here in this rural conservative logger's bastion I doubt things will be any more enlightened. What helps me, besides gritting my teeth, is attending weekly sangha at a Buddhist monastery and hanging out with the other 1/2 of my friends who don't drink. Unfortunately, they are not nearly as much fun as my wild and crazy friends. Although they're a bit more coherent as the evening wears on. I guess, dear Katia, we'll have to find a way to remain wild and crazy and not ruin our brains or livers. Lotsa love, Barbara
> take care,
> Katia
Posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 1:57:13
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 10, 2003, at 19:30:04
>
> I keep it in my mind that if I keep up these healthy ways in 10 years time I'll look and feel gorgeous instead of like a decrepit old bag.
** Yay to that. Do you have a timeframe for no drinking or is it for good? or at least one day at a time "for good". It's so hard......!!! still! but I figured, I've been drinking, on and off for almost twenty years, since age 14. it'll take more than one month for this to get easier.> **Part of the sadness for me is that I know I'll probably have to drop the friends who still have an alcohol jones.
Ditto.
>
>> What helps me, besides gritting my teeth, is attending weekly sangha at a Buddhist monastery and hanging out with the other 1/2 of my friends who don't drink. Unfortunately, they are not nearly as much fun as my wild and crazy friends. Although they're a bit more coherent as the evening wears on.** yeah, it's just not quite as fun; but way more fulfilling in the long run. It's just about relearning I think. I'm much happier even now to hang out with Buddhist meditators, than to drink myself silly than I was even three years ago. It's losing it's excitement. I just want to be able to enjoy some wine with dinner! just not right now - whaaaahhh!
See ya later.
love,
katia
Posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:31:34
In reply to Re: Glad you are here - » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 10, 2003, at 19:30:04
(tail between the legs katia reporting...)
It was inevitable! With my mood as of yesterday, I went to work on fire ready to fight with anyone. It was super busy and I got two tables - one French with 7 of their own wine and another one with three of their own. Each INSISTED that I try some of it. After the second (OH! I would love to, but I quit drinking), I said OK, I'll TASTE it. And those tastes that were kept given to me totalled about 2 glasses +. God. I suddenly felt silly for being so down before and WHAT WAS THE FUSS ABOUT? Life is so easy with a bit of wine. An instant medication. I was tolerable and tolerant and funny/chatty. Went out after work and had my first martini and a comso after that. oh, and a merlot.
came home with the bartender (no sex.....thank god) and had a beer on the porch talking about the difference between intelligent people, and geniuses. Smoked a lot of cigs. Gave away a much cherished autographed book by Ken Wilber (speaking of geniuses....). And woke up this morning with my clothes still on and a waste basket near the bed (speaking of idiots....).
I'm having trouble accessing the ole' brain.
boy oh boy. They say in "recovery" that part of it is relaspe. Oh goodie - that gives me an excuse.
But it is interesting monitoring this sober thing and seeing exactly WHY i drink. it's so about self-medicating for me. I don't crave it any other time - apart from eating really good food and wanting wine to complement it.
I really hit a wall yesterday. It really felt inevitable. i'd lost all inner resources and strength.
One quick thought - Barbara - two days ago my breasts started hurting - PMS signs. That's also the day I "lost" it and continued to lose it.If one gets their hormones checked, what is the best time to do it?
AND do the levels change thru' out the month?
If I pay all this money, I want to know once and for all.
Do you know any of this?
how are you doing?
it seems you're taking a psychobabble break.
love,
katia
Posted by puravida on November 15, 2003, at 23:56:06
In reply to got drunk, period » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:31:34
Hi Ladies,
I'm still glad you are here - though I must say I go through so many swings of mood - one day I am feeling badly that I drink at all, the next, as you said "I suddenly felt silly for being so down before and WHAT WAS THE FUSS ABOUT? Life is so easy with a bit of wine." I don't know either.
I have noticed that right before my period, I have a tendency to get really drunk if I drink. I am usually not noticably moody (to myself, anyhow), but drinking definatly gets to me more.
