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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
First for the good news. After being on antidepressants for 23 years, I have finally worked my way off these meds and feel better than I have in years. This is how I did it: I did a lot of research on supplements and through trial and error found the following so effective I was able to get off antidepressants; Phenibut (phenominal to reduce anxiety), Tryptophan, Magnesium, Theanine, Niacine and B2. I take these at relatively high doses 3 times a day following meals. Now I feel better than when I was on antidepressants. But now for the bad news. I fall asleep just fine, but wake up about 8 times a night. Does anyone know of a supplement that would promote continuous sleep, preferably slow wave sleep?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Posted by Johnnybaklava on October 17, 2012, at 11:11:06
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
Congrats! Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you, but I have the same issue. When I feel good during the day, I tend to sleep lightly at night! Fish oil gives me what I call "surface sleep," so I switched to chia oil, which is better in that regard, but I still wake up a lot. For your situation, I would try reducing the theanine and magnesium toward the end of the day. I've always tried to like theanine, but it either depresses me during the day, or breaks up my sleep at night. I love magnesium, though I think it helps me fall asleep, but then has me waking up in the middle of the night. I might try leaving it by my bed so if I do wake in the night, I take it then, and see if that works. I've heard that a lot of people have that issue with magnesium. You might want to try taurine or gaba at night instead of the theanine. Also, I've had success with low-dow, time-released melatonin.
Posted by test_subject_99 on October 27, 2012, at 14:10:32
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
Valarian in a large enough dosage (twice what the label says) is great for sleep. The tryptophan you alread take can be taken at up to 5grams to promote sleep, with no side effects except sedation. Beware- DO NOT take hops (a herb sold as a sleep aid)if u suffer from Depression! it can cause melancholy. Always check the labal of herbal 'formulas'. And remember, beer is full of hops so avoid beer too.
Magnesium, calcium, zinc & B6 are all good for sleep.
Posted by Alan2102 on November 10, 2012, at 15:13:53
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
Congratulations on your success.
Have you considered just knocking yourself out with a trazodone? It is a drug, but a relatively good one:
-- nice serotonergic antidepressant, comparable to tricyclics in efficacy,
-- great as sedative/hypnotic with minimal or no side effects,
-- puts you to sleep, but more importantly improves the QUALITY of sleep (more slow-wave)
-- does not have troublesome effects on sexuality or bodyweight as do other antidepressants (and has actually been used to ameliorate erectile dysfunction caused by SSRIs).Not bad!
Good luck.
Alan
Posted by Alan2102 on November 10, 2012, at 15:17:41
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
Since you asked specifically about slow-wave sleep, I should have included this:
"trazodone significantly increased slow wave sleep (SWS), but no changes were observed in REM (rapid eye movement) sleep."
----------------------
J Nihon Med Sch. 2002 Aug;69(4):333-41.
Effects of trazodone and imipramine on the biological rhythm: an analysis of sleep EEG and body core temperature.
Suzuki H, Yamadera H, Nakamura S, Endo S.
Department of Neuropsychiatry, Nippon Medical School, Japan.
