Posted by ace on October 4, 2007, at 1:46:36
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users! » ace, posted by Ron Hill on October 3, 2007, at 2:23:27
> Ace – The Nardil Champion,
>
> Hello Mate. Springtime coming down-under, aye Mate?Certainly is mate! I am feeling the heat very much so now. I prefer the winter:)
>
> Why did you reduce your Nardil dosage down from 90 mg/day in the first place? Why have you been screwing around with the dosage?Well essentially, I prefer to be on the lowest possible dose which retains efficacy. But I went too low!
> Could part of the problem be that you have your circadian clock out of sync by staying up until 4 or 5 am, and sleeping until 1 pm?Yes- absolutely. I am being obsessional here (suprise, suprise!) I am trying to do so so many things in such a short time. I work all night on study and other projects, am too tired to have a shower, and smoke and drink far too much coffee. I feel trapped but- know what I mean? It's like I feel I must do these things. I am getting older and want to achieve. But at the same time, I have no social life and am concerned about this- I do want to find a partner and have kids. But i do have to become far more self-sufficent and responsible. I am in a bad frame, but I will find a way out, somehow! I just put so much pressure on myself- and I feel very guilty if I am not doing something productive.
But you are absolutely right- I AM putting my circadian rhythm all out of wack.
> I’m the same way, Ace. I like to work in my home office until about 5 am and then go to bed. My energy kicks in at about 10 pm and stays good, until 5 am. Further, no phones ringing, wife has gone to bed, and I can totally focus on my work.I can understand. My neuroanatomy lecturer gave me the BEST description why some of us do this- she said at night 'the world goes away' We can have complete focus
> However, in doing this, I’ve got my circadian clock out of sync with the rotation of the earth, and as a result, I have lower energy during the day. Ace, could this be part of the reason for your bout with breakthrough depression? I don’t presume to know, I’m just asking.
YES- absolutely I think. It is not healthy to live a life in this way. I am not being sensible i.e. eating crap food, smoking. These things are not good. They are within my contol but, and I have to summon my discipline to change them.
Do you feel your late nights could contribute to any existing problems?
>
> For reasons that I will identify further down, the following tx is probably not appropriate for you. But, can I tell you about it anyway? Was that a yes? Good. Thanks Mate! Here goes:Ofcourse mate!!!
> Perhaps you could add-on between 20 mg/day to 60 mg/day of 2-phenylethylamine (PEA). Small open studies show that there is about an 80% chance that PEA will instantly snap you out of depression.Totally restricted in Australia to onle a couple of psychopathologies. However, i could get my hands on it due to my differential diagnosis. Did you see the studies in Pubmed?? I have thought of this before
>
> Ace, are you familiar with 2-phenylethylamine? PEA is a trace neurotransmitter endogenous to the brain. The trace amine is released in higher than usual amounts when people fall in love. You know the PEA feeling that I'm taking about, right?Yep, familiar with this all. Have to refresh a few things but! I am extremely interested in this as it correlates to some of my experiences with nardil.
The love-sick sap walks around happy and smiling ear-to-ear all day long. All he can think about is the new love of his life. This is PEA.
>
> For people NOT on an MAOI, the MAO-B (and to a much smaller extent, the MAO-A) metabolize PEA very quickly. Therefore, PEA cannot be used as an antidepressant for people that are NOT on an MAOI because the PEA does not last long enough in the brain. However, for a patient on a full dose of Nardil, the MAO-B and MAO-A are inactivated and, therefore, are not available to metabolize PEA. Under these conditions, PEA can be used as an add-on antidepressant. It should be noted that 5 to 10 mg/day of l-deprenyl is typically used as the MAOI, but studies show that Nardil also works.This is something I am DEFINATELY interested in. Thanks heaps for reminding me of this- i will print this message out.
> I am a rapid cycler, and I cycle with a period of 15 days, consisting of three days of atypical depression (no energy, no motivation, sleep too much, etc), followed by 12 days of normal mood state (3 + 12 = 15). Then the cycle repeats over, and over, and over, on an ongoing basis.
>
> Last week, during my most recent 3-day depressive phase, I added 30 mg/day of PEA to my current cocktail of Nardill (90 mg/day) and three AED’s (Trileptal, Lamictal, and Keppra). It was absolutely amazing how fast PEA took away my depression. I found it best to split the daily dosage in half and take the first half when I got up and the second half around mid-afternoon.How quickly was the depression alleived?
> Unfortunately, my PEA trial was unsuccessful because withdrawal from the PEA, after my three days of use, was absolutely horrendous!! In the long run, the "cure" was worse than my usual three days of depression.This reminds me of the mu-opiod stimulation i get from tramadol...It is unbelievable, but then the withdrawal is very hard.
> So, why not use the PEA all the time and, thereby, avoid the withdrawals? Well, for a few reasons. The endogenous levels of PEA are abnormally low during depression, but the PEA levels return to normal when the patient is not depressed. Therefore, it would raise my PEA levels too high if I were to add exogenous PEA during the 12 days per cycle when I am not depressed.
>
> Further, PEA acts like an endogenous amphetamine. The endogenous amphetamine is less mood destabilizing than an exogenous amphetamine. But none-the-less, some patients taking PEA on a long-term basis can experience anxiety and irritability.I will have to fully assimilate this all. Will print this out. This information is very helpful!
> Ace, if I recall correctly, I think that I remember that you have an anxiety disorder in addition to your OCD and atypical depression dx.Diagnosis (Ib really don't care too much for 'labels' but)
1. Depression
2. OCD (with mild psychotic ideation of a self-referential nature). Very Atypical.
3. Depersonalization Disorder with phobic Anxiety
4. GAD
5. Social phobia (this now has been eradicated due to Nardil)Plus I am sure of have Axis 11 issues.
So, long-term use of PEA might end up being problematic for you. Therefore, PEA is not likely not for you. But, thanks for letting me tell the story, Mate!!
ThankYOU for telling it! You really have done your research, which i feel is great. I feel too many 'patients' don't really care so much for doing any research into their conditions/drugs.
I feel this can be disempowering.
>
> You are a smart man, Ace. You will figure out the solution to this breakthrough depression.Cheers Ron- Your preety smart yourself! Thanks so much for everything mate- and I truly hope you stay in good health!
speak soon!
Ace:)>
> -- Ron
>
> Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling (15 day cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
>
> 600 mg/day Trileptal
> 200 mg/day Lamictal
> 875 mg/day Keppra
> 90 mg/day Nardil
>
poster:ace
thread:786414
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070929/msgs/786783.html