Here's a thing - I remember when I was in college, I thought - gee - I could go either way. I could wear the blue suit and be the responsible, conservative citizen, OR, I'd be just as happy rolling into my local at the same time each day or night to hold down a barstool. Sometimes I wonder if my drinking seasaw isn't just an attempt to be balanced in my life. It's so easy to get sucked in - either way. We drink because our friends do and its socially acceptable - or not (AA) - either way we are choosing other people's values over our own. And, who says having three beers over three hours is OK or not?
Katia - I'm not sure how old you are (I'm nearing 40) but I have had an issue with feeling sore and lumpy, and they say that caffiene has a big impact on tissue density. So, it could be worth a look, if you do drink caffiene, and might save you some $$ if the symptoms are caffeine related as opposed to hormone related.
Well, off to bed from me -
> (tail between the legs katia reporting...)
> It was inevitable! With my mood as of yesterday, I went to work on fire ready to fight with anyone. It was super busy and I got two tables - one French with 7 of their own wine and another one with three of their own. Each INSISTED that I try some of it. After the second (OH! I would love to, but I quit drinking), I said OK, I'll TASTE it. And those tastes that were kept given to me totalled about 2 glasses +. God. I suddenly felt silly for being so down before and WHAT WAS THE FUSS ABOUT? Life is so easy with a bit of wine. An instant medication. I was tolerable and tolerant and funny/chatty. Went out after work and had my first martini and a comso after that. oh, and a merlot.
> came home with the bartender (no sex.....thank god) and had a beer on the porch talking about the difference between intelligent people, and geniuses. Smoked a lot of cigs. Gave away a much cherished autographed book by Ken Wilber (speaking of geniuses....). And woke up this morning with my clothes still on and a waste basket near the bed (speaking of idiots....).
> I'm having trouble accessing the ole' brain.
> boy oh boy. They say in "recovery" that part of it is relaspe. Oh goodie - that gives me an excuse.
> But it is interesting monitoring this sober thing and seeing exactly WHY i drink. it's so about self-medicating for me. I don't crave it any other time - apart from eating really good food and wanting wine to complement it.
> I really hit a wall yesterday. It really felt inevitable. i'd lost all inner resources and strength.
> One quick thought - Barbara - two days ago my breasts started hurting - PMS signs. That's also the day I "lost" it and continued to lose it.
>
> If one gets their hormones checked, what is the best time to do it?
> AND do the levels change thru' out the month?
> If I pay all this money, I want to know once and for all.
> Do you know any of this?
> how are you doing?
> it seems you're taking a psychobabble break.
> love,
> katia
Posted by katia on November 16, 2003, at 13:26:58
In reply to Re: got drunk, period, posted by puravida on November 15, 2003, at 23:56:06
> I have noticed that right before my period, I have a tendency to get really drunk if I drink. I am usually not noticably moody (to myself, anyhow), but drinking definatly gets to me more.
**Hi puravida,
Yes, I definitely go wacko at that time (and if I drink, I get really drunk and do stupid things). that's why I was trying to corrolate below. A day before my "crash", my breasts started to get sore (a sign of PMS for me). Wonder if this lastest bout was from hormones. It's a combo of things - my mood disorder, not being high enough yet with my Lamictal; not yet at a med combo that works for me (bipolar II/mixed). and add the PMS thing into the picture; it's hard not to go back to our old pacifiers that comfort us instantly, like vino.I drink one-two cups of coffee a day. AND in my life there have beens months and months where I stopped it AND was still depressed and/or wired the same.
> Here's a thing - I remember when I was in college, I thought - gee - I could go either way. I could wear the blue suit and be the responsible, conservative citizen, OR, I'd be just as happy rolling into my local at the same time each day or night to hold down a barstool. Sometimes I wonder if my drinking seasaw isn't just an attempt to be balanced in my life. It's so easy to get sucked in - either way. We drink because our friends do and its socially acceptable - or not (AA) - either way we are choosing other people's values over our own. And, who says having three beers over three hours is OK or not?**It's totally an individual thing. For me alcohol doesn't work; it's just I need to break it.