Abstract
Depression commonly involves abnormalities of the sleep-wake rhythm, the temperature rhythm, and other biological rhythms. The changes of these biological rhythms are caused in remission by medications. However, it has yet to be clarified whether the biological rhythms are changed as a result of recovery from depression or from the direct pharmacological effects of the antidepressants. Therefore, we have undertaken a study on the direct effects of the antidepressants trazodone and imipramine on the biological rhythms of healthy volunteers. The study involved 12 healthy male volunteers (ages 21 approximately 28 years, mean age 23.9+/-1.7 years) who had given written informed consent. Placebo, trazodone, and imipramine were each administered in a single blind manner four times a day, during the three-day study period. The total daily dosage of trazodone was 100 mg (50 mg in one subject), and of imipramine 40 mg (20 mg in one subject). Subjects were submitted to polysomnography (PSG) and body core temperature (rectal temperature) measurements during the study period. We compared the data concerning the antidepressants to those of the placebo. The results show that, with regard to the sleep rhythm, trazodone significantly increased slow wave sleep (SWS), but no changes were observed in REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. Imipramine significantly decreased REM sleep and prolonged the REM cycle. With regard to the temperature rhythm, trazodone showed a tendency to advance the appearance time of the minimal temperature. Imipramine significantly lowered the maximal temperature and decreased the difference between the maximal and the minimal temperature, but no changes in the phases were observed. Neither antidepressant had any effect on the temperature cycle. Trazodone and imipramine showed different effects on PSG. Furthermore, they had different effects on the temperature rhythm. The changes of the sleep-wake rhythm were greater than those of the temperature rhythm. Although
the two antidepressants had different mechanisms of action, it is worthy of note that both directly influenced the biological rhythms of healthy volunteers.PMID: 12187365 Free full text
Posted by Alan2102 on November 10, 2012, at 15:21:11
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
PS: I also should have added (should not have assumed): it will not just PUT you to sleep, it will KEEP you asleep... or at least so I think (experience of self and others, plus readings). It really does knock you out. If you take too much, you'll be groggy in the morning. If that happens, halve the dose, and observe.
Posted by jpa on November 11, 2012, at 12:17:12
In reply to Re: Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by Alan2102 on November 10, 2012, at 15:13:53
thanks for the suggestion.
An earlier poster suggested valarian root and it has helped. I only wake up once a night, take I little more GABA(phenibut) and sleep soundly till morning.
As an aside, I'm on my sixth week of no meds. My mind feels good, but I feel sick to my stomach. After 23 years on antidepressants, it is hard on the body when you stop taking them. But, friends, if you can replace meds with supplements, all your body functions will return to normal. It may not be the best route for everyone, but well worth considering.
John
Posted by jpa on November 12, 2012, at 8:29:52
In reply to Re: Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by Alan2102 on November 10, 2012, at 15:13:53
thanks for the suggestion.
An earlier poster suggested valarian root and it has helped. I only wake up once a night, take I little more GABA(phenibut) and sleep soundly till morning.
As an aside, I'm on my sixth week of no meds. My mind feels good, but I feel sick to my stomach. After 23 years on antidepressants, it is hard on the body when you stop taking them. But, friends, if you can replace meds with supplements, all your body functions will return to normal. It may not be the best route for everyone, but well worth considering.
John
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 19, 2012, at 11:53:35
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
Congratulations on finding a nutrient regimen that makes you feel good. That's what we're all about here. That's a great start! As far as good sleep, unfortunately, depressives have awful sleep architecture. Since I quit smoking, I sleep a lot better now. Also, don't drink too much alcohol. You might need a low dose of a sleep med, but if you don't want to go that route (and I understand wanting to do it naturally) you might consider adding some natural vitamin E, vitamin B1 (thiamine), and a small amount of melatonin for starters. I have definitely found improvement in sleep with these three vitamins, but it might not be enough. It's worth a shot, though. I still wake up at least once or twice each night, but then fall back to sleep. Sometimes, a very small dose of xanax can help, or even trazodone, but I assume you don't like taking meds. I would definitely try the vitamins first. There's also the possibility of taking maybe 0.5mg of Risperdal at bedtime. I'm not a doctor, but there are things that can help you sleep better. If the vitamins don't help, consider talking to your GP about it. He may be able to help if all else fails. Good luck and here's hoping you sleep better soon. You'll figure it out. Happy Holidays!
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 19, 2012, at 11:55:55
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
Oh, there are also OTC sleep meds, but these can have their own side effects, so try with caution. I personally like the natural vitamins. There are also herbs that can help, like valerian or chamomile too. Exercise too helps sleep. Good Luck!
Lao
Posted by jpa on December 25, 2012, at 16:09:40
In reply to Success with supplements - now for the sleep part, posted by jpa on October 16, 2012, at 21:27:17
Through trial and error I've found that tryptophan actually caused me to dream too much and was responsible for multiple awakenings during the night. Once i stopped taking tryptophan I started stringning together 4 to 5 hours of continuous sleep at a time. That's a significant breakthrough for me.
JPA
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