> Katia - I'm not sure how old you are (I'm nearing 40) but I have had an issue with feeling sore and lumpy, and they say that caffiene has a big impact on tissue density. So, it could be worth a look, if you do drink caffiene, and might save you some $$ if the symptoms are caffeine related as opposed to hormone related.
**I'm 33 yrs. old. What do mean "sore and lumpy". Are you talking about your breasts? And tissue density for the whole body? And what sort of impact does it have?
At this point, unless I KNOW something isn't good for me - I'm just not quitting things unnecessarily. I've already quit wheat and soy and sugar and alcohol (except for my slipup). Coffee is what I look forward to. One thing at a time!
thanks for your reply.
katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 11:30:21
In reply to Re: Antabuse » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 14, 2003, at 14:53:13
It was 1997 when the word "lush" went from a joke to reality. 1997: the year from Hell. I have the little bottle of Antabuse hidden in the back of my medicine closet. When binging becomes an exact science, knowing how far one can go before the body won't let you stop without a fight.
I know all this stuff. Hello everyone. My name's Kim.
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 11:52:58
In reply to got drunk, period » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:31:34
Hormones! a question i can answer. To get your bloodwork done to test for hormones, you will have blood drawn twice: at the peak level of your cycle, and at the lowest level. Your doctor can give you the dates to have the blood drawn if you give him/her the date of your last period.
Posted by katia on November 21, 2003, at 16:32:04
In reply to Hello Girls, guess I've found home, posted by KimberlyDi on November 21, 2003, at 11:30:21
Hi Kim,
Thanks for the messages. Did you ever take Antabuse? How did it go?Have you had a hormonal test? If so, how has it helped with this knowledge of differentiation between what's hormonal and what's mood related?
it's all so intertwined.
Katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 24, 2003, at 10:38:46
In reply to Re: Hello Girls, guess I've found home » KimberlyDi, posted by katia on November 21, 2003, at 16:32:04
I took Antabuse. Started out with the fear that 1 drop of alcohol even 2 weeks after stopping Antabuse would cause intense sickness and agony. Had to read all labels for lotions, shampoos, hairspray, makeup and perfume for "alcohol" ingredients that would be absorbed thru the skin and cause an adverse reaction. When dining out, had to question the waitor that no wine was used in the sauces, etc. to avoid becoming sick. It's a major pain in the buttocks. Antabuse doesn't help with cravings. It makes you too afraid to drink while you're on it.
I had hormonal bloodwork done to rule out early menopause causing my depression. My levels were normal, so the bloodwork didn't help me at all, except to rule out a cause.
Hope this helps some.
KDi in TX
> Hi Kim,
> Thanks for the messages. Did you ever take Antabuse? How did it go?
>
> Have you had a hormonal test? If so, how has it helped with this knowledge of differentiation between what's hormonal and what's mood related?
> it's all so intertwined.
> Katia
Posted by katia on November 24, 2003, at 15:13:37
In reply to Re: Hello Girls, guess I've found home » katia, posted by KimberlyDi on November 24, 2003, at 10:38:46
> I had hormonal bloodwork done to rule out early menopause causing my depression. My levels were normal, so the bloodwork didn't help me at all, except to rule out a cause.How old are you? Can't a person have problems with their hormonal levels without it being related to menopause - and get help with it?
I'm 33 and have ALWAYS had crazy PMS. My mom didn't go into menopause 'til she was in her 50's.
-katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 24, 2003, at 15:31:15
In reply to Hormones » KimberlyDi, posted by katia on November 24, 2003, at 15:13:37
I'm 34. I suppose a person can have hormone problems w/o it being tied to menopause. I used to hear about women being on birth control ONLY to regulate their periods. I hated being on the pill because it really messed with my emotions.
My doctor had me tested because many women are on anti-depressants for depression when they should be taking hormone replacement therapy/whatever instead for their menopause symptoms. ONE doctors opinion, not my own. Frankly, her talk of using a sweetpotato-based cream to increase testosterone wasn't floating my boat any. She's a holistic doctor.
Get your levels tested. You'll never know the correct answer for you until you do.
KDi in TX
> > I had hormonal bloodwork done to rule out early menopause causing my depression. My levels were normal, so the bloodwork didn't help me at all, except to rule out a cause.
>
> How old are you? Can't a person have problems with their hormonal levels without it being related to menopause - and get help with it?
> I'm 33 and have ALWAYS had crazy PMS. My mom didn't go into menopause 'til she was in her 50's.
> -katia
Posted by katia on November 24, 2003, at 17:50:29
In reply to Re: Hormones » katia, posted by KimberlyDi on November 24, 2003, at 15:31:15
Hi,
Do you know if there is a good time to get them tested? I'm sure mine flucuate. I'll look into it.
thanks for your input.
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on December 21, 2003, at 14:14:28
In reply to got drunk, period » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 14:31:34
Hi Katia,
Finally responding to this, sorry it's taken so long, but you know where I've been. Yep, me too, a few times. It sure starts out way too easy. Oh, I'll just have a beer out here at the pub - s long as it's not wine I'm OK. Then it's 'oh, what's one glass of wine? Such an excellent meal out here at this restaurant just wouldnt be the same'. Then it's, well, what the hell, I might as well save some money and buy a bottle instead of paying those expensive prices out - but just one glass'. A few hours later I realize I'm in a very intense bordering on abusive 'conversation' with my husband about dumb but very intense things. This happened a few times recently. In fact, the night out with the 'fiends' was like this, I got very intense and would normally take alot more responsibility for it had they not flung the 'you are evil, demonic and dark' and not dragged my Mom's death into it as being a 'depressing and dark subject' even thought it was exactly one year ago she died. Oh sigh, I don't want to go there again, but I have to acknowledge that had I not drank and smoked way too much pot I'd have been able to keep a much more level head - and probably have popped her a good one for saying that about my Mom. So, after every overly indulgent time I'm 'good' for a while and it seems I learn my lesson a little more - but not enough to just quit the bilge water. There's something more going on, a reason I don't understand.It's only white wine I crave. All the other forms of alcohol prime the pump but that pump WANTS white wine. I wonder why? What is there in white wine that tickles that itchy spot like nothing else? If I'm tired it gives me energy, if I'm anxious it calms me, a mixed state it puts me back on Earth. I don't understand what chardonnay/pinot grigio (a good buttery one, mind you, not those acidic 'grassy' kinds) give me that the rest don't and that I obviously at some level think I need? Can it be that those buttery ones have more sugar and that what I'm really going through it hypogycemia? That will cause anxiety, depression, etc. A good shot of sugar will stop those hypoglycemic symptoms in their tracks. But then the next day (oh gawd!) is just awful. If I'm not puking I feel like it all day. Burnt out, fried all over, depressed, ashamed, shaky. These are hypoglycemic symptoms to a T (except for the shame part).
I guess that's why in AA meetings they have bowls of sugary sweeties around. Have you ever looked into this yourself? Honestly, if I just drink vodka or scotch straight up I can drink a fair amount without feeling the same way as I do after one glass of wine. We talked about the glass of dopamine connection and maybe it's time to revisit that one. There some reason why we're craving this stuff. If we're feeling anxious or whatever, why don't we crave an Ativan the same way? I realize some people do have a jones for benzos for just this reason, but WE don't. But if it's hypoglycemia, why don't I crave a dark chocolate Haagen-Daz bar the same way (well, it's a pretty close race). Your comment about craving it more, feeling it more while PMS is a very valid one. I've read in a few places that it's very common and of course, has to do with our hormones, but I don't remember the details. Put your thinking cap on, girlfriend. We need to figure this one out. - Your tail dragging buddy, Barbara
> (tail between the legs katia reporting...)
> It was inevitable! With my mood as of yesterday, I went to work on fire ready to fight with anyone. It was super busy and I got two tables - one French with 7 of their own wine and another one with three of their own. Each INSISTED that I try some of it. After the second (OH! I would love to, but I quit drinking), I said OK, I'll TASTE it. And those tastes that were kept given to me totalled about 2 glasses +. God. I suddenly felt silly for being so down before and WHAT WAS THE FUSS ABOUT? Life is so easy with a bit of wine. An instant medication. I was tolerable and tolerant and funny/chatty. Went out after work and had my first martini and a comso after that. oh, and a merlot.
> came home with the bartender (no sex.....thank god) and had a beer on the porch talking about the difference between intelligent people, and geniuses. Smoked a lot of cigs. Gave away a much cherished autographed book by Ken Wilber (speaking of geniuses....). And woke up this morning with my clothes still on and a waste basket near the bed (speaking of idiots....).
> I'm having trouble accessing the ole' brain.
> boy oh boy. They say in "recovery" that part of it is relaspe. Oh goodie - that gives me an excuse.
> But it is interesting monitoring this sober thing and seeing exactly WHY i drink. it's so about self-medicating for me. I don't crave it any other time - apart from eating really good food and wanting wine to complement it.
> I really hit a wall yesterday. It really felt inevitable. i'd lost all inner resources and strength.
> One quick thought - Barbara - two days ago my breasts started hurting - PMS signs. That's also the day I "lost" it and continued to lose it.
>
> If one gets their hormones checked, what is the best time to do it?
> AND do the levels change thru' out the month?
> If I pay all this money, I want to know once and for all.
> Do you know any of this?
> how are you doing?
> it seems you're taking a psychobabble break.
> love,
> katia
Posted by katia on December 21, 2003, at 15:03:03
In reply to Re: got drunk, period » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on December 21, 2003, at 14:14:28
HI MISS BARBARA CAT!!!
Missed you.
I was writing this morning that I feel like I'm a prisoner to alcohol. It's so tricky. The brief moments that I tried to remain sober (five weeks), I got a glimpse of how huge this addiction thing is. While I'm in it, it doesn't feel big. There are lots of layers to come off. I finally just gave in for the holidays I'm not even going to try now.Your hangover description sounds like me. And I have to say since being on Lamictal at 200mg (and even lower dosages), I get WICKED hangovers. like someone steals my brain and hides it from me, then b/c of that I get disassociated feeling and then I get panicky and anxious and all day I feel like puking. BUT YET, I continue to do it.
I can totally relate to the reasoning of the beast. My latest thing is, "wow, i just discovered Italian (bigger ones) reds.". How could I possibly quit now? I have to experience them in all sorts of settings, with pasta and sausages, with blah blah blah. It's the tricks of the trickster. After the holidays I'm going to find a sponsor and find an AA group I like. Even as I sit here and write, my brain is thinking "ok, ok, we get your threat. We'll be good and never exceed two glasses at a time - just don't give us sobriety! we'll be good I promise!!!". It takes getting sober for me to understand all the layers of my relationship with alcohol. And I just started Lithium (Eskalith CR) 450mg a day for 12 days and then up to 900mg is that doesn't work. And I am hoping this works. So therefore, the meds will replace what the wine does for me. Isn't your dose 750mg? And Lam 175?
As far as about only chardonnays working for you, I personally think is just that everyone has their favorite - mine happens to be a delicious med-full bodied red in all forms. love those buttery chards too mind you...
it does the trick for me too - when I'm tired, it lifts me, when I'm mixed it soothes me, when I 'm depressed it brightens my day. I read somewhere where 60-70% of bipolars have substance abuse problems too. and the author said, it should be stated that bipolars "misuse" (not abuse) (in intent anyway - there's certainly abuse that happens) because it's a form of self medication. Now that I have the meds and if they work, I don't need booze anymore in this way.
It's sooooo tricky Barbara, as you know. God, we are trying though - bless us.
Sooooo very good to hear from you sweetie.
Sending you a cyber hug ((()))).
Love,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on December 21, 2003, at 18:49:55
In reply to Re: got drunk, period » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on December 21, 2003, at 15:03:03
> HI MISS BARBARA CAT!!!
> Missed you.**You too, KittyKatia.
**About being a prisoner to alcohol, there are so many addictions. My husband has tried to stop smoking so many times, knows full well what it's doing to him, yet every time he succumbs to 'just one' at a party or where ever and then, bam!, back again. He's the same way with pot. I can take or leave either one, smoke a cigarette or pot every few months and it's more than enough (interestingly, it's mainly after I've had a few snootfulls that I feel like smoking anything).
>>I finally just gave in for the holidays I'm not even going to try now.
**I'm with you there. It feels like torture to be at a Christmas gathering where everyone is toasting, singing silly Christmas songs and I'm sitting there practically drooling saying 'oh no thanks, I'm fine.' Bullcrap! It's all I can do to not grab a bottle and chug it in a closet til I too feel like prancing around pantomiming 12 Days of Christmas with the rest of them.
>
> >
> I can totally relate to the reasoning of the beast. My latest thing is, "wow, i just discovered Italian (bigger ones) reds.". How could I possibly quit now?**Isn't it a clever Beast? It's so fascinating to watch it squirm when faced with NEVERMORE!! I've lately started seeing it as Gollum and alcohol as The Ring. It's a scary thought but when I'm at the point where I feel like I'm going to shatter I'm usually not thinking clearly enough to remember or care about Gollums.
>>Even as I sit here and write, my brain is thinking "ok, ok, we get your threat. We'll be good and never exceed two glasses at a time - just don't give us sobriety! we'll be good I promise!!!".
**Oh yes, yes. My brain is going 'I need to find a way to offset the damages/hangovers so that I can enjoy a nice drink every now and then like other people do. If they can, so can I. Yes, yes, it just takes a little research and then once I hit upon the answer to being able to drink without any consequences, why, then I can go on to win the Nobel Prize! And so, for such a worthy cause, of course I'll have to experiment on myself.'
>>It takes getting sober for me to understand all the layers of my relationship with alcohol.
**The weird thing is that if I hang out with the discomfort for a few days I usually feel so much better that it becomes more of a reward than giviing in to the craving. So why do I want to ruin it when I'm not even really craving it anymore? This time it's taking alot longer to reach that healthy state since I'm still on the edge of major emotional pain. It hasn't resolved yet and I'd sure prefer to feel that warm fuzzy glow than this hurting dismal reality right about NOW!! But I'm gonna just breathe and wade through it and pray tomorrow will be the day I wake up and go 'Oh, yes! I feel so much better and so glad I resisted feeling better for so long'.
Whoa, hello there little Gollum voice: 'Ah, we don't have to have wines. No, no, remember those herbs steeping in that alcohol in the kitchen cabinet? A cup or two of that will do just fine, yes, yes, just fine. With added medicinal herbal benefits! Yes, my Precioussssss...'
>>So therefore, the meds will replace what the wine does for me.
**Boy, I sure hope so. The best of luck to you. I'll keep you in my prayers and hope getting a good dosage works to scratch that itch for good.
>>Isn't your dose 750mg? And Lam 175?
**I've been on 600mg lithium citrate which I think is generic eskalith. I had a bad thyroid reaction from even that much. I was already hypothyroid and holding steady but my levels started ping-ponging after starting lith. I'm currently at 200mg Lamictal.
I don't know what to do here. I've been wondering if I'm one of those people that doesn't have a good reaction with the higher Lam dosages others report. I hate to start lowering it or dickering with anything until I'm more stable emotionally but I have to admit that my life has not gotten any better - au contraire! - since increasing it a month or so ago.
Have you ever tried Wellbutrin? I think I asked before but don't remember your answer. I may break down and ask my pdoc if it might help. You know, the dopamine connection and all. But with the bipolar/anxiety thing I'm wary. The last time I briefly tried it was when I was on astronomical dosage of Zoloft and was jumping around all over. Oh, f*ck these medical darkages!!! There's got to be something better than this dartboard method.
> As far as about only chardonnays working for you, I personally think is just that everyone has their favorite - mine happens to be a delicious med-full bodied red in all forms.
**Hey, here's some ammo for your Beast! At least the reds have that resveritrol stuff and will protect your heart. You'd be nuts to pass up a chance to keep heart healthy! Especially in such a yummy form that all those wonderful robust meal choices would taste like pallid shadows of themselves without. Hey, I know! All I have to do is add some resveritrol or however the hell it's spelled to my chardonnay and there you go, Nobel Prize for me.
> I read somewhere where 60-70% of bipolars have substance abuse problems too.
**Yeah, it seems to be a universal thing. Again, I have to wonder 'why?' What's going on in our brains that makes alcohol work like nothing else? Including meds. My husband I mentioned about cigs? He could care less about drinking, take it or leave it. It makes him tired instead of perky. He tends toward the gray zone type of depression and couldn't be called bipolar by any stretch. So there's some key here and by God I'm going to find it! If for no other reason than there will be a whole bunch of champagne waiting for me when I win that Nobel. - Love ya, B.
Posted by katia on December 22, 2003, at 2:07:03
In reply to Re: got drunk, period » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on December 21, 2003, at 18:49:55
Hi Miss Barb-
>>few snootfulls that I feel like smoking anything).
**Snootfulls? of what?
I'm the same. I can take or leave pot. in fact I leave it all the time. cigs, occassionally, but then at times I'm replused by them.i know what you mean about just offsetting the craving and how better we feel in a few days time. god, it's really simple....I feel more in tune spiritually and everything when I abstain. It's really a wonder why I do it? As you said, when I feel like I"m going to shatter, I have to drink. and then it gets me on the ball of drinking again...vicious and cruel cycles.
> I've been on 600mg lithium citrate which I think is generic eskalith.I'm on the eskalith CR Li. Carbonate.
> I don't know what to do here. I've been wondering if I'm one of those people that doesn't have a good reaction with the higher Lam dosages others report.
**I"m wondering that about myself as well actually, prior to you saying something. All my hypo states left me long time ago.
> Have you ever tried Wellbutrin? I think I asked before but don't remember your answer.
**I only tried it for two weeks as that was the last one before I realized I was BP. and i stopped it. I would definitely begin that one as ADs go before anything else. give it a go - maybe lower the Lam. before you do it for anxiety reasons. Don't ya love being a dart board? Unfort. there's no other way to go. 50 yrs. from now (and hopefully sooner) people will look back and just shake their heads at how little we knew and what buffoons were are.
* yeah I wonder about that addiction thing too. Your husband has addictions, but not to alcohol.... what makes us be addicted? Maybe it's just our poison as cigs and pot are his.
keep in touch Barb sweetie-
Love,
katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on December 24, 2003, at 9:51:40
In reply to Re: got drunk, period » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on December 21, 2003, at 14:14:28
It's called "our drug of choice". For me, that's Jack Daniels (chilled in the freezer). Who were you and where were you went you first started drinking white wine?
I ordered Jack Daniels because my daddy drank that. When I first started drinking, I was newly single and out of an abusive 5-year relationship. Early 20's, feeling attractive for the first time ever, dancing until the wee hours of the night, collecting phone numbers left and right... it never got better than that.
Besides that, anything thing else that I ever drank/or take would be second place to me. Drinking Jack would be like coming home, and I'm a homebody.
My addiction is fascinating to me as well. Always wondering why.
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 15:14:44
In reply to Re: got drunk, period » BarbaraCat, posted by KimberlyDi on December 24, 2003, at 9:51:40
wow..just read all your posts and have to say that you guys raise some highly intelligent questions. red wine for me please, Merlot, if possible, but lived in Europe for 4 years, so have "enjoyed" them all. and only red wine. no wine, no drink. Wierd, huh?? and i know after the first glass if it's going to be "a night to regret." i should recognize those signs by now, but i choose not to. and yes, hangovers are hell and i don't have any other meds coursing through my brain. i can only imagine what AD's, benzos, or mood stabilizers would translate into the next morning. took Paxil for awhile but honestly..it only made me feel like drinking more...took away my fear. dropped it, but still have the fondness for red wine....maybe if i tried to stop overthinking this...yeah, right..
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